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In and Out of the Top 100-- REVISITED

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zwordser View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwordser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 17:07
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Interesting. Let me know when you get to the top 10. Wink

The same 10-12 albums have been there for years, probably from the beginnings of PA.  It would (or will?) be interesting if that ever starts to change, but my guess is it won't for many years to come, if ever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 18:56
I don't really have much of an opinion as to whether certain classic albums should be higher or lower. If they make the top 200 or whatever then there's a good chance they deserve it and so I find it kind of pointless to pit them against each other. Of course that's just me though. Wink 

One thing to consider though is that peoples' taste change with time. You or me or Joe wearing a Magma t-shirt could think such and such about an album in 2016 but then one of us or all of us could like it more or less about six years later. You add a whole bunch of people to that equation and the results can change drastically. Also (and this is just my opinion) certain older albums might be more likely to be viewed as "cool" by the younger prog fans and so some of those albums might get a lower album than they deserve. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 30 2022 at 19:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 19:02
To me it's not about being deserving, it just is, so to speak, based on various factors which include the algorithm being used.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 21:01
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

To me it's not about being deserving, it just is, so to speak, based on various factors which include the algorithm being used.

So if ELP's Love Beach made the top ten you would be ok with that? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 22:58
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

To me it's not about being deserving, it just is, so to speak, based on various factors which include the algorithm being used.


So if ELP's Love Beach made the top ten you would be ok with that? Wink


I'd be both curious and concerned if I saw that happen. That might mean that there is something very wrong with the algorithm, there is a flaw in the system, that there has been massive ratings abuse and/or this site had been hacked. I would want to know why since I know the reputation that album has.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2022 at 01:34
Regarding naming isms, genres etc... post-Renaissance (where they self-consciously looked at their era as a rebirth, while naming everything in between themselves and the classical era "The Dark Ages) and starting with Mannierism and Baroque - more often than not the names and catergorisations of styles and eras has later been branded by "outsiders". Many times meant as an insult, focusing on a negative or a ridiculing aspect.
-Krautrock was popularised by John Peel. And while obviously humorous in a lighthearted way (as if a french scene was branded snail-or baguette-rock) he had a lot of love and affection for the actual music. He certainly helped spread the word. Perhaps moreso than anyone. And now, at least any non-german simply think it sounds awesome. A german 1970's band will get more sales and exposure just by being placed in the Kraut-section. It's associated with something raw, anarchic, wild... even hip. Why not just embrace it? It's caught on, and it's too late to do anything about it anyway. It does no harm imo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2022 at 02:35
but it still goes back to the question of why the albums ( and bands by extension)  are not highly rated here. I must admit I always assumed that Tago Mago was in the top 100 and maybe a couple more by Can and other artists within the 100. It did surprise me to find that generally the ratings are very cool.  Clearly a lot of people are not embracing it and maybe might even question why it's got anything to do with the progressive rock movement. The connection between RPI and bands such as King Crimson, ELP, Genesis , Gentle Giant is a lot clearer so what actually makes Krautrock even a sub genre? I'm not sure myself other than the definition has been widened over the years to accommodate a lot of stuff including 'progressive electronic' for instance. Electronic music has little to do with prog rock imo , some of it doesn't even have a 'rock' element. To be fair Krautrock actually does at least have that going on my incredibly limited exposure to it. I know its just the usual progressive v prog thing. Perhaps Krautrock was more progressive than the bands I mentioned as most got stuck on a style and by 1972 were not pushing that hard compared to 1969-1971.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2022 at 03:20
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

but it still goes back to the question of why the albums ( and bands by extension)  are not highly rated here. I must admit I always assumed that Tago Mago was in the top 100 and maybe a couple more by Can and other artists within the 100. It did surprise me to find that generally the ratings are very cool.  Clearly a lot of people are not embracing it and maybe might even question why it's got anything to do with the progressive rock movement.
Among "proggers" Can is just too weird, experimental and not your typical virtuoso-band. This makes them so much more polarizing than your Yes, King Crimson and Genesis-bands. They are simply much more popular among non-proggers. Those who read Wired, Pitchfork and listen to reviews on Needledrop, hangs out on RYM etc... in particular. In the real world they are bigger than bands such as Gentle Giant and VdGG, but not here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2022 at 14:34
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

...
-Krautrock was popularized by John Peel. And while obviously humorous in a lighthearted way (as if a French scene was branded snail-or baguette-rock) he had a lot of love and affection for the actual music. He certainly helped spread the word. Perhaps more so than anyone.
...

Hi,

I think that John Peel's appreciation is definitely news worthy for some here. However, we should not forget that what was happening in Germany in the arts was something that was not exactly unseen by a lot of other European folks, from Literature, to Theater, to Film, and then, finally, music, specially rock music and while at its first impressions electronic music was not exactly visible, it became the most obvious and clear example of the details that could be thought to be a  part of the "krautrock" scene, one of the most important parts being "improvisation", that to this day, still is not UNDERSTOOD or APPRECIATED for what it can do to music. It didn't hurt the other arts much, and even Klaus Kinski had his turn in the early days busking in front of an audience, and getting applause for it. Later we heard Damo and both the band and us thought it was crazy, but it worked, although their one album considered the most progressive (Tago Mago) is the one best known for the free form improvisations that can not be used anywhere else, and that it was put together to sound EXACTLY LIKE IT WAS ... a pure improvisation, of the kind that even acting/theater folks would be proud of ... it's not about "finding" something ... it's about finding a "soul" for the music itself and one can easily say that it came about.

I appreciate the words by John Peel and his helpful comments, but, you must remember that by that time, there was a lot of "krautrock" in theater, film and literature in Germany ... so, one could/should easily say that if yo never heard of it, or are surprised by it, then the arts are not for you ... and where do you think music belongs?

It was an art scene that succeeded better than the "progressive" ideals that were created much later ... specially when you can see the improvisational elements still in full form with Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze, likely the only 2 huge names that define the whole thing better than the rock bands we are attached to, all of them quitting what got them started quickly enough. But the creativity and incredible technical ability that TD and KS continued to provide ... is by far the greatest example of it all!

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

...
Among "proggers" Can is just too weird, experimental and not your typical virtuoso-band. 
...

Goodness gracious ... why do you not just say that rock/pop music has no ears AT ALL for anything that is experimental and progressive ... even when it is not just an improvisation, as a lot of things were in the early days ... but that's like saying that many writers, film makers, and other artists in Germany were a bunch of no good idiots simply because we did not show "ears" for new music ... except that same old merdita! (Specially now with the copies of the copies and the neo anything!)


Edited by moshkito - July 01 2022 at 14:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2022 at 12:10
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

...
Among "proggers" Can is just too weird, experimental and not your typical virtuoso-band. 
...

Goodness gracious ... why do you not just say that rock/pop music has no ears AT ALL for anything that is experimental and progressive ...
I don't know. That's more your kind of thing I suppose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2022 at 01:25
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

but it still goes back to the question of why the albums ( and bands by extension)  are not highly rated here. I must admit I always assumed that Tago Mago was in the top 100 and maybe a couple more by Can and other artists within the 100. It did surprise me to find that generally the ratings are very cool.  Clearly a lot of people are not embracing it and maybe might even question why it's got anything to do with the progressive rock movement.
Among "proggers" Can is just too weird, experimental and not your typical virtuoso-band. This makes them so much more polarizing than your Yes, King Crimson and Genesis-bands. They are simply much more popular among non-proggers. Those who read Wired, Pitchfork and listen to reviews on Needledrop, hangs out on RYM etc... in particular. In the real world they are bigger than bands such as Gentle Giant and VdGG, but not here.

and also the influence on Radiohead is very obvious to me and they are massive. Funnily enough I love the KID A album and regard it the very epitomy of progressive music. Can clearly didn't care about packaging the music or making it 'nice' to understand and listen to it. I think for me anything that has a high level of improvisation does tend to leave me a bit cold. I would say that's a reason why I don't care that much for jazz fusion. Improvisation is a means to an end not the end itself in my book.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2022 at 02:14
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

but it still goes back to the question of why the albums ( and bands by extension)  are not highly rated here. I must admit I always assumed that Tago Mago was in the top 100 and maybe a couple more by Can and other artists within the 100. It did surprise me to find that generally the ratings are very cool.  Clearly a lot of people are not embracing it and maybe might even question why it's got anything to do with the progressive rock movement.
Among "proggers" Can is just too weird, experimental and not your typical virtuoso-band. This makes them so much more polarizing than your Yes, King Crimson and Genesis-bands. They are simply much more popular among non-proggers. Those who read Wired, Pitchfork and listen to reviews on Needledrop, hangs out on RYM etc... in particular. In the real world they are bigger than bands such as Gentle Giant and VdGG, but not here.

and also the influence on Radiohead is very obvious to me and they are massive. Funnily enough I love the KID A album and regard it the very epitomy of progressive music. Can clearly didn't care about packaging the music or making it 'nice' to understand and listen to it. I think for me anything that has a high level of improvisation does tend to leave me a bit cold. I would say that's a reason why I don't care that much for jazz fusion. Improvisation is a means to an end not the end itself in my book.

No sorry:) - I listen more to jazz/jazz fusion than progrock, really. I can easily understand why some of why not all of Can's experiments is not everyone's cup of (coffee or) tea. It took me a little while to fully "get it" or embrace them. Can is a little like being introduced to a new flavour.  Maybe it's tastes a little funky at first, but once you've get used to it - it can end up as something that you simply can't get enough of. Well, it happened to me.
...And btw, Tago Mago is perhaps a little like Trout Mask Replica or Mëkanïk Dëstruktïẁ Kömmandöh... in the sense that a bands "most famous" album contains some of their least accessible music. Future Days or Soon Over Babaluma borders on being "nice".

-and yes, I feel like I can hear a Can-influence on Radiohead on several albums post-OK Computer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 06:13
Some comments, just my point of view.

Pale Communion. As an "old-Opeth" fan that shakes his head a little when "Newpeth" is mentioned, I think 250 is more realistic. It also shows recency bias, similar to new movies breaking into Top 10 IMDB out of nowhere...

Symbolic & Crimson. I dunno about TOP 100, it's certainly weird to see them listed with Banco del Mutuo Soccorso and such, but I love both albums. Maybe we have slightly growing death metal fanbase.

Terria, Choirs of the Eye, Part the Second. All three were huge ten years ago or so, I guess they fell out of favor because they're not hip anymore. I heard Toby Driver referred to as a "genius" more often than I could count. But not anymore

CAN. There was a time when CAN was listed as progressive rock on rateyourmusic. Tago Mago and Ege Bamyasi consistently scored as TOP 10 prog albums there, easily beating stuff like Relayer, Larks' or Hemispheres. Coincidentally, that was also the peak of latest hipster era (2010).
I don't want to be rude or anything, but every time I tried CAN, all I thought was "scam", or "embarrassment".

Six Wives & Brain Salad Surgery. I'm shocked they're out of TOP 100. Well, I guess it's useless after TOP 20 or so.



TOP20 Songs
Genesis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 08:08
Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

I don't want to be rude or anything, but every time I tried CAN, all I thought was "scam", or "embarrassment".
Don't worry. Your whole post just makes me think of you as less musically adventurous than I am... so now I feel real good about myself - and hip
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 13:42
^ LOL 
I'm glad there are different musical preferences amongst the forum members, otherwise the PA forums would be rather dull! Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Archisorcerus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 13:51
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ LOL 
I'm glad there are different musical preferences amongst the forum members, otherwise the PA forums would be rather dull! Smile

Ready for the grand opening of the Pandora's Box? Evil Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 14:11
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

To me it's not about being deserving, it just is, so to speak, based on various factors which include the algorithm being used.


So if ELP's Love Beach made the top ten you would be ok with that? Wink


I'd be both curious and concerned if I saw that happen. That might mean that there is something very wrong with the algorithm, there is a flaw in the system, that there has been massive ratings abuse and/or this site had been hacked. I would want to know why since I know the reputation that album has.
This is where I am at regarding the Top 100. If a said album is in the Top 10 and clearly should not be then I can only assume it has been abused by someone hitting 5 stars all day long for like a month!
I've grown to accept the list as is, since it is all based on reviews, ratings and the volume of both as well how the algorithm factors all the data.

This recap of 2016 by OP is very cool. Since there is so much subjectivity in taste, I am not sure I feel any of these ratings are "deserving", it's more that the numbers are what they are. That applies more so to say the bottom 50, the top 50 are probably all the known progressive rock albums we might expect to be there.

I'm a huge CAN fan, CAN phacking rules!! So not seeing them more in the Top 100 is my personal beef.
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