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Raff View Drop Down
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 11:33
I am sorry, but I believe that people who work hard only if their effort is rewarded in some way are flawed. I worked twice as hard as many of my colleagues in the office where I was, and yet I got paid nothing more than they did, on the contrary. I did so because my work ethic commanded me to do so - and I saw my parents do the same for all their lives. Don't get me wrong, I like a reward (financial or otherwise) as much as everyone else, but it has never been the main motivation of my efforts as a worker.
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 14:45
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:



Yes.



 
 
 
Shocked!
 


Edited by Peter - March 28 2009 at 14:48
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 14:46

That Texas Tech story has all the hallmarks of being an urban myth ... a whole class of students in Texas thought socialism could work... really? no Texan I've ever met would think this, (I work for an Austin based company so I have met several) and, as others have pointed out, is neither socialism nor is it even a demonstration of the redistribution of wealth (any econ professor who believes that grades are the wealth of the subject he is teaching is teaching the wrong subject - the wealth he is imparting and the students are accruing is knowledge, not grades). Even in that possibly hypothetical experiment, the "A" grade students would continue to work at the same level because they are driven by personal achievement (as Raff pointed out) and the mid-grade students would also be driven by challenge rather than reward since an average grade to them is the norm, hence is not a reward.
What?
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Points: 7003 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 14:48
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Following is an email that I recently received that is topic heading related.  I'm not sure how it fits in with the discussion as I have not read the 15 pages of posts:

Subject: A simple analogy





An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single
student before but had, once, failed an entire class. That class had
insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no
one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we
will have an experiment in this class on socialism.



All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade
so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.  After the first
test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who
studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were
happy.  But, as the second test rolled around, the students who
studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard
decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little..  The
second test average was a D!  No one was happy. When the 3rd test
rolled around the average was an F.



The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all
resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of
anyone else.  All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor
told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the
reward is great, the effort to succeed is great; but when government
takes all the reward away; no one will try or want to succeed.



Could not be any simpler than that....

 
 
Something of a lack of academic rigour there. Economics is sometimes touted as a science (which it is, if you accept astrology and crystal healing as sciences) so where was the control? What kind of peer reviews did this experiment receive? Come to that, did this experiment really take place, or is it yet another of those apocryphal emails that everybody's read but nobody can trace the source?
 
 
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to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom


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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 14:56
Hey while were on the subject of clue:

November 7, 2007 10:14 AM

Conservative Jones, Boy Detective, in Multiple Mystery Mayhem





Edited by Slartibartfast - March 28 2009 at 14:57
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 66567 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:09
I should have noted that the views expressed in that email are not necessarily the views of the poster.  LOL  I just received that email the other day and thought it apropos in regards to this topic. 
 
Although, I do believe that human nature would provide that there is some truth to this analogy.  There may very well have been some A students that still tried hard and got their A's based on their own personal achievement, but apparently not enough to bring up the whole grade.  And I think pretty much everyone would think why should I work 80 hours a week dealing with the stress of my job if I could make the same pay working flipping burgers (not that that job doesn't have its own stresses or tediousness). 
 
Supposedly, it is this type of analogy that led to the "fall" of the Soviet Union.  (Yes, communism isn't socialism, but they are related, even if what the Soviet Union had was not quite what Marx had in mind when he wrote his manifesto).  
 
The greater this risk the greater the reward.  Maybe it is growing up in the US that raises us to think this way, but the reality is that this is how many people think. 
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:16
Scott, what led to the fall of the Soviet Union were a series of much bigger factors than just what that email mentioned. Most Western European countries have a more 'socialistic' system than the US, yet none of them have failed so far - as a matter of fact, from what I know (I lived in Finland, and am still in touch with a number of people there), the recession has affected them far less than the US.

I do agree with you about the importance of taking risks sometimes in order to get a greater reward  - I did so in my personal life, after all - but you should remember that it is in the nature of things for only a small number of people to succeed. I can tell you there is no way I would risk my savings in some business venture, knowing the failure rate for new businesses, and the fact that I am inexperienced. It is easy to point out the successes and forget about the tragic effects of failures, or say that it was the people's fault. Life is much more complicated than that, or so I believe.
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Points: 66567 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:24
True, but it was still a big factor and one reason why the Soviet Union was so far behind the rest of the world technologically.  Although the biggest factor might be another famous saying.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely, which unfortunately seems to be another unfortunate human nature trait.
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Points: 36940 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:30
That email is far too simplistic, and I doubt its veracity (for one, a professor would likely get into trouble for failing a whole class). I doubt that the top students would agree to it if the experiments was explained, and even so, in my experience, good students do not just strive for top marks, but because of pride, and the wish to do as good a job as possible, they wish to do as well as possible (even in group projects).  One should expect that a good teacher would set it up in such a  way that the students were encouraged to work as a team, rather than just trying to teach them some particular ideological lesson (i.e. socialism doesn't work) and dooming them to failure in the process.  One can still have incentives in socialism, and recognise people for their good work and skill.  Not all are as able, or have the same work ethic, in a field, and not all are suitable for the same work. 


 I wrote something much longer about this earlier, but decided not to post it since I'm very ill, but read this: http://dailymull.com/1371/The-Tale-of-the-Economics-Professor
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:31
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

True, but it was still a big factor and one reason why the Soviet Union was so far behind the rest of the world technologically.  Although the biggest factor might be another famous saying.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely, which unfortunately seems to be another unfortunate human nature trait.


You will find me completely in agreement with your statement (actually Lord Acton'sWink) about absolute power. This is one of the reasons I love The Lord of the Rings so much - beneath all the fantasy trappings, there is a very true lesson about the effects of power on human nature, even when one starts with the best of intentions. But perhaps that is a topic for another threadSmile?
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Points: 7003 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:32
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

True, but it was still a big factor and one reason why the Soviet Union was so far behind the rest of the world technologically.  Although the biggest factor might be another famous saying.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely, which unfortunately seems to be another unfortunate human nature trait.
 
Except in the case of financiers, bankers, CEOs and those other masters of the universe who are regulated by the unseen hand of the market and therefore can be trusted implicitly to act for the greater good, right?
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom


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Points: 66567 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:38

Aye, but then who is regulating the regulators?
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Points: 36940 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:38
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

I should have noted that the views expressed in that email are not necessarily the views of the poster.  LOL  I just received that email the other day and thought it apropos in regards to this topic. 
 
Although, I do believe that human nature would provide that there is some truth to this analogy.  There may very well have been some A students that still tried hard and got their A's based on their own personal achievement, but apparently not enough to bring up the whole grade.  And I think pretty much everyone would think why should I work 80 hours a week dealing with the stress of my job if I could make the same pay working flipping burgers (not that that job doesn't have its own stresses or tediousness). 
 
Supposedly, it is this type of analogy that led to the "fall" of the Soviet Union.  (Yes, communism isn't socialism, but they are related, even if what the Soviet Union had was not quite what Marx had in mind when he wrote his manifesto).  
 
The greater this risk the greater the reward.  Maybe it is growing up in the US that raises us to think this way, but the reality is that this is how many people think. 


Not at all what Marx had in mind.  No state has ever became communist under Marx's workings.  I do think of communism as a form of socialism. The Soviet Union never achieved communism.
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Points: 13779 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:39
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

True, but it was still a big factor and one reason why the Soviet Union was so far behind the rest of the world technologically.  Although the biggest factor might be another famous saying.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely, which unfortunately seems to be another unfortunate human nature trait.


You've nailed the truth absolutely on the head. Lenin, via the revolution, commenced the dictatorship of the proletariat, which was the stepping stone of educating the masses before true communism was supposed to kick in. However, the state became overwhelming, the secret police became all powerful, and this was taken to the nth degree by Stalin, who proved the dictum about absolute power corrupting absolutely.

The Soviet experience proved beyond doubt that true communism, as idealised by Marx & Engels, will never get beyond the inherent human frailties that they both misunderstood so much.

The alternative, for us aging lefties, is democratic socialism, and for those who think this is inherently bad, I would point to the experience we are now living as regards the lassie faire capitalism model introduced by Thatcher & Reagan, and perpetuated by Blair & Bush, amongst others, which is collapsing all around us.

The lesson from this is that extremes of whatever ideology, either right or left, are absolutely unsuited to the mass human experience. I spend virtually all of my professional life fighting Trotskyists in my trade union - a bunch of narrow minded, inherently conservative (with a small c), idealogues who are sending my union and my members into a black hole of despair.

True democracy means providing intelligent, free willed, people with the means and power to acheive change based upon their own circumstances - but I despair of this being acheived in the present political climate.
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Points: 66567 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:44
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:



Not at all what Marx had in mind.  No state has ever became communist under Marx's workings.  I do think of communism as a form of socialism. The Soviet Union never achieved communism.
 
Yes, I started to type something to that effect regarding my reading of the Communist Manifesto 20 some years ago and how the Soviet Union was the last place in the world Marx would have implemented Communism, since it required the country to already be industrialized.  I haven't given much thought to these type things in close to 20 years however, so I decided to omit that.
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Points: 66567 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:46
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

True, but it was still a big factor and one reason why the Soviet Union was so far behind the rest of the world technologically.  Although the biggest factor might be another famous saying.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely, which unfortunately seems to be another unfortunate human nature trait.


You've nailed the truth absolutely on the head. Lenin, via the revolution, commenced the dictatorship of the proletariat, which was the stepping stone of educating the masses before true communism was supposed to kick in. However, the state became overwhelming, the secret police became all powerful, and this was taken to the nth degree by Stalin, who proved the dictum about absolute power corrupting absolutely.

The Soviet experience proved beyond doubt that true communism, as idealised by Marx & Engels, will never get beyond the inherent human frailties that they both misunderstood so much.

The alternative, for us aging lefties, is democratic socialism, and for those who think this is inherently bad, I would point to the experience we are now living as regards the lassie faire capitalism model introduced by Thatcher & Reagan, and perpetuated by Blair & Bush, amongst others, which is collapsing all around us.

The lesson from this is that extremes of whatever ideology, either right or left, are absolutely unsuited to the mass human experience. I spend virtually all of my professional life fighting Trotskyists in my trade union - a bunch of narrow minded, inherently conservative (with a small c), idealogues who are sending my union and my members into a black hole of despair.

True democracy means providing intelligent, free willed, people with the means and power to acheive change based upon their own circumstances - but I despair of this being acheived in the present political climate.
 
Well said. Clap
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Points: 7003 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:49

Let's see if we can come up with a propaganda email where an economics professor in - for example - Australia (Melbourne Technical Institute? No idea if there's any such place, but it sounds credible) has a class of ardent free market libertarians who inisist that the incentives of unfettered free markets bring out the best in everyone, and that a high differential in income is a good thing because of the 'trickle down' effect. Next, let's contrive an ill thought out grading - maybe 1 student is guaranteed to get a distinction, 2 get A's, and the remainder C's or fail - the early front runners (a) put increasingly less effort in as the term goes on becuase they're already pretty much certain to come out on top and (b) refuse to work with any lower acieving students for fear of anybody catching them up. The front runners become increasingly paranoid and secretive, the remainder disillusioned, nobody submits any work that is anywhere near the required standard and the professor loses his tenured position.

Simple enough.
 
Then copy and paste to as many people as possible.
'Like so many of you
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to the already rich among us...'

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Points: 7003 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:50
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Aye, but then who is regulating the regulators?

 
Well I'll do it if the pay is OK and I don't have too bad a commute to the office.
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom


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Points: 66567 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 15:52
Then who will regulate you? LOL 
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Points: 7003 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 16:34
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Then who will regulate you? LOL 
 
Uniweria Zekt, with the divine approbation of Kreuhn Kohrmann of course.
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom


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