Zeuhl - an observation

DJPuffyLemon wrote: Magma is the only zeuhl band that has ever made any sort of new and revolutionary stuff. All other french zeuhl bands (except Dun) all just tried to copy them...and well, zao just went in a different direction.

That's pretty unfair. Archaïa and Shub Niggurath certainly doesn't sound like Magma copies. And I would never mistake the sound of Eskaton, Eider Stellaire, Noa, Potemkine etc... for Magma. Some Canterbury bands share more similaities than these bands, and you wouldn't say they just copied eachother.

James wrote: song_of_copper wrote: All that you say here is true.  And my theory is... well... they take all the techniques of certain religious music (chanting, repetition, confusing/pulsating rhythm, yelling, symbolism, emotional manipulation, otherness-togetherness, etc.), just without the actual religion part (although of course, they do mention the supreme being quite often!).  But what I mean is, they're not telling people to do or believe anything as such - just making expert use of the neurological quirks of the human brain in response to that kind of musical massage.   Even when you know they're doing this, it still works.  A bit like those optical illusions that still fool you even after they've been explained.  It still gives you a... weird euphoric feeling. This is pretty much why I love Magma: it transports me.  Being a dyed-in-the-wool sceptic without any patience for mumbo jumbo, I'm never going to feel that via some kind of organised religion, or any hippy nonsense.   But by the direct action of some extremely clever and very sincere music (because I think it is sincere - I don't think Vander is merely being calculating with this stuff, he appears to be a fairly emotional, philosophical chap), it's possible to bypass the 'religion' part and take advantage of these deep-seated quirks of the brain. Now try K.A. again. (P.S. ... I have never been chemically intoxicated in my entire life.  Who needs that when you have music?!  Just thought I'd better put that in... ) I was tired when I wrote the above this morning (I still am but a cappuccino has woken me up a bit), so on further inspection, it is clear that my words were a bit jumbled.  You did catch my point though, which is fantastic. I am glad I am not alone in thinking this.  I do remember the black and white photos mixed in with that M.D.K. YouTube video though, so I believe that had an influence as well. Oh I never said it was religious, or trying to be but it's showing somewhat of a cultish side... perhaps in an ironic way as well.  Being anti-religion and cults?  Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  I guess it's interpretable any way you deem. Actually, I have just remembered what these two tracks remind me of, i.e. the non-earth sections of Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-5.  The parts where humans go to the Moon (I think, or is it Mars?  My memory is bad this afternoon!) and then Earth itself attacks the Moon and its human colony to complete destruction.  Many moments in M.D.K. and Theusz Hamtaahk remind me of that.

That would totally make sense, to be reminded of that story.  Very appropriate, by the sound of it!  (Not read it myself.)

No, it's not actually religious - I didn't think that's what you'd meant - just that it borrows the psychological tricks that religion customarily employs.  I have a feeling that they most definitely intended to whip their audiences up into that kind of agitated state - I think the intensity, the catharsis, is purposeful, rather than just being incidental to the style of the music.  If I remember rightly, Vander has said that he was pretty fed up with all of that 'peace-and-love-let-it-all-hang-out' laziness of mind that was so fashionable in the 60s.  Instead... we get the complete opposite.  Righteous anger, and a feeling of orthodoxy (instead of permissiveness).  Frenzy instead of passivity.  No idea whether it was ever intended as an actual cult - probably not really, although the idea of that may have been a useful publicity hook!  Not convinced it was meant ironically, though, either.  Perhaps it's more a case of a deep-seated need to express end-of-decade desperation and frustration and to share that - find the others who feel the same way, who are facing in the same direction...

...ooh, bonus thought: maybe it's more akin to a punk mindset than a prog one!   All that nihilism and yelling... only rather more virtuosic and civilised!

I could be totally wrong here.  It's all guesswork!  But (duh, no kidding!) I am FASCINATED by this topic.   So, uh, thanks for letting me ramble on about it at you...

song_of_copper wrote: (P.S. ... I have never been chemically intoxicated in my entire life.  Who needs that when you have music?!  Just thought I'd better put that in... )

well..............

Edited by DJPuffyLemon - September 22 2008 at 05:32

James wrote: No problem, Melissa.  I am glad you think along similar lines to myself. I was thinking again earlier how different Magma and Koenjihyakkei are in terms of musical approach. Magma are: futuristic, industrial, dark, gloomy, satanic, religious, political and anti-establishment Koenjihyakkei are: modern yet old (I shall explain this below), upbeat, fun, punk, noise, oriental I shall explain what I mean by modern yet old. I like to think of Koenjihyakkei as music for Steampunk.  If you do not know what this sci-fi genre is about, then I shall explain: Steampunk is fantasy novels (mostly) that are set in a world where Steam Engines (or Industrial Revolution era mechanical equipment) are still prevalent, yet the world also features futuristic elements, such as those featured in Jules Verne or H.G. Wells' literature (such as time travel, submarines, early aeronautics &c.).  Some also have more modern advances, such as a quicker advancement of computer technology. So Koenjihyakkei's music often feels like modern music to an old setting.  If that makes sense? You could set some of their music to old silent films (as has been done with Rattims Friezz-- visit YouTube).  I think Georges Méliès' A Trip to the Moon is a good example of where their music would work. The reason I believe this, is because their music sounds mechanical and industrial (i.e. factory work) at times... and it is not just Tatsuya Yoshida's drumming style but the whole band. I do not know if this is deliberate or whether that is the sound they just happen to have come up with but it's an interesting one, nevertheless. Another industrial and mechanical sounding band are Ahvak.  They do not play Zeuhl but they take Chamber Prog into the 21st Century and do an excellent job of it.

I have heard of Steampunk, and to my eyes it seems like a wonderful excuse for present-day men to ditch the jeans and footie shirts and dress up in impeccable Victorian costume.  For that reason alone, I approve wholeheartedly.

I can sort of get what you mean about Koenji, although to my ears it's more like... how to describe it... something really Medieval, that ROCKS.   Like some sort of 16th century Japanese illustrated scroll made into a bizarre musical.

As for Magma, I personally find it reminiscent of very ancient things.  The mythology could have come off of a cuneiform tablet or an Egyptian tomb relief (hehe, especially Köhntarkösz! ).  And Vander would make an absolutely darling Shaman.  Or maybe an Inca priest...   For all my innate distaste for 'the altered self' (see above...! ), I can well imagine him drinking some nasty mushroom-and-cactus potion and envisioning stuff all over the shop.

And... I read something in the New Scientist about some guy who is investigating the acoustics of caves in which prehistoric people made paintings.  Apparently, the paintings often correspond to interesting acoustic effects.  I'm sorry to say (well... not very sorry...) that my immediate reaction to reading that was "Ooh, I wonder what Magma would sound like in a cave...?!" 

Ahvak: indeed, very industrial.  It's a bit like wandering through an abandoned building...  The sound effects are like metal fatigue set to music.

The other thing that strikes me, reading what you wrote, is how there is always, at any period in history, a bunch of people who are perfectly happy with weirdness.  I would LOVE to know what the Surrealists would have thought of Koenjihyakkei.  I bet they'd have loved it!!   If they were around now, they'd probably be musicians anyway, not artists...

Final Steampunk-meets-Zeuhl thought: Daniel O'Sullivan - Lewis Carroll in a former life.

What are your thoughts on this issue now, James? Almost a year and a half have passed. 

Try asking again in six months.  

song_of_copper wrote: ...  20th century classical, jazz, rock, soul/gospel elements... it's the mixture.  Other bands who profess to play Zeuhl (or are influenced in some way by Magma) will probably only take one or a couple of these stylistic elements, and hopefully mix that with something of their own.  The most influential part seems to me to be the jazz part. .... snip .... an extreme form of jazz fusion, in a way... it's as far away from jazz as you can get and still call it jazz!

Salty will recommend Xing Sa, I'm pretty sure. And I was recommended a band called Neom recently by Mellotron Storm. I'm no Zeuhl expert, nor have I heard either yet, but people whose opinions on Zeuhl I respect recommend them, so :)

I don't remember this thread from when it was initiated, but with it being resurrected in the last couple of days I went back to read through it.  It was interesting that the first post was in 2008 but E-Re was considered to be 'imminent' (October 2008 if I am reading it correctly).  As we know, it didn't come out until late 2009. Was there some story behind that?  I've only become a fan in the last year and was busy enough assimilating their old stuff, but having now become a bit obsessive, I can appreciate how excruciating it must have been to wait that long for it!