Why is Vangelis only considered Prog-Related?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=58584
Printed Date: December 28 2024 at 10:12
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Why is Vangelis only considered Prog-Related?
Posted By: AmericanProgster
Subject: Why is Vangelis only considered Prog-Related?
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 17:48
|
Well I guess the subject of this thread says it all. I'm sure the reason is stupidly obvious, but I'd like to know the exact reasoning. Thanks! ------------- https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach" rel="nofollow - https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach |
Replies:
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 18:04
|
Hi there. Vangelis was actually in progressive electronic a while ago, but was moved (together with Jarre) upon the developement of genre, based on his commercial output (and general style) by the genre's main specialist. While Vangelis's music is arguably not so onesided just on the commercial, new-age and all that - even myself think the early stuff, up to the electronic rock in Albedo or Spiral could be highlighted under prog credentials - the links to the core of what defines the genres are a tad loose, and, besides, it's been a change done a long time ago, with a certain permanent character. ------------- 
|
Posted By: AmericanProgster
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 18:41
|
Ah, that's a shame. Just got the Spiral album today...on Cassette! So hopefully I will be in for a surprise when I listen to it. Thank you! ------------- https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach" rel="nofollow - https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 20:26
|
Prog-related has always seemed to me a kind of catch-all category for music that doesn't quite fit into any of the others. I have long considered Vangelis to be the epitome of Symphonic Prog since so much of his music is essentially symphonic in character. He just uses electronics to create his soundscapes. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:37
I still think that is a pretty weak argument. Many artists were added to genres that are supposedly 100% prog and they have only 1 album that can be called prog, specially in the progressive metal and symphonic prog. And yet a major figure in progressive rock such as Vangelis is not prog enough. Besides, Vangelis have other albums that are truly progressive, like Heaven and Hell. In my honest opinion, this is just a political thing, since it is undoubted that Vangelis was prog one day, like Genesis and countless other prog bands, like Banco and post-Passpartų-pre-Dracula PFM, and yet those bands don't have their "proggyness" questioned at any time. I respect your opinion Vic, but i really can't see why Vangelis is not listed as prog aside from a mere internal decision among the specialists. -------------   
|
Ricochet wrote:Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 00:50
|
When compared with Mike Oldfield, Vangelis is worse. But when thinking only about what he has done, he deserves a place here. Look, The Beatles wouldn't describe themselves as proto-prog (or prog-related, whatever is there), but as pop-rock. Yet they were very influental and also a little bit prog, so they have place here. Do you think that Vangelis would call himself prog artist ? Maybe, who knows. But as long as the artist is listed here, I'm satisfied, under whatever genre he is there. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 00:58
At least he didn't record Albedo 0.39 1999, 2003, 2008, etc.  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 03:22
|
He has spiral, I like this one. And my favourite Blade Runner soundtrack. Or should I say: "Do androids dream electronic sheeps?" as fan of Philip K. Dick.
------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 03:36
|
Vangelis is the master of symphonic electronic music; a style variation that has a hard time being accepted as progressive. Personally I'd like to have him listed as purebred prog despite his later releases that touch more and more upon elevator music in style, but it seems that I belong to a very minor minority in that view ;-) ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 04:07
|
It doesn't make any sense: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51807&KW=vangelis&PID=2969510#2969510 - Vangelis was Progressive! ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 04:38
Can't say anymore than I already said there. I was just a fan (aka a senior member) when Jarre and Vangelis were moved, and I actually made more fuss about Jarre being moved, until I was corrected that French progressive electronic didn't have its initiatior in Jarre by a long mile. As for Vangelis, I don't like the "one prog album eclipses everything else" system (generally speaking), but I do believe there's Hypothesis, then the symphonic and electronic rock in Albedo and Spiral, and we can include even the experimental (despite unpopular) Beaubourg chemistry. China and the 70s soundtracks are already a good source of bicker. Admittedly though, I find Vangelis' "Greek school" of electronic music without many pupils, causing a bit of a rupture in the whole genre, even if Vangelis' own progressive music (in some albums, already mentioned) can be supported. -------------
|
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 06:40
|
The most important thing is Vangelis is here regardless of which genre tagging we apply. From the awesome Heaven and Hell, the splendid Spiral, the emphatically progressive China to the aural portrait masterpiece of El Greco, we are all the richer for it ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: AmericanProgster
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 07:35
|
You know I might just be able to agree with that if it wasn't for one issue (with me anyway). The way prog-related is treated here you would think its meant as an insult. I mean some people see as a way for non prog bands to get on PA. Even this website doesn't treat it as prog! Look at the new rating system...excellent addition to any rock music collection...are you kidding me?!?! I think the Ghost Busters soundtrack is an excellent addition to any rock music collection, but that has nothing to do with prog and that's how it seems PA treats Prog-related and proto-prog. For me its simple...if its genre has the word prog rock in it anywhere, then its PROG!! Regardless if its less prog than lets say eclectic prog, ITS STILL PROG AND SHOULD BE TREATED WITH THE SAME RESPECT! Thanks for hearing my rant!  ------------- https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach" rel="nofollow - https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 07:54
I'm afraid people don't see the issue in the same way. Those who have added bands to prog-related have often found themselves in the middle of controversy, sometimes with very unpleasant undertones (i.e. outright personal attacks). There are members who believe Prog-Related should be scrapped altogether, and the new rating system has been brought about by the habit some reviewers had of giving a lower rating to any PR or Proto-Prog album (something I have always refused to do). Needless to say, I have never been in favour of creating a 'ghetto' for PP and PR, but mine is only one voice amongst many. However, I have to disagree with your final statement - as much as I love, for instance, Iron Maiden or Blue Oyster Cult, I don't think they are as prog as Yes or Genesis  . I do, though, share your sentiments about respect - not only towards bands, but towards people. |
Posted By: AmericanProgster
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 08:01
|
Well, the good news is that I'm finally listening to his Spiral album and holy crap, its amazing! Hey if anyone has any suggestions for other albums by Vangelis that I need to hear, please list them. I'm eager to hear more now! ------------- https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach" rel="nofollow - https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach |
Posted By: rosenbach
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 10:48
|
I really like his first album called Earth, it still has some of the Aphrodites Child sound. If you enjoyed Spiral you should listen Heaven and Hell.
Another great album is Mask and i really like the two albums he made with greek actress/singer Irene Papas (Odes and Rapsodies). |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 07 2009 at 16:12
You need to hear the ones right before and right after, Heaven And Hell and Spiral. The three form a sort of unofficial 'trilogy.' ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: June 08 2009 at 03:08
|
^ L'Apocalypse
El Greco
The City
Direct
Oceanic
China
Voices
and i have probably missed another 5 or 6 great works ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 08 2009 at 11:14
|
Hi,
Vangelis, is, one of the greatest composers of our time ... and to boot, as if he needed it, he also has an Oscar in his closet ... and that is not even for the soundtrack of his that is the best ... it is a good one because the film maker knew how to use his music ... and very well!
Vangelis should be considered "prog", however the cynicism involved in the definition of the word, including types and styles of music involved, preclude him, Mike Oldfield, Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream from ever being considered and being given the credit they deserve for their music ... but in many ways, and the Top 100 is a perfect example, when folks have not heard enough of the music around and all over the world, they will instead select a 2nd and 3rd album by Genesis or ELP ... and promptly leave behind artists andf people whose contribution to the world of music is way greater than they are given credit for.
One other thing, that is not even discussed ... these folks were at the forefront of the birth and development of what we know as "synthesizer" and to help define it as an instrument ... rather than some fun stuff a la Wendy/Walter Carlos. And this is another avenue that the "prog" list and "fatherhood" is not willing to discuss ... progress is a great thing ... except it can not happen in any other music discipline ... so, even The Chieftains, who play a lot of tradional music, but do so quite progressively in a modern way that makes a lot of prog bands look and sound like children beating on their sticks ...will not get any credit ...
It's ok ... Mike has his Oscar, Vangelis has his Oscar ... and most of these "prog names will fade by wayside.
|
Posted By: Alberto Muņoz
Date Posted: June 08 2009 at 11:41
|
The Dragon and Hypothesis are good.
-------------  |
Posted By: Morakthesage
Date Posted: June 08 2009 at 15:57
| He's prog related becuase of "Chariots of Fire" and other output from the 80's, no doubt. The whole prog-related catagory is pretty worthless in my eyes, way to many of those bands don't strike me as having an ounce of prog, others seem totaly prog. I guess as long as he's on the site, that's all that's neccicary. |
Posted By: AmericanProgster
Date Posted: June 08 2009 at 19:49
|
But why should that one decade define him when he just spent the previous decade making fully prog music? I know he released a million albums in the 80s, but he also released a million albums in the 70s which better defines he contribution to prog anyway. So to me it seems in a case like Vangelis or Goblin (Italian electronic group who did the same thing with soundtracks) if their first decade is spent making whatever subgenre of prog, then that band should be categorized by that because it better represents their contribution to prog.
Besides if were going to base it off something like that, then I say we should change Genesis and Yes to prog related because of their 80s/90s output. It's practically the same thing.
But we wouldn't do that and why? Because their 70s output is what people are looking for when it comes to their contribution to prog not 90125, The Big Generator or Abacab, We Can't Dance. So why should Vangelis be any different? ------------- https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach" rel="nofollow - https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 08 2009 at 19:53
|
I don't care where he gets stuck, his stuff at his best wasn't merely prog related, but what the heck, you can find a lot of artists there that might be better elsewhere. Here's my rundown of what I have on CD: Albedo 0.39 1975 - Great Heaven and Hell 1975 - Great Spiral 1977 - Great China 1979 - Great Opera Sauvage 1979 - Good Antarctica - The Original Motion Picture Soundtrack 1983 - Good Direct 1988 - Good City, The 1990 - Good Voices 1995 - Good Oceanic 1996 - Good El Greco 1998 - Could do without Mythodea 2001 - Could do without Vangelis "related" 666 1971 - Interesting Jon and Vangelis Short Stories 1979 - Great Friends Of Mr. Cairo 1981 - OK Stuff I have on LP somewhere Beauborg - Run away!!! Run away!!! Hypothesis 1971 - Never made a strong enough good impression on me to for a CD The Dragon 1971 - Never made a strong enough good impression on me to for a CD It matters not where an artist is stuck as long as they're here and you can review their work. Not only that, but as you can see from previous posts, they get moved around. I saw the Art-Rock genre split into three parts. I wasn't paying too close attention, but I saw the creation (may have been a split) of three metal genres. It's all good. Don't sweat the details too much. Don't be afraid to make your case for a change either. Just be polite about it. We're all here for the love of music after all. Well, most of us.  By the way, I have an old Keyboard Player (I think that was the magazine probably around '80) article/interview with him. If God were a keyboard player, Vangelis has more keyboards than God. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
Posted By: AmericanProgster
Date Posted: June 08 2009 at 19:55
|
Oh and by the way, thanks for the suggestions! I'll be on a lookout for them. ------------- https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach" rel="nofollow - https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 01:15
^My two favorites. (you should seriously re-listen to both) Americanprogster: There's a lot of reccomendations in http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51807&KW=vangelis&PID=2969510#2969510 - this thread I linked to previously. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 02:46
|
It's simply astonishing that neither Vangelis nor Jarre are in the progressive electronic subgenre. I mean, it beggars belief. What's even more astonishing is that they didn't come on to PA as prog-related, they were moved OUT of the progressive electronic subgenre. Moving them to prog-related because of their supposedly commercial output runs directly counter to the clear policy of this site as operationalised in so many cases. YES remains symphonic despite their 80s output, as does GENESIS and a whole host of others. What I would really like is for the person responsible to join this thread and explain to us all why this was done. Please, Phillippe, we'll try to understand. Why does it matter? Because if we are to trust this site for ANYTHING, we must have the confidence that bands are placed because of a consensus, not because of the views of an individual. And that bands are prog not because of how 'good' or 'commercial' they are, but because they meet the definition of progressive. I doubt anything will change regarding these two outstanding artists, both of whom are essential progressive musicians. My suggestion would be for Symphonic Prog to look at addressing them both. After all - and I'm going to develop this argument and present it carefully sometime soon - there aren't any other categories defined specifically by the type of instruments used. We don't have Progressive Guitar of Progressive Flute. Why Progressive Electronic? Every single Progressive Electronic band here can also be assigned to another subgenre. Note that this is from someone who loves electronic music and has sampled the genre widely. I understand that the above is somewhat of a rant, but that's because I've read the explanation as to why JMJ and Vangelis were ditched. |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 05:28
|
^ I was kind of waiting for you to appear, Russell.
-------------
|
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 09:40
Both of these fall into the classical music tradition more than anything else ... the tenor that solo's in El Greco is phenomenal ... and deserves mention. If her name was Renata Tebaldi or Birgit Nilsson, and managed by Karajan, you probably would say this was wonderful ... but because it is "Vangelis" it might not get the listen it deserves.
It is beautiful ... and similar to it is a piece that Riuichi Sakamoto does for the soundtrack of "The Last Buddha" which also has a phenomenal soprano solo.
Please give these folks a chance and allow them the ability to experiment and compose ... it is what will make their music create history ... and I, for one, am extremely proud that I recognize that beauty and treat it as such.
I do fail to understand why some of us have an inate dislike for classical music ... when all of this is just ... music ... classical, prog, whatnot is not important ...
El Greco, is Vangelis' finest work ... and if I ran the Symphony here it would get played tomorrow!
All of this "prog" music was never a rejection of past musics at all, and in fact most of them played some classical music so that we would make the connection ... same music/new instrument ... or in some cases new music/new instrument ... but in the end, the tradition is the same.
Even though some people can not listen to "Beaubourg" for example, there is a nice bit going on underneath, and I think that it really tells you that Vangelis is of the positive persuation and would rather pursue the beauty in us than anything else ... and as such all of a sudden the music takes on another dimention ... experiment to learn and find new sounds and things ... the moment is the political rally sounds that come up ... and then are faded down ... I always thought ... this said it all about Vangelis and his desire to make music that challenges us inside and takes us to another level ... and this, my friends, was done way before "new age" was even born in America as a commercial event ... instead of anything else.
You did not mention Jon's Olias of Sunhillow ... which is a magnificent album all around and is made so only because Vangelis has the talent to illustrate Jon's mind and words so much better than Rick Wakeman, Patrick Moraz or anyone else since ... that is not to say they were not good, they were, just different.
There was a radio interview that made the rounds of some radio stations and he is very clear about how he composes and creates ... and has less to do with the machines themselves than it does anything else ... the machines are just the "translator" of the vision ...
|
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 10:45
Wow, this is actually one of my favorite albums ever.  -------------
|
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 10:47
Great post Russell. -------------
|
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 10:55
|
Regarding the initial question, I have given up trying to unlock the secrets of the universe.
------------- |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 15:35
|
Well, I found lots of artists not tagged as they should :
- a piedi nudi : RPI -> actually progmetal
- finneus gauge : folkprog -> actually jazz-fusion
- ACT : eclectic prog -> actually metalprog (eclectic prog sounds like a pleonasm, prog is already a mixture of various music types)
- Vangelis : prog-related -> actually progressive electronic (anyone in electronic music will cite Vangelis as one of the most representative of the genres)
- Mike Oldfield : crossover prog -> actually it's symphonic prog (became pop as of 1983, but didn't Yes and Genesis became as well at that time ?)
I think it's important to tag correctly a band as it helps someone who digs a sub-genre discover its most important representatives.
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 19:39
|
Direct (1988) is Vangelis's best '80s album, IMO. Rather underrated. The City, which came after, was a much more understated, more ambient affair. Not bad, but not the follow-up I was hoping for at the time. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 00:57
Ever one for the main chance, Ricochet I do feel passionately about this, but I'm attempting to address it politely and with some grace. I also don't have to get my way. (Though I might have to growl at the dog.) |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 12 2009 at 11:03
Btw ... it's quite vogue in Europe for new film makers to use their friends and create music for their films and such ... this is only not done in America because the movie industry is so slanted and twisted into the commercial brain washing that you get every weekend as a "blockbuster" ... or something that sold millions ...
Budgets for films in Europe are 100th of the amount of money that is burned in America ... and as such, using your friends that can play keyboards really well to create something new, that eventually became Goblin with Dario Argento, or Vangelis (he was already there), Tangerine Dream (they were already there) ... or Popol Vuh with Werner Herzog ... what you get is something different and new, which is not appreciated in America because of the power of the news media only supporting the studios they own.
It's an important distinction ... and also one of the reasons why you do not see so many of the musicians from the 60's and 70's develop into film and other arts in America ... there is no outlet for these arts for them ...
|
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 12 2009 at 11:21
Starblast ... Vangelis cut his teeth with Aphrodite's Child ... which was way more prog than a lot of things at the time ... Speaking of that ... the biggest "prog" connection is a man that never uses the word ... and no one ever pats him in the back (I have !!!) ... for being big enough and unafraid to put so many of these strange things together and on disk ...
Mr. Gomelsky ... take a bow! ... ohhh btw ... you should really check up the list of stuff he produced! It is by far the most impressive "prog" list of any you will ever come across ...
|