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Certif1ed View Drop Down
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 03:30

There are many problems that I perceive with Prog Metal, but the key problem I have is deducing the "Prog" part of it.

Technique does not equal Prog - metal bands throughout the ages have been trying to prove that they are not Blue Cheer (arguably the very first heavy metal band), by continually adding to the arsenal of techniques that makes up the genre.
 
This is somewhat compounded, because there are a large number of bands who have played metal that simply said "to hell with the technique, let's rock" - and both approaches are great, as far as I'm concerned.
 
I was and still am passionate about each significant wave of heavy metal, including Metallica, Slayer, Napalm Death et al - but "Progressive Metal" bands as a rule have always irked me as being anything but progressive - starting with Queensryche and continuing through everything I've heard in that genre.
 
It has nothing to do with how heavy they are - I adore heavy riffs.
 
I also get impressed by speed - I wouldn't actually buy anything by Dragonforce, for example, as they're too derivative, but their speed is very impressive.
 
I like an orchestrated and choralised sound with metal - but since rock bands as a rule have little sense of orchestration or choral scoring, I avoid most music in this arena. It's not a combination of metal and classical any more than Yngwie Malmsteen's excessive use of the cycle of fifths in his early music.
 
 
No, the main problem with Prog Metal is that it pretends to be something it's not - it's too overly pretentious for my tastes.
 
When you can hear the "actual" quality of the musicians contrasting with the amount of time they've spend learning smoke and mirrors techniques, it's laughable really, and an abuse of the term "Progressive".
 
 
The "emotion" is where you perceive it. Personally, the only emotion I get from Prog Metal is disbelief at the pretension. The vocalists, generally, have no sense of melodic purpose - which doesn't mean writing a catchy tune, it means demonstrating an understanding of how the vocal melody can lead and blend in with the music. Death Metal growls don't scare me - I like Napalm Death, and was a huge fan of Venom, Possessed and Bathory when they started out.
 
 
I won't get started on the keyboards, which are for the most part naff, but the thing that annoys me most (apart from "acoustic" passages based on simple riffing) is the incoherence of musical form in Prog Metal.
 
 
There are probably a few I've left out - but that should keep the ball rolling a while... Smile
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Points: 21578 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 03:58
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 
When you can hear the "actual" quality of the musicians contrasting with the amount of time they've spend learning smoke and mirrors techniques, it's laughable really, and an abuse of the term "Progressive".



Now that's interesting ... which technique is "smoke and mirrors" and which isn't? Obviously you're not referring to techniques per se, but to the decisions of the musicians when to use it and when not to. And this is highly debatable ... compare for instance Therion - Vovin and Symphony X - Twilight in Olympus. Of course you can choose to bash them both ... but isn't the Symphony X album much, much better than the Therion album in terms of musicianship and use/choice of technique? And aren't there even worse albums than Vovin? What I'm trying to say is: As much as you may dislike pretentios and "flashy" use of technique ... credit is due for most of these albums.Wink
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Points: 65602 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 03:59
To me it's really very simple; there are bands that play heavy metal that is progressive: unusually complex music with a high level of musicianship, but based on the heavy guitar lines of bands such as Sabbath, Maiden and Judas Priest, as well as Rush, Queen and others, not the other way around, i.e. prog rock that is heavy. In the context of traditional metal, it was an evolution, a maturing of the form. It may be that Progmetal as we know it has peaked and is being stereotyped more and more as a confined style, but it was still progressive in its time.

It is a form of rock music that has progressed, and frankly it deserves its place at PA.





Edited by Atavachron - March 27 2007 at 04:34
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Points: 7113 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 04:02
Punk tried to beat the metal...it was THROWN DOWN.
"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 04:21
Cert, as a matter of interest, what prog-metal bands have you listened too?
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 04:35
^Among others, Queensryche, Dream Theater, Opeth, A.C.T., Meshuggah, Pain of Salvation, Fantomas and Tool (just off the top of my head).
 
 
Good to see the Kronos Quartet in your top albums Clap
 
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21578 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 04:40
^ I remember your review of Fantomas - Suspended Animation ... did you also listen to the debut? Strongly recommended!
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 04:44
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 
When you can hear the "actual" quality of the musicians contrasting with the amount of time they've spend learning smoke and mirrors techniques, it's laughable really, and an abuse of the term "Progressive".



Now that's interesting ... which technique is "smoke and mirrors" and which isn't? Obviously you're not referring to techniques per se, but to the decisions of the musicians when to use it and when not to. And this is highly debatable ... compare for instance Therion - Vovin and Symphony X - Twilight in Olympus. Of course you can choose to bash them both ... but isn't the Symphony X album much, much better than the Therion album in terms of musicianship and use/choice of technique? And aren't there even worse albums than Vovin? What I'm trying to say is: As much as you may dislike pretentios and "flashy" use of technique ... credit is due for most of these albums.Wink
 
I don't know those albums - I'm just generalising based on what I have heard, which I believe is a fairly representative sample.
 
Your summary is good - it's context that's important, as in all music. There is no music without rules - but there are ways of using and even breaking those rules that demonstrate imagination and creativity in a reasonably quantifiable way.
 
However, "flashy" is not necessarily bad - consider Paganini, or even Vai - it's pretention that I dislike, and "smoke and mirrors" means just that - using a selection of carefully practiced techniques to show your skill with those techniques instead of using them because the music at that moment demands it.
 
I will check out the albums you've mentioned - I never "bash" without several good listens first.
 
Wink
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 04:52
Cert, try Riverside and Indukti, they're not normal metal bands.  Indukti's debut S.U.S.A.R. is one of my favourite prog-metal albums and I'm not the biggest metal fan around.  Most metal (whether prog or not), passes me by.

I see you've tried Opeth and Pain of Salvation.  Now to me, PoS don't always sound that metal, so I was curious as to what you disliked about them?

And yes, Kronos Quarter are wonderful and I certainly need more stuff by them.  Alamaailman Vasarat are also wonderful.  I've always liked the 'cello in music.
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Points: 2703 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 04:58
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

  
Good to see the Kronos Quartet in your top albums Clap
 
 
Very sorry for off-top, but which albums by Kronos Quartet would you recommend?
I have two - and both are compeletely not what I remotely expected. Also I understand that Kronos Quartet are playing music of many composers as any orchestra or chamber ensemble for that purpose usually do.
 
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 05:03
I only have two.  Black Angels and Caravan.  Both are great, but I'd say Caravan is the more listenable, whilst Black Angels is the more avant like.

They also did the music for the film Requiem for a Dream.
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Points: 2703 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 05:35
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

I only have two.  Black Angels and Caravan.  Both are great, but I'd say Caravan is the more listenable, whilst Black Angels is the more avant like.

They also did the music for the film Requiem for a Dream.
 
Thanks, James, but is it their own music or who is the composer ???
They did countless number of records, but I understand you need to find out whose music they are playing first to see if it's up your alley...
 
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 05:40
Yes, they tend to play others' music.  It depends what composers you like.

A list of albums is here: http://rateyourmusic.com/artist/kronos_quartet

Which ones do you have?  Some of them have Hendrix covers on, some have covers of composers works on them, including Osvaldo Golijov, John Adams, Shostokovich, Terry Riley, Philip Glass and many others.


Edited by Geck0 - March 27 2007 at 05:41
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Points: 80 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 06:31
The thing about DT-style prog metal that's a bit weird for me is that much of the music seems more rooted in hard rock rather than what I would think of as metal.  To me, Dream Theater, Shadow Gallery, etc. aren't much distant in sound from Spock's Beard, Neal Morse, sometimes Rush. When DT opt for a heavier sound (ToT), it sounds forced and dull, compared to their more melodic albums. The metal aspect is what's lacking in a lot of prog metal, I think. Sure, they capture the speed, but much of the aggression is lost, along the dark mood/atmosphere that one might look for in metal. Many seem to neglect the fact that metal is a fairly diverse genre, and stick with the over worn staples of Iron Maiden and Metallica as inspiration. 

Edited by Selkie - March 27 2007 at 06:32
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 08:36
Originally posted by eugene eugene wrote:

Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

I only have two.  Black Angels and Caravan.  Both are great, but I'd say Caravan is the more listenable, whilst Black Angels is the more avant like.

They also did the music for the film Requiem for a Dream.
 
Thanks, James, but is it their own music or who is the composer ???
They did countless number of records, but I understand you need to find out whose music they are playing first to see if it's up your alley...
 
 
Black Angels is awesome - it's a great interpretation of the composition by George Crumb, and very avant-garde. To "get it" is a real stretch of the musical imagination for many - but worth it, IMHO. You'll never hear music the same again, once you understand what Crumb was trying to achieve.
  
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Cert, try Riverside and Indukti, they're not normal metal bands.  Indukti's debut S.U.S.A.R. is one of my favourite prog-metal albums and I'm not the biggest metal fan around.  Most metal (whether prog or not), passes me by.
 
More to try... Big%20smile
 
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:


I see you've tried Opeth and Pain of Salvation.  Now to me, PoS don't always sound that metal, so I was curious as to what you disliked about them?
 
I really can't remember what I disliked - I tend to forget music I don't like.
 
In this thread, though, the discussion is about the "problem" with prog metal - I'm not trying to say why I don't like it - that's a different discussion - but why I personally have an issue with it in the context of Prog music.
 
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:


And yes, Kronos Quarter are wonderful and I certainly need more stuff by them.  Alamaailman Vasarat are also wonderful.  I've always liked the 'cello in music.
 
I've never come across Alamaailman Vasarat... more to explore!
 
Have you encountered the Butcher Shop Quartet? (Rock). They did an extrememly interesting interpretation of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring".
 
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

 
...compare for instance Therion (...) and Symphony X (... )
 
 
 
 
Just about sums up my every criticism about form and use of style over content - reminds me of Kamelot but without the brass section. While it appealed to my tastes initially, I got bored waiting for the music to develop - which, of course, it doesn't. I listened to many examples of their stuff on You Tube, and it's nicely polished - but metal.
 
Metal bands throughout history have tried to add a "classical" edge to their music, and   Ritchie Blackmore is probably the main culprit behind this - although his style was more firmly rooted in Baroque music.
 
You're right - this is pretty simple stuff, and pretentious in that it aspires to be operatic simply because of the singer, who sounds a bit operatic in tone - but there is much worse out there.
 
 
Symphony X - nice that you pick an album with a track entitled "Smoke and Mirrors"... LOL
 
Much of what I found sounds very Helloween+Malmsteen. It's OK, but it's a direct and obvious evolution of metal - and again, nothing I found broke the formal moulds. I might just as well be listening to Dragonforce, except that Symphony X feel slower. The first song I found was even called "Evolution" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k4Sm1PN9cE
 
It's the whole sense of deja-vu that puts me off really - I'm more interested in music that clearly breaks new ground - like Fantomas - than music that has such a tight focus on what has gone before.
 
 
Why isn't evolution prog (and I'm not talking about the song)?
 
Listen to how ABBA evolved from their debut to their final album, and listen to how Coldplay have evolved.
 
Evolution is what should happen and does happen to a decent band that's worth its salt.
 
Writing progressive music is much harder and takes a lot of creativity, effort and risk of audience alienation - hence popular bands, or bands that want to fit a genre (ie market a product) tend not to do it.


Edited by Certif1ed - March 27 2007 at 08:38
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Points: 21578 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 08:50
^ You can't judge the track Evolution on its own ... listen to the full album (Symphony X - V), which is one of my favorite albums of all time and IMO a truly successful fusion of (Power) Metal and Classical music. The track Evolution (#2 on the album) serves as a kind of introduction to the album concept ... it's intentionally kept quite simple and harmonic, as it depicts a society *before* its collapse. It's a highlight for me though because of the congenial legato riff which is one of the rhythm guitar techniques which Romeo is famous for ... try playing it on the guitar - it's not too difficult at lower speed, but a bit tricky to "pull off" at high speed while at the same time sounding fluently.

Here you can download various Symphony X tracks: http://www.symphonyx.com/audio.html

Highlights (from the downloadable tracks): Communion and the Oracle, Awakenings, The Accolade, and if you like heavier thrash metal you should dig King of Terrors and Inferno too.Big%20smile
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Points: 1009 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 09:20
The problem with Prog metal?

In the words of the Eagles "Everything, All the time."

Having "soul" means knowing when to lay back and when to go for it. These guys are just all "go" and it wears me out in 10 minutes or less.

Edited by Trademark - March 27 2007 at 14:08
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Points: 1059 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 09:37
I'm not particularly keen on prog metal because I get a little tired of the widdly guitars after a while. 
I much prefer the metal without the prog. Heavily distorted guitars playing crunching riffs with the occasional solo thrown in.

 
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Points: 153 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 09:59
Perhaps Prog Metal is the only dragging force that makes progressive alive and well nowadays.
With much respect toward other prog sub-genres,that i appreciate very much in all of shapes.Wink
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Points: 2506 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2007 at 13:39
No problems with prog metal at all...
Maybe with some unoriginal and uninspired DT clones and some arrogant and close minded fanboys.
I don't particularly like "normal" metal, with some exceptions(Black Sabbath, Metallica, Nevermore for instance) but the most of the crowd does nothing for me except some bore and annoyance.
But to each her or his own.Smile
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