No Offense, But Why...

It's not my sttereotypical Rap, it's the Rap we listen in all the radios, TV, everywhere, thousands opf bands have gained that credit. And I'm glad you admit that Rap has only touches of R&B as have touches of anything

BTW: Prog haters don't know ProgressiveRock doesn't need to progress.

DB4-Just keep in mind that there is an underground hip hop scene, and many acts that are not featured on radio or TV. I don't follow it, I sometimes read some reviews in Exclaim. And it seems to those who would better than either of us, that there is something more to Rap than bling, Hos, and Excess machismo. But, just as some of our fave prog acts have a devoted, but small following, there are Hip Hop artists who, at best, are making a career, a living if you will, while putting out good Hip Hop music.
If we relied on Radio and TV to describe prog, it would be limited to fancy fairy Tolkien inspired lyrics (Yes & early Rush), folksy oblique commentary (Tull, Strawbs), dark self centered anger (Waters' Floyd, Tool), pop with orchestra (Moody Blues) and not much else. We both know that this would not even begin to show but the slightest glimmer of the diamond that the prog scene was, is & hopefully will continue to be. And yes, prog-haters will use the same approach to ripping on prog. Focus on the stereotypes, over-emphasize the excesses, and avoid having to admit the actual breadth that the genre encompasses.

Do the names Steve Reich & Stockhausen ring a few bells ?

Good tactic, you only mention Reich and Stockhausen in the same context as samplers, leaving the door open for any casual reader to believe they are the same thing, but at the same time you don't mention what relation is there betweem the musicians and the samplers, just in case anybody proves you they are doing a radically different thing, very clever.

We agree there (only from..."And yes frankly...")

DB4- I liked the P diddy song, I didn't go out and buy it. Same as I liked watching Baywatch for a few minutes. Ear Candy, Eye Candy, Ephemera. And frankly, all genres have their "clones" (see neo-prog and the supposed Genesis influence thereupon).

Now there is one point to make here - rock n roll, including prog, is not innocent of plagiarizing/stealing/ or the mildest descriptor - lifting from other songs or musical acts. How many prog acts just played Bach pieces on electric instruments ?

 

A genre as Rock doesn't always nevesarilly needs virtuoso musicians, but imagine how great would The Beatles had been if they were also virtuoso musicians.
DB4  - For any music, you need good musicians. But good, that would mean in the talent dept, not necessarily the technical skills. Many a teenage guitar sensation can out play Robert Johnson. None has managed to make music for the ages as Monsieur J has.
And , (this one's for you T) if the Beatles had also been been virtuoso musos, would they have been Dream Theater

DB3 - Mention Queen - you know the bassline from Another One Bites the Dust is taken from the Sugarhill Gang. That part of the lyrics from the Beatles Come Together are
lifted from a few Chuck Berry tunes; that some claim that Deep Purple's Child in Time was a direct rip from an It's a Beautiful Day song. Indeed, Blackmore has publicly stated that the guitar line in Black Night is just the bass line from a Ricky Nelson song from the early 60s ( I would need to verify the title).

Queen had at least 100 songs and you mention one, The Beatles had even more, Deep Purple has a lot of albums, so in heir case is abn EXCEPTION, but sampling is a general rule in Rap, and they don't even perform the song, they play the album.

What's the difference with guys playing a record and adding one rhythm pattern and Milly Vanilly, I guess almost nothing.

DB4 - Again, you generalize. Sampling, when used, is not always just playing the whole backing arrangement, just to throw some words over. Many of the sampling that is done nowadays, and again, I emphasize that one must go beyond the Mainstream commercial & superficial surface that most of us are exposed to, is of sounds, beats, that then manipulated to create the finished product. As far as guys playing a record and adding a rhythm pattern, that is the stereotype, and no longer the rule. The Milli Vanilli part, I don't get.

The difference is that they are some cases of cloning among a big universe of original artists, in the case of Rap, you have to dig hours to find something valuable, that until now, I haven't found. 

well ... we're still fighting as to what prog actually is, eh

I don't find a noticeable difference to be honest.

DB4- Outkast are the kind of act that are the Hip Hop (no, not rap, but the wider genre) equivalent of Queen. Remember their hit from a year r two ago - Hey Ya . Acoustic guitar, pop perfection, and hooks galore. If it wasn't for the fact that videos still mattered a bit back then, most people would not have known this was a black duo. Gnarls Barkley, well ... if you have heard their smash "Crazy", well ... I still have people who can't figure how I can like this music, as they think I'm limited to classic, metal, prog and other louder types of music. Imagine modern soul. No rapping here, but some of the best singing you'll hear anywhere from the big man Cee Lo. Hip Hop, though, not rap. 50 cent. Unfortunately, the act that kept the Gangsta generating machine going in high gear. Don't care for him. PE and the Roots, see above comments. Kanye, as with some other genres' acts, his ego prevents me from even wanting to give him a listen (hello Yngwie); Eminem - surprisingly, he does have some good material. Unsurprisingly, some of his other material detracts from his talents, at least in some peoples ears (mine incl.). Lauryn Hill really represents the soul end of the Hip Hop genre. Which likely drove a big part of her solo success. Wyclef Jean, is good, but apart from a few songs, I don't really enjoy his music.

But as far as noticing a difference, we can apply the same principle as those who dislike or don't care for prog or any other genre ... if you haven't found at least one act that you like, you can't be bothered, eh.

As far as some of the descriptions, Krautrock is often described as repetitive drone-like 

Probably by people who doesn't know Kraut and ignores the Psychedelic and jamming base of it.
DB4 - Er, do you mean that it's ok to be repetitive if it's psychedelic and jam based ?

I never believed in genres based in geographic bases.
DB4 - I believe that if more people here at PA listened to it, we'd just get more negative reviews

I played my music to hundreeds of persons and even though the vast majority doesmn't like most of it, they can easily notice the difference between Genesis, Yes, Kansas, ELP, PFM or Anglagard without any problem,

Probably they won't be able to find the big deal, but I haven't heard a person say it's repetive, boring or lack of musicianship, most say it's too complex for them, but that's all..
DB4 - Yes, admittedly, if someone is taking the time or making the effort, they may see a difference. But, in my experience, they might hear a difference between bands, but not enough to say, oh that's not the band you just played yesterday, that's another group. As a matter of fact, none of my friends can tell the difference between any of the Italian bands I have (40 + and counting). They like some of it, and some others, it just sounds the same. As I outweigh them, and love to argue (who knew) they prefer the latter comment to saying it's boring

As for digging through crap to find the diamond, well ... what genre can claim to deserve that.

DB3 - No No. The Lou Reed example was just a point that I used in an arguement with some ex-friends. They justified their hatred (as if there aren't better things in the world to expend such emotional energy than music) of Rap by saying that it was not singing.

Ex-friends of mine said they hated rap, cause they were not singing. I asked them if they liked Lou Reed, to which they said  YEAH !. But Lou Reed, at best, does talking blues as a singing style, eh ..

You practically said Lou Reed was rapping, now you say it's only an example, you seem to be taking some more cards from your sleeve.

You say well if you TWIST or in other words, you modify a recorded tape, but samplers (most of them) don't do this (at least no one I heard), they simply play in a turntable a couple of catchy chords with no modification done by real artists and add artificial rhythm.

DB4- Again, the stereotype hides the reality. If I take a 12 bar blues in A, and change the words, and twist the beat, have I just copied ? In some cases, yes. But not all. Some use the basis to build upon.

As for repetition, well do you see how we could stretch that & include this

"Krautrock (also called “Kosmische musik”) is a German avant-garde / experimental rock movement that emerged at the end of the 1960’s. It was intended to go beyond the eccentricities developed by the wild psychedelic rock universe of the US, by giving a special emphasis to electronic treatments, sound manipulation and minimal hypnotic motifs (continuing the style of “musique concrete” and minimalist repetitive music but within a more accessible environment)."
 now of course, no one on this thread has seen to or been able to use such academic verbiage to describe rap. But electronic rteatments/sound manipulation = Y'all jus' messing wid da samples, man, bit s n pieces bent to fit da beat, bro. And the fun one could have trying to explain the difference between minimalist repetitive music and strongly repetitive with emphasis on the rhythm.

No sir, electronic treatments and sound manipulation is forcing an electronic instrument to the extreme, and minimalist approach is only a part of Kraut.

DB4- You simply must give a listen to Public Enemy's "Fear of a Black Planet" & "Apocalypse 91 ... The Enemy Strikes Black". There are guitar parts in there that would make an Avant-Gardist proud, there are keyboard notes that clang in off beats as accents to lyrics, and much much sound manipulation. Please note , though, this is not your mainstream 50 Cent type of Rap. This is music, not business.

My point, and I'm sure I have one somewhere in here, is that why not save time and say you can't see any value in this music, and just don't enjoy any of it, to the point of having no interest in even trying.

Honestly I tried, I used to get anything that was recommended as good eperimental Rap, and always was disappointed.
DB4 - No, I mean those who dismiss it, but have not put anymore effort than our beloved prog haters. And btw, when I see the word experimental, I wonder if they mean the band didn't know what they were doing or trying to do.

Sorry, but you lost me here
DB4 - Just saying that our presence in the time line, i.e. today, the present, right here right now; means that we can't foretell what music will still be listened to in a century, much less a decade or two. Some of our prog gods may well become as acclaimed as Bach, Beethoven & BTO. Arguing about it will have no effect. I was going to use the New Kids on the Block as an example of "15 minutes of mega fame", but I've heard they're getting together for a reunion tour. To which I say " WHERE ARE THE BAY CITY ROLLERS ?"
In summary, for all we know, in 2112, Garth Brooks lives on and becomes the Iconic Country musician, and not Johnny Cash. And maybe Creed's 40 million albums sold will fetch more than 50 cents at pawn shops someday. All I know is that it won't matter to me, 'cause I'll likely smell kinda funny after a few years in the ground.
Oh, and I know that Klaatu & Ange will be eventually regarded as highly by music scholars as I strongly believe that I couldn't be wrong about my objective admiration for their music.

END OF CHEOPS QUOTE PYRAMID

That's why I made the base of the pyramid shorter. ..

Iván
DB4 - You're lucky the Habs played a sucky game (lost 5-1 to the Bruins). If they'd won, I'd be flying.
DB

P.S. Does not !