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Sean Trane 
Special Collaborator 
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Online Points: 20413 |
 Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:24 |
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^^^^
the actual Cha Cha Cha notes that made me realize this was it last a few seconds. I was not really all that aware that there were such a longer references before and after the cha cha cha in the track. Nevertheless this track is far from my fave on this album, and I orefer Still Life to Godbluff
Snowie: as far as I am concerned I never heard this dance refered as cha Cha since what makes it so recognizable is the typical three notes , usually strongly highlighted by the drummer on his Hi Hat (in french this hi hat is called the charleston or charly in short )>> therefore cha cha cha as in charly charly charly
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:30 |
Nevertheless, it is called a Cha Cha.
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Joren
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 07 2004 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 6667 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:39 |
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http://www.centralhome.com/ballroomcountry/cha-cha-cha.htm
You are partly right SD, but it was originally called "cha-cha-cha", and it is, like said before, a more logical name (because of the rhythm). I believe most Dutch people call it the cha-cha-cha as well.
Even better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cha-cha-cha_%28dance%29
"The cha-cha-cha (in Spanish chachachá) is a Latin American dance. In ballroom dancing, it is increasingly popular to call the dance cha-cha or chacha. The cha-cha-cha music is in 4/4 meter."
...apparently you are just showing popular behaviour, Snow Dog.  Edited by Joren - April 21 2006 at 07:42 |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:42 |
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Well we don't.
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Joren
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 07 2004 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 6667 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:42 |
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Read the update of my post.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:49 |
 I don't know about that. All my life its been known as Chacha. Anyway. Sleepwalkers is a great song.
 I just noticed......you've gone back to plain "Joren" again! Edited by Snow Dog - April 21 2006 at 07:54 |
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Tony Fisher
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: April 30 2005 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 967 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 13:12 |
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I very rarely agree with Hughes on much (eg I love Camel, Strawbs and Horslips, he doesn't, tasteless s*d) but I do repect his opinion and enormous knowledge and am pleased to collaborate with him.
On this I stand firm. The cha cha section doesn't fit the song at all. If there's some connection with the lyrics, I don't see it, but I find it hard to listen to Hamill's voice long enough to decipher the nuances anyway. Incidentally, my 17 year old son tolerates my music and actually likes some of it, but he has finally rebelled and forbidden me ever to play VDGG when he's in or else he will have to kill me, and it's the vocals that he hates so much. So it's not just me who thinks Hamill is dreadful. And it may be why VDGG never went beyond a cult following in the 70s; none of my group of friends at uni were fans and we covered virtually every other prog band with our taste. And I can assure you, noone has a better developed sense of humour than me! |
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 13:19 |
well, Hammill is a case of love or hate; there's no in-between. for me it is "love". as to your sense of humor: you may have one, but it is not identical with mine |
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 05 2005 Status: Offline Points: 4411 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 13:23 |
The highest point of the song, indeed! I was really impressed by that passage. I have to say this is really a "liscio" passage. In Italy (where VDGG were on tour very often) in a peculiar part of the country named "Romagna" (do you know the famous city of Rimini, hometown of Federico Fellini?) there is the most important and historic band of "Liscio" (a music and a ball we can hear in every town's festivity) the band of Raoul Casadei.
That passage of Sleepwalkers impressed me so much the first time I've listened to it just because is a sort of reproduction of that kind of popular-music genre!!! This is not cha-cha-cha!
Musically, it was tha time I was impressed the most!  Did not imagine this great honour to Italy! VDGG have always been grateful to Italy!Edited by Andrea Cortese - April 21 2006 at 13:26 |
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 14:51 |
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they have a lot of fans in Italy, and "Pawn Hearts" was number one in the charts for a few weeks in Italy when it came out
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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video vertigo
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: September 17 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 14:53 |
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okay now that I understand cha-cha I like it in Sleepwalkers
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"The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa
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salmacis
Forum Senior Member
Content Addition Joined: April 10 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3928 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 16:48 |
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I read once that when VDGG visited Italy at the height of their fame there in 1971 when 'Pawn Hearts' was at Number 1, police had to use tear gas and riot shields to restrain hoarding crowds, such was the hysteria!! I remember a passage from the article said that the crowd 'bellowed along to the lyrics as if they were Verdi operas'! Great stuff!!
I always thought the cha cha cha part in 'Sleepwalkers' was quite fun and leavened the mood a fair bit, so I'll vote 'highly ironic...'.
As for Hammill's voice, I just love it and always have. I can hear just how influential he was to some of my favourite vocalists like Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson, even Fish. Maybe it's because I was brought up on VDGG by my dad who absolutely worships them and Peter Hammill's work, but I've never had half as much trouble getting into VDGG as many seem to.
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R o V e R
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 13 2005 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 2747 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 17:01 |
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highly ironic and one of the best passages in the song
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Space Chief
Forum Groupie 
Joined: January 03 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 84 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 19:13 |
I do believe our scientists our working to find the Peter Hamill Tolerance gene.
Who's hating on the cha-cha-cha? It's what makes the great! It starts out as a typical VDGG song, then "Do-do-do, do-do-do...."- it's both hilarious and brilliant at the same time! What's not to love?
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 19:21 |
Yes, Bruce Dickinson is a big Peter Hammill fan. And Fish certainly is too; it is not for nothing that "Over" and "Fool's Mate" by Peter Hammill can be seen lying on the floor on the cover of the Marillion album "Fugazi". Edited by BaldJean - April 22 2006 at 03:30 |
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Online Points: 20413 |
Posted: April 22 2006 at 06:15 |
Although not liking Hammill's voice is fully understandable (it took me over two decades
 ), your two star rating is harsh (much harsher than mine on Strawbs' BATS)>> Give it time and i'll give you pointer on how to get into it As for Sleepwalkers : it is not just the cha cha cha bit i do not like (sorry Snowie, but I am sticking to it, whether you like it or not
) , but the whole trackArrow is superb, Undercover Man the best of that VDGG era and Scorched Earth is excellenyt, but Sleepwalkers isdefinitely weak
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: April 22 2006 at 06:49 |
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de gustibus non est disputandum, but nevertheless I don't understand
why Sean Trane doesn't like "Sleepwalkers". that tune is full of
musical humor (not only the cha-cha-cha part; there is for example also
the short "da-da da-da" in the middle of the line "or does the
anaesthetic darkness" da-da da-da "take hold on its very own". the song
has a lot of surprising twists and some of the best riffs ever by VdGG
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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bucka001
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 16 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 864 |
Posted: April 22 2006 at 10:20 |
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Tony Fisher has a difficult time with Hammill's vocals, and I would never question him on that. I love the Hammill style(s) but, like Sean, it took me a while to get into it. Not so much the earlier stuff (or even the later, more straight-ahead kind of singing like After The Show from Skin, or just about anything on Fireships - I could play that for anyone and not have to worry about them laughing or grimacing). It's more the deep-voiced, quasi-operatic and harsh styles pH developed after the '72 split of VdGG. It was difficult at first, but I grew to love it (he's my absolute favorite singer on the planet and has been for a couple of decades). But it's true that if anyone has trouble getting into VdGG, it's often because of Peter's voice.
Sleepwalkers may not be everyone's cup of tea (although it is regarded by most of their fans as a true classic) but the mid section of that song has one of the greatest, 4/4 grooves of any song ever! After all the cha cha-ing, and bizzare time signatures in the first half of the song, the band suddenly launch into one of the greatest, most ballsy riffs ever put onto vinyl and they (rightly) repeat it over & over because the groove just grows on you. This section, I feel, *really* displays what is special about VdGG. I alluded to this in The Book but VdGG did the one thing that Genesis, Yes, etc often forgot to do amid all the time signatures and technical displays - they actually *rocked*. They went a lot of places on their musical journeys, but they never lost sight of the fact that they were a -rock- band. And on this secton of the song, when Hammill's vocals finally come in ("Tonight before you lay down..."), the only way to sing that song is with a harsh, snarling growl. That section is as much heavy metal and punk as it is prog and needs to be sung with a fiery passion (i.e. balls) - Gabriel, Anderson, Wetton, etc... they could never do that song justice (just like you can only imagine Hammill singing Disengage - no one else could give it that fury unless it's some metal singer and even then, they'd sound too controlled).
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jc
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 10616 |
Posted: April 22 2006 at 12:32 |
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I suppose here at the continent we added an extra "cha", or those obstinate British removed one
. My dance teacher taught me the cha-cha-cha, and I LOVE the one in Sleepwalkers!!
It's a bit like the song The Light by Spock's Beard (maybe they were influenced by VdGG), you hear this latin rhythm and playful lyrics, and suddenly the music turns once again into something heavy, and that makes it only more intense. It's the same with Sleepwalkers, because you know there's a tension mounting underneath the very light hearted sounding music. Edited by Moogtron III - April 22 2006 at 12:36 |
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:00 |
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The dance was originally named "Cha-cha-cha" because of the rhythmic
pattern in it (which you can clearly hear just before VdGG start
tearing it apart). Some lazybones shortened the name to "Cha-cha" then,
but that name is much less satisfying, because it just doesn't fit the
rhythmic pattern.
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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Cha-cha-cha in VdGG’s "Sleepwalkers"
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Sean Trane wrote: