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Morakthesage 
Forum Newbie 
Joined: June 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
 Posted: June 08 2009 at 15:57 |
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He's prog related becuase of "Chariots of Fire" and other output from the 80's, no doubt. The whole prog-related catagory is pretty worthless in my eyes, way to many of those bands don't strike me as having an ounce of prog, others seem totaly prog. I guess as long as he's on the site, that's all that's neccicary.
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AmericanProgster
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: September 28 2008 Location: Manassas, VA Status: Offline Points: 228 |
Posted: June 08 2009 at 19:49 |
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But why should that one decade define him when he just spent the previous decade making fully prog music? I know he released a million albums in the 80s, but he also released a million albums in the 70s which better defines he contribution to prog anyway. So to me it seems in a case like Vangelis or Goblin (Italian electronic group who did the same thing with soundtracks) if their first decade is spent making whatever subgenre of prog, then that band should be categorized by that because it better represents their contribution to prog.
Besides if were going to base it off something like that, then I say we should change Genesis and Yes to prog related because of their 80s/90s output. It's practically the same thing.
But we wouldn't do that and why? Because their 70s output is what people are looking for when it comes to their contribution to prog not 90125, The Big Generator or Abacab, We Can't Dance. So why should Vangelis be any different? Edited by AmericanProgster - June 08 2009 at 19:54 |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: June 08 2009 at 19:53 |
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I don't care where he gets stuck, his stuff at his best wasn't merely prog related, but what the heck, you can find a lot of artists there that might be better elsewhere.
Here's my rundown of what I have on CD: Albedo 0.39 1975 - Great Heaven and Hell 1975 - Great Spiral 1977 - Great China 1979 - Great Opera Sauvage 1979 - Good Antarctica - The Original Motion Picture Soundtrack 1983 - Good Direct 1988 - Good City, The 1990 - Good Voices 1995 - Good Oceanic 1996 - Good El Greco 1998 - Could do without Mythodea 2001 - Could do without Vangelis "related" 666 1971 - Interesting Jon and Vangelis Short Stories 1979 - Great Friends Of Mr. Cairo 1981 - OK Stuff I have on LP somewhere Beauborg - Run away!!! Run away!!! Hypothesis 1971 - Never made a strong enough good impression on me to for a CD The Dragon 1971 - Never made a strong enough good impression on me to for a CD It matters not where an artist is stuck as long as they're here and you can review their work. Not only that, but as you can see from previous posts, they get moved around. I saw the Art-Rock genre split into three parts. I wasn't paying too close attention, but I saw the creation (may have been a split) of three metal genres. It's all good. Don't sweat the details too much. Don't be afraid to make your case for a change either. Just be polite about it. We're all here for the love of music after all. Well, most of us.  By the way, I have an old Keyboard Player (I think that was the magazine probably around '80) article/interview with him. If God were a keyboard player, Vangelis has more keyboards than God. Edited by Slartibartfast - June 08 2009 at 20:15 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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AmericanProgster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 28 2008 Location: Manassas, VA Status: Offline Points: 228 |
Posted: June 08 2009 at 19:55 |
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Oh and by the way, thanks for the suggestions! I'll be on a lookout for them.
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 4202 |
Posted: June 09 2009 at 01:15 |
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^My two favorites. (you should seriously re-listen to both) Americanprogster: There's a lot of reccomendations in this thread I linked to previously. |
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
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russellk
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 28 2005 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 782 |
Posted: June 09 2009 at 02:46 |
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It's simply astonishing that neither Vangelis nor Jarre are in the progressive electronic subgenre. I mean, it beggars belief. What's even more astonishing is that they didn't come on to PA as prog-related, they were moved OUT of the progressive electronic subgenre.
Moving them to prog-related because of their supposedly commercial output runs directly counter to the clear policy of this site as operationalised in so many cases. YES remains symphonic despite their 80s output, as does GENESIS and a whole host of others. What I would really like is for the person responsible to join this thread and explain to us all why this was done. Please, Phillippe, we'll try to understand. Why does it matter? Because if we are to trust this site for ANYTHING, we must have the confidence that bands are placed because of a consensus, not because of the views of an individual. And that bands are prog not because of how 'good' or 'commercial' they are, but because they meet the definition of progressive. I doubt anything will change regarding these two outstanding artists, both of whom are essential progressive musicians. My suggestion would be for Symphonic Prog to look at addressing them both. After all - and I'm going to develop this argument and present it carefully sometime soon - there aren't any other categories defined specifically by the type of instruments used. We don't have Progressive Guitar of Progressive Flute. Why Progressive Electronic? Every single Progressive Electronic band here can also be assigned to another subgenre. Note that this is from someone who loves electronic music and has sampled the genre widely. I understand that the above is somewhat of a rant, but that's because I've read the explanation as to why JMJ and Vangelis were ditched. |
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
Posted: June 09 2009 at 05:28 |
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^ I was kind of waiting for you to appear, Russell.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17799 |
Posted: June 09 2009 at 09:40 |
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Both of these fall into the classical music tradition more than anything else ... the tenor that solo's in El Greco is phenomenal ... and deserves mention. If her name was Renata Tebaldi or Birgit Nilsson, and managed by Karajan, you probably would say this was wonderful ... but because it is "Vangelis" it might not get the listen it deserves.
It is beautiful ... and similar to it is a piece that Riuichi Sakamoto does for the soundtrack of "The Last Buddha" which also has a phenomenal soprano solo.
Please give these folks a chance and allow them the ability to experiment and compose ... it is what will make their music create history ... and I, for one, am extremely proud that I recognize that beauty and treat it as such.
I do fail to understand why some of us have an inate dislike for classical music ... when all of this is just ... music ... classical, prog, whatnot is not important ...
El Greco, is Vangelis' finest work ... and if I ran the Symphony here it would get played tomorrow!
All of this "prog" music was never a rejection of past musics at all, and in fact most of them played some classical music so that we would make the connection ... same music/new instrument ... or in some cases new music/new instrument ... but in the end, the tradition is the same.
Even though some people can not listen to "Beaubourg" for example, there is a nice bit going on underneath, and I think that it really tells you that Vangelis is of the positive persuation and would rather pursue the beauty in us than anything else ... and as such all of a sudden the music takes on another dimention ... experiment to learn and find new sounds and things ... the moment is the political rally sounds that come up ... and then are faded down ... I always thought ... this said it all about Vangelis and his desire to make music that challenges us inside and takes us to another level ... and this, my friends, was done way before "new age" was even born in America as a commercial event ... instead of anything else.
You did not mention Jon's Olias of Sunhillow ... which is a magnificent album all around and is made so only because Vangelis has the talent to illustrate Jon's mind and words so much better than Rick Wakeman, Patrick Moraz or anyone else since ... that is not to say they were not good, they were, just different.
There was a radio interview that made the rounds of some radio stations and he is very clear about how he composes and creates ... and has less to do with the machines themselves than it does anything else ... the machines are just the "translator" of the vision ...
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007 Location: Vitória, Brasil Status: Offline Points: 7971 |
Posted: June 09 2009 at 10:45 |
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Wow, this is actually one of my favorite albums ever.  |
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007 Location: Vitória, Brasil Status: Offline Points: 7971 |
Posted: June 09 2009 at 10:47 |
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Great post Russell. |
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004 Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
Posted: June 09 2009 at 10:55 |
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Regarding the initial question, I have given up trying to unlock the secrets of the universe.
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lucas
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 06 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 8138 |
Posted: June 09 2009 at 15:35 |
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Well, I found lots of artists not tagged as they should :
- a piedi nudi : RPI -> actually progmetal
- finneus gauge : folkprog -> actually jazz-fusion
- ACT : eclectic prog -> actually metalprog (eclectic prog sounds like a pleonasm, prog is already a mixture of various music types)
- Vangelis : prog-related -> actually progressive electronic (anyone in electronic music will cite Vangelis as one of the most representative of the genres)
- Mike Oldfield : crossover prog -> actually it's symphonic prog (became pop as of 1983, but didn't Yes and Genesis became as well at that time ?)
I think it's important to tag correctly a band as it helps someone who digs a sub-genre discover its most important representatives.
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 17586 |
Posted: June 09 2009 at 19:39 |
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Direct (1988) is Vangelis's best '80s album, IMO. Rather underrated. The City, which came after, was a much more understated, more ambient affair. Not bad, but not the follow-up I was hoping for at the time. |
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russellk
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 28 2005 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 782 |
Posted: June 10 2009 at 00:57 |
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Ever one for the main chance, Ricochet I do feel passionately about this, but I'm attempting to address it politely and with some grace. I also don't have to get my way. (Though I might have to growl at the dog.) |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17799 |
Posted: June 12 2009 at 11:03 |
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Btw ... it's quite vogue in Europe for new film makers to use their friends and create music for their films and such ... this is only not done in America because the movie industry is so slanted and twisted into the commercial brain washing that you get every weekend as a "blockbuster" ... or something that sold millions ...
Budgets for films in Europe are 100th of the amount of money that is burned in America ... and as such, using your friends that can play keyboards really well to create something new, that eventually became Goblin with Dario Argento, or Vangelis (he was already there), Tangerine Dream (they were already there) ... or Popol Vuh with Werner Herzog ... what you get is something different and new, which is not appreciated in America because of the power of the news media only supporting the studios they own.
It's an important distinction ... and also one of the reasons why you do not see so many of the musicians from the 60's and 70's develop into film and other arts in America ... there is no outlet for these arts for them ... Edited by moshkito - June 12 2009 at 11:04 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17799 |
Posted: June 12 2009 at 11:21 |
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Starblast ... Vangelis cut his teeth with Aphrodite's Child ... which was way more prog than a lot of things at the time ... Speaking of that ... the biggest "prog" connection is a man that never uses the word ... and no one ever pats him in the back (I have !!!) ... for being big enough and unafraid to put so many of these strange things together and on disk ...
Mr. Gomelsky ... take a bow! ... ohhh btw ... you should really check up the list of stuff he produced! It is by far the most impressive "prog" list of any you will ever come across ...
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Why is Vangelis only considered Prog-Related?
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Slartibartfast wrote: