Cha-cha-cha in VdGG’s "Sleepwalkers"
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Topic: Cha-cha-cha in VdGG’s "Sleepwalkers"
Posted By: BaldFriede
Subject: Cha-cha-cha in VdGG’s "Sleepwalkers"
Date Posted: April 20 2006 at 18:24
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The cha-cha-cha in VdGG's "Sleepwalkers" has been critisized by Sean
Trane and Tony Fisher (I just read his review of "Godbluff"). My
personal opinion is they miss the point of it completely. Sure, they
play a perfect saloon cha-cha-cha for a few bars, but they then rev up a
gear and tear it apart brutally. In my opinion this supports the lyrics
perfectly; the mindless animation of the "Sleepwalkers" is accurately
mimicked with this. For me this passage is one of the high points of
the song. What is your opinion?
-------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Replies:
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 20 2006 at 18:36
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I just listened now to it. I agree with you. It's excellent. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Flip_Stone
Date Posted: April 20 2006 at 18:48
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I like it. It's short and fun. It comes out of nowhere, and then goes away when the band kicks back into the heavy prog.
Those who don't like it have shown other examples of similar narrow-mindedness in the past. A closed mind is a complaining and annoying mind. Just ignore them and their noise.
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Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: April 20 2006 at 18:50
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I have never had a problem with that part. I kinda' like it, actually! ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: Greg W
Date Posted: April 20 2006 at 18:54
The cha cha is the highpoint of this great tune. . Those two just lack a sense of humour.
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Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: April 20 2006 at 19:38
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When I was in college back in the 80s, we used to crack ourselves up by saying that we wanted that cha cha cha bit played as we walked up the aisle during graduation, as it perfectly suited our twisted states of mind at the time - basically trooping along aimlessly like sheep in our waking lives. That part of the song is hailarious and frighteningly dark at the same time. It's brilliant. It's also very Banton-esque; it displays his sense of humor perfectly. HB was off building his organ when the rest of the band got much of Godbluff together. By the time they were arranging Sleepwalkers, he was fully involved again. HB from Van der Graaf Generator - The Book (p.201): "Keen-eared analysts will be able to spot that Arrow and Undercover Man in particular - which the other three had already part developed - do not have the usual manic Banton elaborations of, say, Sleepwalkers, where I was firmly back on the case! 'Hey, let's play cha-cha-cha at this point...' 'OK!'" ------------- jc |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: April 20 2006 at 22:05
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I like it. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: April 20 2006 at 22:12
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If it wasn't for the cha cha cha part I wouldn't even like the album
and probably lost interest. That was the part that got my atention and
keep listening to the album.
------------- 
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Posted By: Zoso
Date Posted: April 20 2006 at 22:25
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I'm listening to Godbluff for the very first time right now, and The
Sleepwalkers is coming up next. I'll have to get back to you guys on
this one.
-------------  |
Posted By: Rorro
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 02:45
| I love that part, in fact that helped the song to be one of my favourites VDGG songs. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 03:47
You mean to tell me that if it was not for those Cha Cha Cha (played twice and max 5 second in total), you would not like the album
 >>> Man YOU ARE STRANGE I still confirm my dislike of cha cha cha in that particular track (I do not care for the dance either, BTW
), but it is partly because VDGG is not a band known for its humour (I think the cha cha cha bit in a Caravan or in a Genesis track would've been great ) , but in this case it provides what I feel is unecessary break into the track, too light-hearted for the subject discussed. BTW : I checked up on that review of mine, and apparently only the first version of the review I made from that album is apparent . I had edited twice once in late 04 and another time in september 05, when I rewrote almost all of my VDGG reviews. Not only have the recent changes made disappear this rewritten review, but it has wiped out my review of Still Life  and the one from World Record is also not the latest version ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
chamberry wrote:Posted By: video vertigo
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 04:02
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where exactly is this "cha-cha" part. I'm not quite sure what everybody's getting at here. ------------- "The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 04:03
Actually just to prove your obtuse and stupid opinion wrong , Tony and I, might have been on opposite sides of the Strawbs thread you are thinking of , but we actually agree on this issue
and we did not consult each other on this issue, which means that if anybody is closed minded, you might be advised to take a good look in the mirror, Mr stone(r)BTW, Tony Fisher and I are collaborating as Prog Folk specialist, meaning that not only did he ask for this
 , but I was happy to welcome him as the team leader . This is about people manageing their differences of opinion in complete peace and harmony. Something that you seem completrely unable to do.
I suppose the only thing you have to do after this message is shut your mean trap in complete shame and make yourself forgotten for as long as possible.
And just above is the post I explain why I do not like that passage. It is the perfect analysis, of why something can be wrong, quaint or quirky about such an intervention. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 04:07
this last around two seconds but occurs on two different occasions. the music breaks into a three identical note which could also be read as "Boom Boom Boom".
this refers to a dance from the 30's that was generally between swing jazz and argentinian tango and finished on this chacha cha , where you would clap hands three times and stomp foot three times also along with the musicians. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 06:46
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The cha-cha-cha part appears after the following lines of the song: "In time the whole raw world will pace these same steps on into the same bitter end". -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 06:47
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On the contray, Sean, it is not lighthearted at all, as they quickly show when they rip that cha-cha-cha apart.
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:00
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I don't want to be pedantic(or do I?) but its a "Cha-cha" not a "Cha- cha-cha". ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:05
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some call it "cha-cha", others "cha-cha-cha". both names exist. I
prefer the latter name, because it is onomatopoetic for a certain
pattern in the music (in the "Sleepwalkers" version the last 3 notes
before they tear it apart). there even is a movie named "Cha-cha-cha" (1998, directed by Antonio del Real) ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:07
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Well all I can say is I never heard that dance referred to as a Cha-cha cha.
I just did a search...its definitely Cha-cha.
If some say different they err. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:11
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The cha-cha-cha part fits perfectly in the song. The passage that precedes it already has a similar rhythm, and the passage that comes afterwards as well... and in the passage after that passage parts of that rhythm return as well. All in all, the development of the theme (or rhythmic pattern, as you wish) lasts from 2:52 till 4:03, so all in all the construction lasts a lot more than the 5 seconds you mention Sean. Agreed, the "real" cha-cha-cha part lasts only 25 seconds (3:04-3:29), but it is well-embedded, -integrated and -developed in the context of the song (like I explained above). I think it's brilliant, just like the rest of the song.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:24
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^^^^
the actual Cha Cha Cha notes that made me realize this was it last a few seconds. I was not really all that aware that there were such a longer references before and after the cha cha cha in the track. Nevertheless this track is far from my fave on this album, and I orefer Still Life to Godbluff
Snowie: as far as I am concerned I never heard this dance refered as cha Cha since what makes it so recognizable is the typical three notes , usually strongly highlighted by the drummer on his Hi Hat (in french this hi hat is called the charleston or charly in short )>> therefore cha cha cha as in charly charly charly ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:30
Nevertheless, it is called a Cha Cha. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:39
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http://www.centralhome.com/ballroomcountry/cha-cha-cha.htm - http://www.centralhome.com/ballroomcountry/cha-cha-cha.htm
You are partly right SD, but it was originally called "cha-cha-cha", and it is, like said before, a more logical name (because of the rhythm). I believe most Dutch people call it the cha-cha-cha as well.
Even better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cha-cha-cha_%28dance%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cha-cha-cha_%28dance%29
"The cha-cha-cha (in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language - Spanish chachachá) is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America - Latin American http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance - dance . In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballroom_dancing - ballroom dancing , it is increasingly popular to call the dance cha-cha or chacha. The cha-cha-cha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music - music is in 4/4 meter."
...apparently you are just showing popular behaviour, Snow Dog.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:42
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Well we don't. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:42
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Read the update of my post.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 07:49
 I don't know about that. All my life its been known as Chacha. Anyway. Sleepwalkers is a great song.
 I just noticed......you've gone back to plain "Joren" again! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Tony Fisher
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 13:12
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I very rarely agree with Hughes on much (eg I love Camel, Strawbs and Horslips, he doesn't, tasteless s*d) but I do repect his opinion and enormous knowledge and am pleased to collaborate with him. On this I stand firm. The cha cha section doesn't fit the song at all. If there's some connection with the lyrics, I don't see it, but I find it hard to listen to Hamill's voice long enough to decipher the nuances anyway. Incidentally, my 17 year old son tolerates my music and actually likes some of it, but he has finally rebelled and forbidden me ever to play VDGG when he's in or else he will have to kill me, and it's the vocals that he hates so much. So it's not just me who thinks Hamill is dreadful. And it may be why VDGG never went beyond a cult following in the 70s; none of my group of friends at uni were fans and we covered virtually every other prog band with our taste. And I can assure you, noone has a better developed sense of humour than me! |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 13:19
well, Hammill is a case of love or hate; there's no in-between. for me it is "love". as to your sense of humor: you may have one, but it is not identical with mine ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Andrea Cortese
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 13:23
The highest point of the song, indeed! I was really impressed by that passage. I have to say this is really a "liscio" passage. In Italy (where VDGG were on tour very often) in a peculiar part of the country named "Romagna" (do you know the famous city of Rimini, hometown of Federico Fellini?) there is the most important and historic band of "Liscio" (a music and a ball we can hear in every town's festivity) the band of Raoul Casadei.
That passage of Sleepwalkers impressed me so much the first time I've listened to it just because is a sort of reproduction of that kind of popular-music genre!!! This is not cha-cha-cha!
Musically, it was tha time I was impressed the most!
 Did not imagine this great honour to Italy! VDGG have always been grateful to Italy! |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 14:51
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they have a lot of fans in Italy, and "Pawn Hearts" was number one in the charts for a few weeks in Italy when it came out
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: video vertigo
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 14:53
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okay now that I understand cha-cha I like it in Sleepwalkers ------------- "The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 16:48
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I read once that when VDGG visited Italy at the height of their fame there in 1971 when 'Pawn Hearts' was at Number 1, police had to use tear gas and riot shields to restrain hoarding crowds, such was the hysteria!! I remember a passage from the article said that the crowd 'bellowed along to the lyrics as if they were Verdi operas'! Great stuff!!
I always thought the cha cha cha part in 'Sleepwalkers' was quite fun and leavened the mood a fair bit, so I'll vote 'highly ironic...'.
As for Hammill's voice, I just love it and always have. I can hear just how influential he was to some of my favourite vocalists like Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson, even Fish. Maybe it's because I was brought up on VDGG by my dad who absolutely worships them and Peter Hammill's work, but I've never had half as much trouble getting into VDGG as many seem to.
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Posted By: R o V e R
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 17:01
highly ironic and one of the best passages in the song
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Posted By: Space Chief
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 19:13
I do believe our scientists our working to find the Peter Hamill Tolerance gene.
Who's hating on the cha-cha-cha? It's what makes the great! It starts out as a typical VDGG song, then "Do-do-do, do-do-do...."- it's both hilarious and brilliant at the same time! What's not to love? ------------- 
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 21 2006 at 19:21
Yes, Bruce Dickinson is a big Peter Hammill fan. And Fish certainly is too; it is not for nothing that "Over" and "Fool's Mate" by Peter Hammill can be seen lying on the floor on the cover of the Marillion album "Fugazi". ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 22 2006 at 06:15
Although not liking Hammill's voice is fully understandable (it took me over two decades
 ), your two star rating is harsh (much harsher than mine on Strawbs' BATS)>> Give it time and i'll give you pointer on how to get into itAs for Sleepwalkers : it is not just the cha cha cha bit i do not like (sorry Snowie, but I am sticking to it, whether you like it or not
) , but the whole trackArrow is superb, Undercover Man the best of that VDGG era and Scorched Earth is excellenyt, but Sleepwalkers isdefinitely weak ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 22 2006 at 06:49
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de gustibus non est disputandum, but nevertheless I don't understand
why Sean Trane doesn't like "Sleepwalkers". that tune is full of
musical humor (not only the cha-cha-cha part; there is for example also
the short "da-da da-da" in the middle of the line "or does the
anaesthetic darkness" da-da da-da "take hold on its very own". the song
has a lot of surprising twists and some of the best riffs ever by VdGG
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: April 22 2006 at 10:20
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Tony Fisher has a difficult time with Hammill's vocals, and I would never question him on that. I love the Hammill style(s) but, like Sean, it took me a while to get into it. Not so much the earlier stuff (or even the later, more straight-ahead kind of singing like After The Show from Skin, or just about anything on Fireships - I could play that for anyone and not have to worry about them laughing or grimacing). It's more the deep-voiced, quasi-operatic and harsh styles pH developed after the '72 split of VdGG. It was difficult at first, but I grew to love it (he's my absolute favorite singer on the planet and has been for a couple of decades). But it's true that if anyone has trouble getting into VdGG, it's often because of Peter's voice.
Sleepwalkers may not be everyone's cup of tea (although it is regarded by most of their fans as a true classic) but the mid section of that song has one of the greatest, 4/4 grooves of any song ever! After all the cha cha-ing, and bizzare time signatures in the first half of the song, the band suddenly launch into one of the greatest, most ballsy riffs ever put onto vinyl and they (rightly) repeat it over & over because the groove just grows on you. This section, I feel, *really* displays what is special about VdGG. I alluded to this in The Book but VdGG did the one thing that Genesis, Yes, etc often forgot to do amid all the time signatures and technical displays - they actually *rocked*. They went a lot of places on their musical journeys, but they never lost sight of the fact that they were a -rock- band. And on this secton of the song, when Hammill's vocals finally come in ("Tonight before you lay down..."), the only way to sing that song is with a harsh, snarling growl. That section is as much heavy metal and punk as it is prog and needs to be sung with a fiery passion (i.e. balls) - Gabriel, Anderson, Wetton, etc... they could never do that song justice (just like you can only imagine Hammill singing Disengage - no one else could give it that fury unless it's some metal singer and even then, they'd sound too controlled). ------------- jc |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: April 22 2006 at 12:32
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I suppose here at the continent we added an extra "cha", or those obstinate British removed one . My dance teacher taught me the cha-cha-cha, and I LOVE the one in Sleepwalkers!!
It's a bit like the song The Light by Spock's Beard (maybe they were influenced by VdGG), you hear this latin rhythm and playful lyrics, and suddenly the music turns once again into something heavy, and that makes it only more intense. It's the same with Sleepwalkers, because you know there's a tension mounting underneath the very light hearted sounding music.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:00
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The dance was originally named "Cha-cha-cha" because of the rhythmic
pattern in it (which you can clearly hear just before VdGG start
tearing it apart). Some lazybones shortened the name to "Cha-cha" then,
but that name is much less satisfying, because it just doesn't fit the
rhythmic pattern.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:25
Ballroom dancers are lazybones? The name is much more satisfying as Cha cha because its less stupid sounding.
And the Brits are always right. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:31
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It goes really good with the song !!
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Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:41
If the Brits are always right, it's cha-cha-cha; a very relevent Brit told me so - Hugh Banton, whose idea it was to do the whole bit in the first place! (Hugh refers to it as cha-cha-cha) ------------- jc |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:47
he must be screwed up then. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: April 23 2006 at 02:29
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I love it. They utilized it well. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph  
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Posted By: Man Erg
Date Posted: April 23 2006 at 06:21
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I don't feel that strongly about it either way.Saying that;it does have a film noir/early 20th century, dark animated film feel to it.There is an animated film of a graveyard scene with dancing skeletons circa 1920's that comes to mind. It's similar (not in sound) as the dub/reggae that they used in Meurglys III IMHO. A nice and unexpected twist. ------------- 
Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb. |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: April 23 2006 at 13:43
Errrr... yes, that must be it.
------------- jc |
Posted By: MustShaveBeard
Date Posted: April 23 2006 at 16:12
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I love it; it kind of has a spooky feel to it, like a cha-cha-cha for ghosts, IMO. That song has such strange versatility; it has circusy music, piratey music, funky music, spacey music, royal-sounding music and of course spooky cha-cha-cha all in one, IMO. ------------- Your life or your lupins!!! |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 07:04
Yeah my new name was a bit too long and formal after all...
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 07:55
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I love that section of Sleepwalkers, it's quirky, funny, ironic and brilliantly executed. Sleepwalkers is among my favourite VDGG songs, and saves 'Godbluff' from being an otherwise very average album by VDGG standards IMO. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: proger
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 10:50
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cool part, thats all ------------- ...live for tomorrow... |
Posted By: Rorro
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 11:26
| As a Latin American i must say ¡¡ It's cha-cha-cha, all my life i heard it as chachacha, not as chacha. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 11:26
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Give it a rest! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 13:02
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I don't think it's out of place, but I understand those who think it is. It certainly is there for a reason, and that reason must be irony. But I don't think the song would be any worse without this section. |
Posted By: dagrush
Date Posted: April 24 2006 at 17:29
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I think it's genius, much like the rest of the album.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/omgwtfdagrush/"> 
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Posted By: Gog/Magog
Date Posted: April 27 2006 at 08:47
Technically speaking -- and i speaks as a professor of latin american dancing -- it should be cha-cha-cha-cha...
and yes its brilliant in Sleepwalkers -------------  |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: April 27 2006 at 16:29
Well, the first time I heard the album (and VDGG from the first time too) I thought that it was the boring-est thing ever but when the Cha-cha part I altleast liked one song by the end of the first listen. Then the only song I would play from the album was Sleepwalkers because I liked it so much specialy the Cha-cha part. And from that song I slowly liked the others.  -------------
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Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: April 27 2006 at 18:38
I love it!  ------------- 
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Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 00:26
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It gives a perfect climax to the song.
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 01:57
| nothing I care for much, but I don’t bother either |