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Archisorcerus 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2022
Location: Izmir
Status: Offline
Points: 2707
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 Posted: March 21 2022 at 07:12 |
^ Its Turkish word is also Eskimo, and it is not deragotary in here. But thanks for the info, I appreciate that. Learning is good. 
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Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2022
Location: Izmir
Status: Offline
Points: 2707
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 07:13 |
 tszirmay wrote:
Archisorcerus wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Quoting Otto von Bismarck= inappropriate |
Quoting anyone is not inappropriate in my book. But you quoted his anti-Russian words without providing the context. Tapfret deleted some posts as they are bigoted, but not yours, which I think also was within the scope of bigotry.
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Because I did clarify the context when you took offence. Please verify. I am far from bigoted, Sir. 4 religions studied , world travel and 7 languages fluency would disprove such a ridiculous notion  |
I wasn't offended. I just think that it is also bigotry. You provided the context later. My criticism was about Tapfret's conduct. I didn't accuse you of being bigoted.
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 15151
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 07:19 |
If we agreed on the facts, regarding the atrocities committed by the Russians currently in Ukraine, although I'm not sure we do, is it really important whether this qualifies technically as a genocide or not? (I know that there is a juridical sense in which it makes a difference, but I'm interested what that issue means to you, given that some seem to be interested in it.)
For me personally it is what it is. Whether it's called "genocide" or not won't change it.
Edited by Lewian - March 21 2022 at 07:20
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 07:20 |
Lewian wrote:
If we agreed on the facts, regarding the atrocities committed by the Russians currently in Ukraine, although I'm not sure we do, is it really important whether this qualifies technically as a genocide or not? (I know that there is a juridical sense in which it does, but I'm interested what that issue means to you, given that some seem to be interested in it.)
For me personally it is what it is. Whether it's called "genocide" or not won't change it.
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So, why we don't we end this debate in semantics and call it what it is? A War Crime, and be done with it.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 07:29 |
 
Edited by SteveG - March 21 2022 at 07:31
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 09:18 |
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^ There are a couple people in this thread that deserve a cracker too.
For those who may not recognize him, that is Tucker Carlson, or just plain f**ker as I like to call him. He is a filthy rich putin loving media elitist and all-around hate mongering divisive tool. Really annoying haircut too.
Edited by Easy Money - March 21 2022 at 09:27
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 09:38 |
Easy Money wrote:
^ There are a couple people in this thread that deserve a cracker too.
For those who may not recognize him, that is Tucker Carlson, or just plain f**ker as I like to call him. He is a filthy rich putin loving media elitist and all-around hate mongering divisive tool. Really annoying haircut too. |
The most punchable face in news media. Yeah, he's part of the echo chamber that drives people like Cindy.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 6052
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 10:19 |
SteveG wrote:
Lewian wrote:
If we agreed on the facts, regarding the atrocities committed by the Russians currently in Ukraine, although I'm not sure we do, is it really important whether this qualifies technically as a genocide or not? (I know that there is a juridical sense in which it does, but I'm interested what that issue means to you, given that some seem to be interested in it.)
For me personally it is what it is. Whether it's called "genocide" or not won't change it.
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So, why we don't we end this debate in semantics and call it what it is? A War Crime, and be done with it. |
I am not a judge of the International Court, but from what I see and hear, Putin is committing war crimes every day: bombs on civilian buildings and the siege of a city are usually considered a war crime.
It is not the first time that Putin has committed these crimes, in Syria he and Assad have done worse.
But Putin and Assad are not the only ones to have committed them in the last 30 years: the sad thing is that the states of the UN Security Council plus their allies (EU and Israel) have committed these crimes the most.
Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 21 2022 at 10:21
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Online
Points: 13795
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 11:05 |
jamesbaldwin wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Lewian wrote:
If we agreed on the facts, regarding the atrocities committed by the Russians currently in Ukraine, although I'm not sure we do, is it really important whether this qualifies technically as a genocide or not? (I know that there is a juridical sense in which it does, but I'm interested what that issue means to you, given that some seem to be interested in it.)
For me personally it is what it is. Whether it's called "genocide" or not won't change it.
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So, why we don't we end this debate in semantics and call it what it is? A War Crime, and be done with it. |
I am not a judge of the International Court, but from what I see and hear, Putin is committing war crimes every day: bombs on civilian buildings and the siege of a city are usually considered a war crime.
It is not the first time that Putin has committed these crimes, in Syria he and Assad have done worse.
But Putin and Assad are not the only ones to have committed them in the last 30 years: the sad thing is that the states of the UN Security Council plus their allies (EU and Israel) have committed these crimes the most.
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Can you name me one occasion when any citizen working on behalf of any state within the EU, including UK, or Israel have been cited for war crimes at the International Court, please?
(Hint. I couldn’t find any)
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 12:28 |
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^ If that's not the final word, I don't know what is. Time to close the thread?
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Online
Points: 13795
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 12:47 |
SteveG wrote:
^ If that's not the final word, I don't know what is. Time to close the thread? |
Yes. The damned thing should never have been allowed to be reopened. It should have been throttled at birth. Either that, or at least one member here, who to my knowledge has not posted about prog once on the site, should have been at least suspended for overt and cynical trolling.
Lorenzo is another who seems to be so wrapped up in a world view that it goes beyond any common sense, and as a longtime supporter of the position successive Israeli governments have found themselves in, I take umbrage over a very provocative accusation of war crimes on the part of that state. Especially when there is no doubt excepting in nutcases minds that genocide most certainly could apply to the Jewish people. The West has many faults. Deliberate genocide is not one of them, and the suggestion that we are responsible is not merely working or insulting, but bloody stupid, really.
I am in a pretty poor mood, given that I am back on the naughty step over the inane pedantry we seem to apply to artists who should be a shoo-in for addition to the site, but allow some dreadful comments on the political threads.
I am pretty much done with it, tbh.
Edited by lazland - March 21 2022 at 12:48
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator
Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team
Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6737
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 13:00 |
[redacted]
Edited by nick_h_nz - March 21 2022 at 13:48
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 9050
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 13:24 |
Although I have much respect for both the Steves here, those calls for closing threads because they don't appeal to the Masters really piss me off. Since there is a general discussion section on this forum, this one has it's place on it. It has remained fairly civil up till now until your censorship calls, which I thus don't support. It would be a call to shut down the general discussion section on PA, which, IMHO, would be a loss to this site, because personally I think it is a good thing that we can exchange between us not just about prog music.
There is no obligation to participate in these threads and when you don't like it you have all liberty to stay out.
That said, in many "Eastern" countries the International Court of Justice is considered to be a partial institution, because, yes really, some Western leaders (Bush, father and son, Sarkozy, Netanyahu, just to name a few...) could (should?) have appeared before this tribunal (not sure though if they would have been convicted...). There is definitely some Western hypocrisy that most of us don't want to face, but all this does not change a thing about Putin's war in Ukraine. So maybe we could just get back to that instead of deflecting to other topics.
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum
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Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2022
Location: Izmir
Status: Offline
Points: 2707
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 13:27 |
suitkees wrote:
Although I have much respect for both the Steves here, those calls for closing threads because they don't appeal to the Masters really piss me off. Since there is a general discussion section on this forum, this one has it's place on it. It has remained fairly civil up till now until your censorship calls, which I thus don't support. It would be a call to shut down the general discussion section on PA, which, IMHO, would be a loss to this site, because personally I think it is a good thing that we can exchange between us not just about prog music.
There is no obligation to participate in these threads and when you don't like it you have all liberty to stay out. |
I agree 100%.
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jayem
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 21 2006
Location: Switzerland
Status: Offline
Points: 997
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 13:33 |
lazland wrote:
Can you name me one occasion when any citizen working on behalf of any state within the EU, including UK, or Israel have been cited for war crimes at the International Court, please? |
I can't, now not everyone acknowledges the authority of the ICC, (I'd say) the most striking example being (a lot of) muslims versus the legal system by which Israel can exist. We can politely ask those muslims to provide evidences that the Qur'an was Revealed so everyone would agree on halal laws (esp into using probability calculus as regards "mathematical" miracles some claim to find in the Qur'an). As long as muslims cannot do this, there'd be no reason for Westerners & co to renounce to the system the ICC refers to. One would trust Putin had succesfully made Russia a more attractive country to Westerners than was USSR so he'd invest further in advertizing for its universities and tech centers until they'd become as famous as MIT Harvard, Silicon Valley, etc, matching the media genius the West has been able to develop. It seems this war happens because Putin cannot wait and wants greatness (illusory greatness, that is, as USSR had space tech and weapons but no proper "USSR way of life" dream) back as soon as possible. The only way he would renounce would be that (hopefully in any leader's mind), the word "war" would stop being associated with military parades and definitely with filthy quagmires, irreversible wastes & disasters
Edited by jayem - March 21 2022 at 14:54
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 6052
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 13:37 |
I suppose none of you are registered with Amnesty International, like I am, or follow Human Rights Watch. If you were, you would know that there is little doubt that "war crimes" have been committed 1) In Iraq (2003) by Bush, Blair and Aznar 2) In Afghanistan from the US, but Trump has put the International Criminal Court under sanctions for not investigating 3) From Israel in the bombing of Gaza, which following the criterion that someone (not me) proposes for Ukraine would constitute a genocide, given that deaths and destruction in Gaza, an entirely civilized and densely populated area, have been greater than those made so far by the Russia. (and others cases)
I do not know if you know that the USA, Russia and China, that is 3 states (out of 5) members of the UN Security Council, do not adhere to the International Criminal Court (even Israel does not adhere).
How are decisions made by the Court? If you want we can talk about it, even if here we should talk about something else.
I limited myself to saying that the war crimes that Putin is committing today he has already committed in the past, and that, in the same way, the wars waged on civilians by NATO and Israel in Gaza are war crimes, as Amnesty International suggests.
But perhaps my concept of democracy and freedom of expression is different from yours: I don't ask to close threads if I don't agree with what you say.
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 13:39 |
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Lorenzo: "I suppose none of you are registered with Amnesty International, like I am,"
I have been a member of Amnesty International, and I still get their mail. I support them. What made you think no one here would be a member?
Edited by Easy Money - March 21 2022 at 14:00
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Online
Points: 13795
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 13:46 |
Easy Money wrote:
I have been a member of Amnesty International, and I still get their mail. I support them. What made you think no one here would be a member? |
I was a member of Amnesty for many years, and contributed to campaigns through my trade union work for a long time as well.
That’s the problem with keyboard debates, John. It was ever thus.
Anyhow, I am absolutely done with this thread. It is a pointless exercise arguing with some people.
Let’s close on a positive note. Your posts have been a beacon on these threads, and I appreciate the support you are giving to the poor innocents in Ukraine. We have also sent essentials and money. That is far more important than silly posts on a music site.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 13:59 |
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This thread is off the rails. Let's concentrate on stopping the bleeding and not concentrate on picking off scabs. America did not attack the Ukraine, Putin did
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679
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Posted: March 21 2022 at 14:02 |
Easy Money wrote:
Lorenzo: "I suppose none of you are registered with Amnesty International, like I am,"
John: "I have been a member of Amnesty International, and I still get their mail. I support them. What made you think no one here would be a member?" |
The trouble with this thread is that it was never intended to be a conversation, just a repetitive condescending lecture. The op has misquoted me several times because he is not interested in what anyone else has to say.
Edited by Easy Money - March 21 2022 at 14:05
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Reflections on the Russia’s invasion of Ukraine