Yeah, I kind of wondered if any of the site admin could access that kind of historical info. It may be possible, anyway.  

Many others have similarly sort of dissed the rankings as insignificant, but it is interesting/fun to see how things stack in the bigger picture.  I personally think there is some significance to the ranking--sure, there's some "noise", but if an album rises or drops a lot, it says something about how prog fans perceive it over time in comparison to other albums.  I think it would be better to break the albums out by sub-genre, but I'm not sure I've got time for that...

 

The comments in the list are just personal, many of them my reaction to how I hoped an album might move in the rankings since 2016. 

 I meant to invite others to also comment on the rankings (or changes since 2016) on any of the given albums, or others that aren't there.  Anyone can also make their own list (maybe copy and add to, then make your own comments like many people did in the 2016 post.  The big question then was whether or not the posted albums belonged in the Top 100 prog albums of all time--still a good question).

I was looking at the PA top 200 again today.  I noticed a few more big changes from 2016 (just going from memory now, so someone lemme know if you remember differently):

Eskaton, 4 Visions rose significantly from 2016, entering the top 100. (I'm not surprised it rose, but I am a bit surprised that it sits at 74 now--though it is a very good album).

Renaissance, Ashes are Burning also, perhaps, entered the top 100 for the first time--I believe it was in/near the 100-150 back then.  Anyway, I think it deserves its current spot!

I think Maxophone was near the top 100 back then, and perhaps entered for the first time since 2016 (now at  95) I've heard it a couple times, but don't have an opinion yet.

Supersister, To the Highest Bidder, seems to have risen quite a bit, now sitting at 130. (I think it should-- a great album!)

I don't remember Cardiacs, On Land and Sea being anywhere near the top 100 back then (though I could be wrong), but it is now at 100, like it came out of nowhere(?). I've not heard it, so I don't have an opinion.

I'm pretty sure Tool, Lateralus, and Phideaux, Doomsday Afternoon were both above 100 back then, but have been slowly moving down--also two Pain of Salvation albums, which are right around the 100 mark now, but used to be higher. (My opinion: probably Lateralus should be top 100, but I don't know about the others).

I think I've seen it once in the top 100 over my time on this site, and then disappearing quickly. Of course it's all taste but it's in my Top 5 out of the current Top 100, so I'd say listen to it!

I've also seen Can once with two albums around 90-100. Now they are not even in the top 250. I'm not normally much interested in whether my personal favourites show up up there, but this is a bit ridiculous, isn't it?

By the way, nice to see 4 Visions and Ashes Are Burning in there.

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I've also seen Can once with two albums around 90-100. Now they are not even in the top 250. I'm not normally much interested in whether my personal favourites show up up there, but this is a bit ridiculous, isn't it?

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Yes, and now that you mention it, I remember there used to be at least a handful of Krautrock albums near/in the top 200, but there's no Krautrock in the entire top 250 now!

  Doing a search on Krautrock, there seems to be plenty of albums with a 4+ rating, so not sure why nothing is showing up in the regular top 250 list then--most of the classic K albums also appear to have plenty of ratings/reviews.  Maybe its a glitch in the system (that admin should check on??). Unless its purposefully being left out for some reason...?

richardh wrote: I must admit I've never taken Krautrock that seriously possibly because of the unfortunate name. I also associated it with boring repetitive 'anti-music' and part of a German psyche I would rather avoid. That said I did buy my first ever Krautrock album just yesterday (Tago Mago predictably) and had a first listen as of last night. I don't hate it but it seems to have a split personality starting like a studio jam session before going a bit experimental Berlin school. Not sure it will ever become my favourite genre but you never know...

HUGE fan of Can and I suppose I love a lot of the aspects you won't enjoy, but Krautrock is also a little like RPI. The latter can be and mean both Le Orme and Area - and Krautrock is smilarly geographical. Meaning that if you checked out (the right albums by) say... Kollektiv, Mythos, Brave New World, Nosferatu... you'd never think in terms of boring repetitive 'anti-music'. It's mainly just progressive rock from Germany. In places with multiple genre tags, you'll also find early Kraan and Embryo albums (+many more) in the krautrock section - where they belong. These guys sure knew how to play their instruments. So did Can btw. More recent bands like Kosmisher Laufer and Trees Speak are not too distant in sound and approach to some music I think you already enjoy (and probably less repetitive than Tangerine Dream). This was a mess, but come from more of a "sympho" background, the Kraut-tag may cause you to dismiss a lot of bands you'd potentially enjoy. That said, plenty of Kraut probably sound like the kind of music you rather avoid:)

Of course we have to accept that a system based on (somehow weighted) averages will not put very controversial, experimental, and difficult albums on top, even if they may be historically more important and central than much stuff people agree about easier.

Tago Mago has 53% 5 stars reviews but an overall average of just 3.97. Actually that's not too surprising if you think about it, and doesn't put it anywhere near the top 100. But note that A Farewell to Kings (ranked 30 with an overall average of 4.33) has only 52% 5 star reviews. Most albums from rank 30 down seem to have less than 53% 5 stars.

I'm pretty sure Can didn't eyeball a high average rating anywhere when they did that album, so maybe it's all good.

I must admit I've never taken Krautrock that seriously possibly because of the unfortunate name. I also associated it with boring repetitive 'anti-music' and part of a German psyche I would rather avoid.

One of the first thoughts I had when coming to this place was that I'm not very happy about genre labels that are somehow associated with nationalities. I still am not. British people came up with that name that now seems to put off other British people. Well done.

The sub-genre labels and the qualities/qualifications used to include bands into such are, in my humble opinion, quite misleading and inconsistent. "Krautrock" was the British moniker given to the music the Germans were, I believe, calling "Kosmische Musik"--meaning cosmic music, but here on PA Krautrock has gone on to become a bucket for dropping any experimental/alternative music created & performed by any German band. And, though the Deutsche seem to have accepted the term, it came from outside and is/was rather derogatory. 

Likewise with RPI: It seems that any Italian band gets dumped into this sub-genre first before considering whether or not it might be J-R-Fusion (à la Area) or Canterbury style (à la Homunculus Res, which was only recently [last year] re-assigned to its proper place from its RPI origins), etc., instead of defining it by a type of musical style. (The bands I think of as RPI tend to be bombastic and mostly symphonic, as they are often quite influence by their classical and operatic traditions.)

It seems that ten years ago Can, Neu, Popol Vuh, Tangerine Dream, and Klaus Schulze each had multiple albums in PA's top 100 (or, at least, in the Top 250). I guess that goes to show you how PA has become more oriented toward the Anglo-American world (again) as well as that prog has had quite a flurry of appreciation for "newer" bands and albums--meaning, perhaps, that "prog" itself has been undergoing a shift in definition. A subject worthy of another discussion thread: Has our definition of "what is prog?" been changing?

I suspect that this is rather a consequence of a higher percentage of ratings coming from people who just jump in, rate the odd album, and don't care much for anything else. Maybe some of it is even manipulation based on commercial interests. In earlier days probably a higher percentage of the weighted average was from people who wrote reviews and were active, and by and large I'd expect these people to be more open to experiments and less tied to the mainstream.

"Kosmische Musik" as a moniker seems to fit better what we call progressive electronic now rather than Kraut. Can was never very cosmic, although some people at the time tried to promote far more German music as "kosmisch". Not all bands liked that.   

Agree with everything else.

Probably dangerous for me to enter a discussion I know little about but that never stopped me before.

I would have to challenge that last statement. I genuinely remember at least one German artist in the 80's referring to 'Krautrock' as a collective noun for all those German bands that should be forgotten and dismissed. This was probably coming from a new wave/punk perspective and he suggested the term was used by modern German artists against other German artists who failed to get on board with the new thinking. It's easy to blame the British for being racist for obvious reasons but I'm not convinced you are correct on this. I do agree though that its a terrible name and it always surprised me when I came on here that it was being used as a positive almost like those of African descent using the 'N word' in some vaguely ironic way.

Hi,

In the CAN website, for a long time, there was a quote from Holger about them wanting to get away from the Westernized modes of music, and in thousands of ways, "krautrock" fit into that mode, although we ended up confusing the turning of the dial for an effect as what ended up defining what became the repetitive modes around it, but in general, what helped Kraftwerk and their families (Neu for example) was not exactly the repetitive modes at all ... TD, KS, Faust, Can and a variety of others were not repetitive at all, and stuck to how/what they saw as their own element in music. Can, might have become a bit more conventional after Holger, but still had many elements that were way out there.

I think that a lot of the problems with listening to "krautrock" is that we're looking for something we recognize, and we're not finding it, thus putting our minds in a state of ... what is that?

AD2 was specially that way, and all the way to "Made in Germany" was totally out of control in the sense that they did whatever they wanted, and I'm not sure that the band members themselves agreed on a lot of things at all ... since the material goes quite far and away from a lot of stuff they had done before. However, the "jams" or the "improvisations" died in the desert with no water at all, and I wondered how much of those improvisations were the fruit that helped feed a lot of their creativity ... which left them with nothing but a few songs in the later albums ... still odd in their own way, but not focused if I may use that word for it. Later there are some wild improvisations by Renate in a couple of live albums that are interesting, but I think that the band is not sure, or cares what she is doing, and I think that hurts.

In the end, the very best ended up being Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze who were by very far the most creative forces of the whole thing, regardless of how and who we look at it. Their constant output, continuity and changes (specially KS) is enough to make them some of the most progressive of all the groups out there ... and when you consider the changes in TD, and all of a sudden with women in the group all the way to Edgar's passing, the sound and quality of their work was fantastic ... and we can't even discuss it, when a guitar is added here and there, and a drum solo takes over that is so far and way from TD, but Edgar had a good ear for music, and was able to add it and make it better.

That these do not show in the top crap heap ... is not a problem for me ... I started without the top anything and will end without the top of anything.

I can appreciate the changes in the ratings over a few years, but in the end, it only speaks of the fans, and how fickle so many of them can be, and has little to do with the music itself. Too much subjective stuff listed ... hurts what "MUSIC" is all about ... music is about the artists, not the fans, and we need to wake up to that!

The same 10-12 albums have been there for years, probably from the beginnings of PA.  It would (or will?) be interesting if that ever starts to change, but my guess is it won't for many years to come, if ever.

One thing to consider though is that peoples' taste change with time. You or me or Joe wearing a Magma t-shirt could think such and such about an album in 2016 but then one of us or all of us could like it more or less about six years later. You add a whole bunch of people to that equation and the results can change drastically. Also (and this is just my opinion) certain older albums might be more likely to be viewed as "cool" by the younger prog fans and so some of those albums might get a lower album than they deserve. 

So if ELP's Love Beach made the top ten you would be ok with that? 

Regarding naming isms, genres etc... post-Renaissance (where they self-consciously looked at their era as a rebirth, while naming everything in between themselves and the classical era "The Dark Ages) and starting with Mannierism and Baroque - more often than not the names and catergorisations of styles and eras has later been branded by "outsiders". Many times meant as an insult, focusing on a negative or a ridiculing aspect.

-Krautrock was popularised by John Peel. And while obviously humorous in a lighthearted way (as if a french scene was branded snail-or baguette-rock) he had a lot of love and affection for the actual music. He certainly helped spread the word. Perhaps moreso than anyone. And now, at least any non-german simply think it sounds awesome. A german 1970's band will get more sales and exposure just by being placed in the Kraut-section. It's associated with something raw, anarchic, wild... even hip. Why not just embrace it? It's caught on, and it's too late to do anything about it anyway. It does no harm imo.

richardh wrote: but it still goes back to the question of why the albums ( and bands by extension)  are not highly rated here. I must admit I always assumed that Tago Mago was in the top 100 and maybe a couple more by Can and other artists within the 100. It did surprise me to find that generally the ratings are very cool.  Clearly a lot of people are not embracing it and maybe might even question why it's got anything to do with the progressive rock movement.

Among "proggers" Can is just too weird, experimental and not your typical virtuoso-band. This makes them so much more polarizing than your Yes, King Crimson and Genesis-bands. They are simply much more popular among non-proggers. Those who read Wired, Pitchfork and listen to reviews on Needledrop, hangs out on RYM etc... in particular. In the real world they are bigger than bands such as Gentle Giant and VdGG, but not here.

Hi,

I think that John Peel's appreciation is definitely news worthy for some here. However, we should not forget that what was happening in Germany in the arts was something that was not exactly unseen by a lot of other European folks, from Literature, to Theater, to Film, and then, finally, music, specially rock music and while at its first impressions electronic music was not exactly visible, it became the most obvious and clear example of the details that could be thought to be a  part of the "krautrock" scene, one of the most important parts being "improvisation", that to this day, still is not UNDERSTOOD or APPRECIATED for what it can do to music. It didn't hurt the other arts much, and even Klaus Kinski had his turn in the early days busking in front of an audience, and getting applause for it. Later we heard Damo and both the band and us thought it was crazy, but it worked, although their one album considered the most progressive (Tago Mago) is the one best known for the free form improvisations that can not be used anywhere else, and that it was put together to sound EXACTLY LIKE IT WAS ... a pure improvisation, of the kind that even acting/theater folks would be proud of ... it's not about "finding" something ... it's about finding a "soul" for the music itself and one can easily say that it came about.

I appreciate the words by John Peel and his helpful comments, but, you must remember that by that time, there was a lot of "krautrock" in theater, film and literature in Germany ... so, one could/should easily say that if yo never heard of it, or are surprised by it, then the arts are not for you ... and where do you think music belongs?

It was an art scene that succeeded better than the "progressive" ideals that were created much later ... specially when you can see the improvisational elements still in full form with Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze, likely the only 2 huge names that define the whole thing better than the rock bands we are attached to, all of them quitting what got them started quickly enough. But the creativity and incredible technical ability that TD and KS continued to provide ... is by far the greatest example of it all!

Saperlipopette! wrote: ... Among "proggers" Can is just too weird, experimental and not your typical virtuoso-band.  ...

Goodness gracious ... why do you not just say that rock/pop music has no ears AT ALL for anything that is experimental and progressive ... even when it is not just an improvisation, as a lot of things were in the early days ... but that's like saying that many writers, film makers, and other artists in Germany were a bunch of no good idiots simply because we did not show "ears" for new music ... except that same old merdita! (Specially now with the copies of the copies and the neo anything!)

and also the influence on Radiohead is very obvious to me and they are massive. Funnily enough I love the KID A album and regard it the very epitomy of progressive music. Can clearly didn't care about packaging the music or making it 'nice' to understand and listen to it. I think for me anything that has a high level of improvisation does tend to leave me a bit cold. I would say that's a reason why I don't care that much for jazz fusion. Improvisation is a means to an end not the end itself in my book.

No sorry:) - I listen more to jazz/jazz fusion than progrock, really. I can easily understand why some of why not all of Can's experiments is not everyone's cup of (coffee or) tea. It took me a little while to fully "get it" or embrace them. Can is a little like being introduced to a new flavour.  Maybe it's tastes a little funky at first, but once you've get used to it - it can end up as something that you simply can't get enough of. Well, it happened to me.

...And btw, Tago Mago is perhaps a little like Trout Mask Replica or Mëkanïk Dëstruktïẁ Kömmandöh... in the sense that a bands "most famous" album contains some of their least accessible music. Future Days or Soon Over Babaluma borders on being "nice".

-and yes, I feel like I can hear a Can-influence on Radiohead on several albums post-OK Computer.

Some comments, just my point of view.

Pale Communion. As an "old-Opeth" fan that shakes his head a little when "Newpeth" is mentioned, I think 250 is more realistic. It also shows recency bias, similar to new movies breaking into Top 10 IMDB out of nowhere...

Symbolic & Crimson. I dunno about TOP 100, it's certainly weird to see them listed with Banco del Mutuo Soccorso and such, but I love both albums. Maybe we have slightly growing death metal fanbase.

Terria, Choirs of the Eye, Part the Second. All three were huge ten years ago or so, I guess they fell out of favor because they're not hip anymore. I heard Toby Driver referred to as a "genius" more often than I could count. But not anymore

CAN. There was a time when CAN was listed as progressive rock on rateyourmusic. Tago Mago and Ege Bamyasi consistently scored as TOP 10 prog albums there, easily beating stuff like Relayer, Larks' or Hemispheres. Coincidentally, that was also the peak of latest hipster era (2010).

I don't want to be rude or anything, but every time I tried CAN, all I thought was "scam", or "embarrassment".

Six Wives & Brain Salad Surgery. I'm shocked they're out of TOP 100. Well, I guess it's useless after TOP 20 or so.

^  

I'm glad there are different musical preferences amongst the forum members, otherwise the PA forums would be rather dull!

This is where I am at regarding the Top 100. If a said album is in the Top 10 and clearly should not be then I can only assume it has been abused by someone hitting 5 stars all day long for like a month!

I've grown to accept the list as is, since it is all based on reviews, ratings and the volume of both as well how the algorithm factors all the data.

This recap of 2016 by OP is very cool. Since there is so much subjectivity in taste, I am not sure I feel any of these ratings are "deserving", it's more that the numbers are what they are. That applies more so to say the bottom 50, the top 50 are probably all the known progressive rock albums we might expect to be there.

I'm a huge CAN fan, CAN phacking rules!! So not seeing them more in the Top 100 is my personal beef.