The "problem" with prog metal
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Topic: The "problem" with prog metal
Posted By: Sasquamo
Subject: The "problem" with prog metal
Date Posted: December 22 2006 at 23:22
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I think this is a deceivingly simple question I'm about to ask: If you don't care much for progressive metal, is it because you simply do not like metal, or because you don't like the result of the combination of metal and prog? Or is it a different reason? |
Replies:
Posted By: MadcapLaughs84
Date Posted: December 22 2006 at 23:30
Maybe you're too purist and you just enjoy prog in his natural state. Which is very respectable. ------------- 
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Sasquamo wrote:Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: December 22 2006 at 23:38
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People who don't like it don't like it because either it's too heavy for them to take and they prefer the lighter stuff(for example some older folks), don't like music that's too fast and technical(admittedly, most prog metal is), or they are just snobs too close minded to even give it a try. First two cases I respect, third one not. Same with Prog Electronic by the way, it's very similar to prog metal in a way, they are both extremes of prog music and about equally disliked. Prog metal haters just tend to be more outspoken for some reason. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 22 2006 at 23:41
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Anyone digging on the amazing math metal from the mid-western U.S.?
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Posted By: enteredwinter
Date Posted: December 22 2006 at 23:44
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I'm willing to bet that, as a a general rule, there are very few people on this site who are big fans of non-prog metal and yet dislike prog-metal as a genre. My guess is that the two go hand-in-hand. If a person absolutely hates heavy metal like old-school Metallica/Megadeth/Slayer and that sort of thing, the same person is probably unlikely to enjoy Opeth, Tool, and Dream Theater (at least their heavier stuff), for example. On the flip side, if a person on this site loves non-prog metal, I'm willing to bet that he/she is a fan of at least a few prog metal acts. I may be wrong though, and I'd be interested to hear of exceptions (personally I fall into the category of liking both "regular" and prog metal). |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 00:02
I really don't like normal metal at all, but I like prog metal quite a bit from the small amount I've heard. I guess a little bit of prog makes everything better for me.
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 00:07
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I think you're generally correct. I dislike metal simply because it's too loud and I fail to see the enjoyment in a bunch of loud, crunching, often repetitive guitars that much of the time are more focused on technical abilities. I also like atmospheres, which is something prog-metal often neglects(although less so since my tinnitus has come about because the high pitched buzzing can easily ruin a nice quiet section). The problem I have with much avant-prog is that it resorts to metal too often, almost as a copout (we can't think of anything next to play, so we'll splice in some ridiculously heavy guitars and screaming! All right!)
I am, however, currently enjoying Kayo Dot, who for me remedy many of prog-metal's problems. The Manifold Curiousity is an amazing song, and I'm probably going to buy Choirs of the Eye soon. This is a big deal for me, because I really, really dislike heavy metal, and I usually have some trouble with more avant-garde stuff. The metal parts (from what I've heard) can be a little extreme, sometimes too extreme, but they are balanced with long soft sections. Most metal lacks this balance, and the metal parts are more natural buildups or extensions, unlike, say Mr. Bungle, which seems to just be throwing stuff together. The only other prog-metal band that I have liked is LTE, because they have at least some balance and I like the improvisatory feel, I only really like Acid Rain, Another Dimension, and When the Water Breaks. I guess it's good I got LTE 2 though, because it helped inure me to metal so now I can enjoy Kayo Dot. At first it always gave me a headache, but now after many listens only the end of Another Dimension is a little too much (at least I think that's the song). |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 00:10
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The only problem I see is that it's too Metal to be really Prog and too Prog to be really Metal, so some musicians get caught in the middle of a loud pompous and guitar virtuoso based genre and a normally softer but also pompous and virtuoso based genre.
The ego of a Metalhead and a Proghead together, exceed the dimension of any stage.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 01:48
That's my impression too... I also tend to dislike that metal ego (as now)... I just can't stand the crunching guitars, wailing/growling/grunting vocals, the "louder than thou" attitude or that "rock on dude" vibe...I can really get past some LTE (Biaxident, Osmosis, even great part of When The Water Breaks.. as opposed to Another Dimension, Chewbacca or Paradigm Shift).... but Dream Theater, Opeth, Symphony X, Angra.... no, thank you I'm not trying to offend anyone... I'm just in a different wave, that's all ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: dltonya
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 02:23
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My Uncle and I provide a great example of the prog-metal argument. He started off in his youth (he's about 52 now) listening to Deep Purple, Mountain, Hendrix as well as Genisis and Gentle Giant. When he discovered Jazz Fusion in the mid 70's, he turned away from rock and prog rock almost completely. He's an admitted fusion snob.
I started listening to metal when I was in my teens. I listened to pre-sellout Metallica, Megadeth, and Anthrax. However, thanks to the dangers of finding the Prog Archives, I've gone completely nuts with Prog rock over the last 3 years. When I visit his house on Sundays (football ritual) I try and bring along some new prog recording (Anglagard, Anekdoten, Porcupine Tree) to listen to and discuss. Unfortunately, he usually shoots down the recording pretty fast because it isn't jazz fusion. If it's prog-metal, he won't even let it play, so I've given up on showing him anything unique or cool in that genre (Gordian Knot, Ayreon, The Gathering).
I can't say as I'm that different either. I'm 34 now and I wouldn't be able to listen to the music of my youth (Def Leppard and the like). Occasionally my younger cousins would like me to play one of those bands on my big stereo and I cringe at the thought!
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 05:07
| No problem at all thus far, but out of respect to our members who enjoy the genre, can we please ensure this does not become a prog metal bashing thread. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 05:10
| I think it is the combination of metal and prog. If you didn't like metal and then it combines with your favorite music genre, you probably will try and avoid it. |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 05:20
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For me, mainstream metal is too predictable, and has a very short shelf life in my collection. I think that groups like Ten, Emerald Rain and even Stratovarius for instance, pen some great tunes, but ultimately they aren't challenging or complex, and I get bored of them quite quickly. I know that after 10-12 listens, I won't want to play them any more... maybe that's equally a criticism of me as it it of them.
On the other hand, the reason why I love Beyond Twilight, Tool and Pain of Salvation for instance is that it takes me longer to thoroughly appreciate all apsects of the music, which is why they bare far more repeated listens, and end up staying in my collection.
In short, that is why I enjoy Prog Metal, but have very little mainstream metal in my collection. ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 05:29
I know what you mean about mainstream metal. I was into it for all of 5 months. It just wasn't varied enough. But prog metal has varying elements and that is probably what attracts listeners. I only listen to non-prog metal when I need something to get my energy up when doing exercises and the like. |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 06:05
yeah its strange... for me, metal has to have an 'angle' to make it interesting... take Jorn Lande for instance... the material he did with 'Ark' bears far more listens than the stuff he did with 'Masterplan' even tho it was highly polished and professional.. I bought the 2 MP albums on ebay very cheap, listened to them a few times and sold them on.
I just can't seam to put in to words to my Bro-In-Law and his brother, who are both mainstream metalheads and just like 4 minute songs consisting of 3 verses, chorus and short guitar solo, why I think that the bands they listen to are so uninspired in comparason... when I play them prog metal, their eyes glaze over and they pass it off as mere technical w**kery... there seams to be so little middle ground between us, when Kamelot is a complex as they want to get, and Kamelot is as straight forward as I want to listen to...  ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 06:28
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^ there are interesting non-prog metal albums too. Same as in every genre!
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 06:36
oh, you know I agree with you Mike... I was just using a broad brushstroke analysis ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 06:53
I agree with both of you...I like HM, but certainly not all of it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 07:38
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I'm a big fan of traditional metal, including the originals like Iron Maiden and Diamond Head, and the more recent bands like Hammers of Misfortune. I also enjoy most forms of doom metal, although not bands like Anathema or My Dying Bride. Lastly, technical thrash bands like Voivod, Doom and Martyr will never cease to amaze me. I dislike power-progressive metal because it's too happy and too over-reaching - rarely do I feel that the musicians are as accomplished in songwriting as they'd like to think. This goes double for virtuoso bands like Dream Theater who can play in any style they wish and yet compromise between neo-prog and hard rock - neo-prog simply isn't prog to me (I apologize for this viewpoint but I've sampled plenty of it, finding only UK and Shingetsu worth repeat listens) and likewise, hard rock has a different vibe to that of metal. So overall, Dream Theater and similar bands are billed as something I'd enjoy... by a misnomer. The early stuff like Fates Warning and Queensryche isn't all that bad and they both have songs that I enjoy, and yet I'd rather listen to true metal or fully progressive rock than place one foot on either side of the river. There are a few so-called prog metal bands that I enjoy but I find myself categorising them in a different way - for example, Meshuggah are technical thrash, Kayo Dot, MotW and Fantomas are various flavours of avant-garde and bands such as !T.O.O.H.! or Cephalic Carnage are technical death/grind. Katatonia and Anathema's postmelancholic doom rock is about as progressive to me as Coldplay, which is to say not at all. Additionally, I disagree that the "post-metal" subgenre we have here is particularly progressive, not that I don't love Isis. In summation, prog-metal is a greedy genre that I pick at the edges of, while hating its base "sound". Hope this helps. ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 07:52
| Your right about the angle to keep it interesting, fandango. I got some Rammstein a few months ago and I like it for a little bit because it was the first metal band that I listened to that had keyboards. But then I got bored until I found Opeth. Now I listen to that band as much as other prog bands I have. |
Posted By: Eat_Paris
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 09:16
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i dont have problem appreciating from.. say.. Spiral Architect.. to.. say... Close To The Edge (Yes).. metal IS goooood!!!!! ------------- "love prog .. simply because its beautiful" .. and lindsay lohan =P~ |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 09:27
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The problem is allowing the metal part to take a higher predominance in the composition. Though listed as Rio/Avant prog band, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum sounds like prog metal should for me. Free form composition garnished with metalesque elements, but focused on producing original sounds instead of cloning a glam rock / heavy metal song with intrincated Kansas / ELP sections. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: Eat_Paris
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 09:34
 cant handle too much palm muting and heavy distortion eh? ------------- "love prog .. simply because its beautiful" .. and lindsay lohan =P~ |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 09:52
That reason would be that electronic music is very very experimental (interesting cases at least, like Pansonic, Spacemen 3, etc.), while prog metal is too much into the "metal" sound. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 09:55
¿Have you heard Sleepytime Gorilla Museum?. What I can't take is shape over content. Imitating Heavy metal riffs and adding an orchestra doesn't make it interesting. Using both elements to create a challenging piece of music is. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 09:57
Not true. But thanks for verifying his statement. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 10:03
But if you take out more of the metal bit. It wouldn't be prog metal, would it? |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 10:17
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Edit: Ignore this post - the bands I mention are all correctly categorised. :P I've always thought of metal as its own genre, albeit rooted in rock. There are several key sounds involved and bands like SGM, Fantomas and Estradasphere feature none of them for sustained periods; of course Fantomas have a thing for playing thrash in six second bursts, but they spend far more CD time creating little incidental soundscapes. Their inclusion into the prog-metal genre confuses me, as I see them as avant-garde bands (or avant-fusion in Estradasphere's case) simply using modern musical tools. Most of the bands from the japanese Zeuhl scene can be heavy but I haven't seen anyone clamoring for their inclusion into prog-metal, and that's because they're heavy but not metallic. Same deal with these new avant-style bands. PS, I can't stand Sleepytime Gorilla Museum. :P ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 10:18
For me, I haven't found too much metal with a high affinity for great chord progressions. I love a good progression, but a lot of prog metal focuses on Dream Theater-esque jamming, which is good, but not optimal for me. Pain of Salvation is one band that really excells in this area. By the way, if you know of some good bands that fit this description, then tell me please!  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Eat_Paris
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 10:20
hehe offcourse there is good prog met and the bad ones...my point is there is nothing wrong with prog met... symph prog, neo prog, prog met.. they're all prog....  ------------- "love prog .. simply because its beautiful" .. and lindsay lohan =P~ |
Posted By: progadicto
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 10:24
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I like some progmetal bands. In fact I'm digging into the math rock stuff and it's good... But I'm not a fan. Maybe it's because I'm a little purist or just becuase that I like more symphonic rock, RIO, avant garde, kraut and stugg like that... But I have to recognize that is a lot of excellent progmetal bands even when I don't like them. And I respect people who likes this stuff...
------------- ... E N E L B U N K E R... |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 10:35
I'll try to be obviuos. My limitations with english turns explaining myself into a hard task. Anyway; the main thing for me in music is forget about label or genre and follow a truly creative impulse. That's probably why I enjoy "Lateralus" (Tool) as much as I enjoy "Feels" (Animal Collective). I've heard a thousand bands like Angra or Rapsody, but only one Primus. I'm not at all against loud guitars, I'm against meaningless loud guitars. I'm not concerned about the "what", but about the "why" beyond the what. In appreciation, one must thing in the basic terms of music, but expanded. Meaning, interpretation ("feeling" is as important as execution ("Joe Satriani", virtuoso speed show stuff), but in this days, those terms are far more intrincated, relation between meaning (feeling), materials / elements used to compose; mixtures, etc., provide a multi layered in wich reading can become infinite. Off course, there is also Steve Vai; no layers at all. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: MajesterX
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 11:43
I agree. I also think that a lot of Prog Metal draws on modern metal with several 3-6 minute songs with heavy riffing, a guitar solo and chorus, but is played in a more sophisticated way, with a couple 10 minute songs thrown on the album. I've listened to much of the mp3 metal samples on this site, and I really don't enjoy most of them because they're just not very original, This is why I think bands like DT, Opeth, Tool, POS, and Riverside are at the top. The songs are always opened with a short spacey drone into heavy riffing, straight riffing, a slow guitar opening into riffing or a cheesy keyboard intro. The songs follow with high to medium range vocals with the occasional growl. Crazy guitar solos with symphonic keys are likely, so it's pretty predictable. This is normal, but there are several bands that are very original. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 11:46
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I just find that all the prog metal I have ever heard was incredibley cheesy. -------------  
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 11:50
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^ I think that the Blair/Bush = Nazi picture in your sig is incredibly cheesy. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 11:54
As is often the case, I agree with Ivan. It's not a good marriage, imo- too much bombast for the human ear to bear in some bands. There are of course exceptions- I quite like 'Lateralus' by Tool, Mastodon's 'Leviathan' is a good meeting of prog and metal with minimal shredding and Opeth also manage to juggle the two very well. One of the Pain Of Salvation tracks I played on this site I thought was decent, too. But Dream Theater is the band I REALLY struggle with- I've had half of their discography and I can't come to terms with it. Believe me, I have tried. Even though I gave it 3 stars out of fairness, I found Images and Words a chore to get through when I reviewed it. I don't honestly see what's all that progressive in their music- a lot of metal and AOR, but unless prog is lots of long, long and very fast solos I don't really hear so much prog in their output apart from on 'Scenes From A Memory' and the title track of 'Octavarium', both of which I liked. But how on earth 'Images and Words' is some kind of prog masterpiece completely escapes me personally. I find a lot of their music is jarring and rather unstructured with a song struggling to emerge from the shredding. Mars Volta I similarly have problems with- it's very screechy and too bombastic even for me, with very little subtlety that I could hear. I wouldn't say it's a genre that has no merits- like I said, some of it I like, but the genre's flagship band Dream Theater do it no favours at all, imho. Still, I feel as if I should like it more than I actually do seeing as I love 70s and some 80s metal and prog rock. But in terms of my own personal taste, I do genuinely prefer neo prog. |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 11:58
I cant awnser, I like prog metal...quite a lot
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 12:28
True, but then again prog is cheesy in general. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 12:35
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^ good point! It's all a matter of perspective ... to some punk fans any non-punk music may seem cheesy. IMO those prog metal albums that mainly deal with fantasy - dungeons, dragons, etc - may be called "objectively cheesy", but even then there are some fans who would disagree. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 12:39
It's not cheesy! Don't you diss my dungeons and dragons!!
I don't really think any prog is cheesy. I try ot get as much prog as possible no matter what the sub genre. There is no problem with prog metal, in my opinion. It is just the older generation *cough* Peter Rideout *cough* like to poke fun at teh seriousness of prog metal listeners. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 12:39
| I will say, though I don't mind 'The Divine Wings...' as such, I did find Symphony X in particular to be very cheesy indeed. Perhaps more so than any other prog metal band because they've got that huge 'power metal' sound to contend with also, which I personally dislike. Again, I think this is a band that probably harms people's perception of the genre but yet probably fare better in terms of criticism because I don't think they are anywhere near as hyped as DT are. Yet like 'Images and Words', I didn't hear much that was prog about 'The Odyssey'...didn't keep that one for long. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 12:40
Yep. I personally find it hard to come up with many non-cheesy prog artists. Off the top of my head I can only think of Allan Holdsworth. Even highly accomplished bands like King Crimson, Gentle Giant and VdGG border on cheesiness IMO. |
Posted By: MajesterX
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 14:49
I agree! For some reason it seems that you can take the same lyrics and themes that are in a long symphonic prog song from the 70's and put it into a metal context and it becomes much cheesier. Maybe it's because with the added intensity of Metal things may seem over the top, yet there are many prog metal bands that do things in such a non-cheesy way. I can't think of anyone but Opeth that could get away with a great-sounding song about "The baying of the hounds" and "diabolical beasts". I think it all has to do with the metaphoric content of the song. Maybe that's why power metal bands like Blind Guardian get such a bad wrap (though Rhapsody...I mean Rhapsody "of Fire" is so undeniably cheesy, sorry to fans). -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:15
It's evident I lioke Prog being here, it's also true that I like a lot of plain Metal (Which has nothing of plain).
The combination of Prog and Metal is want makes me nuts in most of the cases. I feel (Oversimplifying) that Tales from Oceans, Garden of Angels (Anglagard is Swedish), Lambs on Broadway or the wives of any king don't blend too well with leather and flashy guitar solos.
Iván
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Posted By: chessman
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:17
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Simple answer from me:
Heavy guitar solos and blazing chords have done nothing for me since I was about 15! Standardised, formularised, and stagnant they seem.
Ok, the musical ideas can sometimes be good, and some songs may be quite long and elaborate in a progressive way, but that doesn't save them from the obligatory 'heavy, infectious riffing' and the 'oh no, it's time for another unoriginal solo!'
Too often, it's an excuse for a guitarist to say 'look how fast and loud I can play this thing!'
If I want metal I will listen to metal, but I don't like it in prog (although the occasional heavy guitar can be effective, if used sparingly and tastefully).
Just not my bag, I'm afraid, but each to their own; I never knock other people's tastes. In fact, it's a refreshing thing to hear what other people like.
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Posted By: ResidentAlien
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:19
Lol, yet another one forming a hackneyed opinion of a genre based on one crappy band (Dream Theater). Try some Maudlin of the Well. Not all Prog Metal is about blazing fast guitar work. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:23
But a lot is. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:25
| Yes I said the same- it's not simply a case of 'if you don't like metal, you won't like prog metal'. That's way too much of an over-simplification. |
Posted By: ResidentAlien
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:26
Some.... I don't typically listen to Dream Theater clones though. |
Posted By: Clark Ashton
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:27
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I feel there are too many prog-metal bands that are either cookie cutter acts of Queensryche, Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Anathema, My Dying Bride, and Paradise Lost or Nu-Metal bands under the "Math Metal" guise.
But there are others that bring something new and unique to the table. ------------- And he took the stars In his hands And as he scattered them he’d shout “I’m the joker of the universe I’m what it’s all about” |
Posted By: ResidentAlien
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:30
Yeah, sure. Same could be said for nearly any genre. Which is why hating on Prog-Metal really confuses me. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:30
| I think we have just got Exhibit A posted on this forum of why the genre gets a bad rep- check out the post about it being a 'simple fact' that 'Dream Theater is the best progressive band of all time'. That monumental overhype (I'd not claim that of even any of the 70s bands, let alone a more modern one- it's simply impossible to prove) automatically sets us more cynical types off. |
Posted By: ResidentAlien
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:32
| Yeah, saw that topic. There are lots of bands I adore... but claiming any to be the best is pretty ridiculous. My favorite band is Pink Floyd... but even they had their misses. Final Cut anyone? No band is infalliable. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:33
Well, I don't mind The Final Cut too much. See? It's impossible to prove!  I'd just avoid that DT topic completely and let it die a death before a war starts...
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Posted By: ResidentAlien
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:37
Nah... best to have a little fun with it.  As for Final Cut... it has it's moments. I find it rather disappointing as a whole. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:38
| I like how the topic poster said "With all my respect to every progressive band !!!" even though he said they were all second to Dream Theater in the title. Oh the irony kills me. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:39
I don't blame the Prog Metal bands for this allergic reaction, I would blame SOME fans, I remember a couple of years ago when we had 11 Dream Theater threads open simultaneously about Dream Theater (Every day) and some of them with members ready to kill yopu if you were not willing to accept that DT was the best band in history.
Iván
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:40
That's scary. I might just have to get some Dream Theater because of that. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:47
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Yes, there's only a certain contingent of fans that get hot under the collar about it. How many 'CTTE is overrated' or 'Pink Floyd are not prog' or 'Genesis are boring and dated' threads have we had? I personally take those as the reactionary posts they are intended as and ignore them, rather than the behaviour of some, when that Petrucci shred corruption thing on YouTube was deemed as 'disrespectful' by a few people...Come on now, lighten up a bit.
I do remember the Octavarium days though. I'd just joined the forum then- I'd even go so far to say that the new DT album should NOT be put on the site until the day it is released after that, when there were hundreds of 5 star reviews literally weeks before it was issued. That was just ridiculous, and I think it's this overhype that means prog metal gets the short end of the stick rather than the music itself which I'm indifferent to rather than outright loathing. |
Posted By: ResidentAlien
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 15:52
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I try and find good in as many genres as I can and for that reason I find it particularly ridiculous that Prog-Metal is so detested around here. It's still progressive music; perhaps heavier, perhaps more aggressive, but what I thought united us as music fans was our love for music that doesn't confine itself to something easily digestible and marketable. If that's the case, why look down on Prog Metal? A lot of it (if you look past Dream Theater) is doing something original and is progressing music. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 16:38
Well ... how about "if you don't like metal, you won't like the typical prog metal"? I like metal and this may make it impossible for me to understand how somebody who doesn't like metal perceives prog metal. But I imagine that without liking the things that define metal, you could not like bands like Pain of Salvation, Dream Theater, Opeth, Tool ... not even Maudlin of the Well, who are very different from the "prog metal blueprint" (aka Dream Theater). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 16:58
I don't like normal metal, but I like prog metal for the most part. I think it's the increased complexity and musical skill found in prog metal compared to normal metal. I'm a musician myself, and I really don't care to listen to bands mediocre skills and or boring compositions. I mean, I don't like normal rock at all, but I like prog. I just like to hear good musicians playing complex pieces of music, and I just don't find that in most normal rock and metal. For me, it has nothing to do with the heavy metal "sound", but rather what I feel to be lack of development of that sound in normal metal. I think prog metal brings the metal sound to its full potential, which is why I like it. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 17:04
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For my part, I like Metal in general but felt there wasn't always "enough to it". Luckily I dicovered Dream Theater and it was just what the doctor ordered!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 18:37
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It isn't easy for a 70's prog fan to like prog metal. The change is pretty drastic. That's why they need to get "Mundus Incompertus" by Par Lindh Project. ------------- 
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Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 18:52
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I don´t have a "problem" with Prog Metal.
The only "problem" I have, are the Prog Elitists. If you don´t like it don´t listen to it.
Why waste time trying to detect hints of AOR etc in a genre you don´t like?
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Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 21:05
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I personally can't stand most metal, especially when it gets very heavy or into death metal (especially Lamb of God, I detest them). But I enjoy listening to some progressive metal bands, like Dream Theater, Riverside, and Tool. I'm actually trying to move a little bit more in the direction of more progressive metal, but I don't think I could go too far into the genre. A lot of metal still disagrees with me. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 21:15
No please, there's no relation, Par Lindh Project blends Baroque, Classical with Gothic (The real one from late Mediaeval, not that abomination from the 1800's), absolutely no connection with Metal.
Some Viking Metal bands use the formula of Par Lindh to start their tracks but are two different species.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 21:23
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i must say im surprised theres been intelligent debate about the subject, kudos to all for showing good etiquette, or what not for me personally most of the bands I enjoy are rarely the front runners of the genre (i dont care for Genesis, I dont care for DT) personally i think the best bridge to prog metal for the older members is heavier King Crimson and some VDGG ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 21:26
| ^^ I don't know about VdGG, but definetly King Crimson. I am actually considering buying some more prog metal. What should I get? |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 21:28
I always thought it was KC that pioneered prog-metal (particularly on Larks' Tongues)... I've also recently been on a Carmen phase myself, and they sound very metal in some segments of their music. ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 21:38
The only relation I hear with prog metal is the drummer and that's why I said it. His drumming reminds me a lot to prog metal bands I know because of his fast and agressive style and he blends it perfectly with the overall PLP sound without sounding out of place. Hence my recommendation (not really a serious one by the way). -------------
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Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 21:42
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I want to offer one thing to think about.
If I were to introduce anyone I know to a "prog metal" band, the chances are they would refer to it as "metal". They won't say anything like "this is unlike anything else I have ever heard and I can't classify it", like everyone did when Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Genesis, etc, first came out. So to refer to certain kinds of metal groups as "prog metal" gets some of us wondering, why not just call it metal? The older I get, the less I think Dream Theater is prog, even though I like them no less for it. On the other hand, a group like Kayo Dot is MUCH closer to being unclassifiable, and therefore a tag such as "Art Rock" or "Prog Metal" does make sense. To take as many -slightly- out of the ordinary metal groups and attempt to relate them to prog with a tag (prog-metal) seems a tad bit ridiculous. Something like this can, and is, throwing a lot of people off prog-metal. Even myself. I don't like prog-metal, but I do like the stand-out groups, such as Kayo Dot. Even Dream Theater, whether it's metal/prog or not. |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 21:56
Well I don't think there's the "prog" in prog metal because the genre sounds like genre-defining prog, but because it shares the same traits as a lot of prog. I don't think that makes it less prog, because prog bands rarely have similar sounds, they just share similar traits, the ones listed on this site. Prog metal is no exception. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 23 2006 at 22:05
I like the points you make. Very good ones. |
Posted By: trauma0
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 00:37
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prog metal rlz!!! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/trauma0/?chartstyle=itunesrecent"> 
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Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 01:30
The metal groups that don't sound the same as the rest are the ones that I enjoy most of all. This is why I threw out the name Kayo Dot. Nobody sounds like that! The problem is, Kayo Dot is an extreme minority. It's for groups like these that the term "prog-metal" should have been invented. Basically, there's too much metal-trash, and all the good metal is being covered up because of this. Too much focus is put on the prog-metal clones. Originality is left behind. Since this is the case, why wouldn't people be angry at prog-metal? What they've heard probably does suck. The prog-metal groups are, overall, A LOT more incestuous with their techniques than those in Art Rock have EVER been. Art Rock's where it's at for me, it's so easy to enjoy such diversity, and originality. It's like I'm finding a whole new world each time, and I'm not stuck on the same style of music. Nor would I be if I listened to Kayo Dot, then Dream Theater..... yet they are both "prog-metal"? There's a win-win situation for me. |
Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 01:43
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^^^^ Just to back up my point, as I'm typing this, the last group to be added to this site is named "MADDER MORTEM". I decided, in hopes of finding a tolerable group perhaps, to listen to a sample on their myspace page (http://www.myspace.com/metalireland).
It's easier to laugh at "MADDER MORTEM" then to look for positive qualities in such a group that has so little relation to prog-rock, especially when i'm on a prog-rock site looking for prog-rock related groups. This is the impression so many prog-metal groups give to random people on this site, and that is unfortunate. Why not call "MADDER MORTEM" metal as opposed to prog-metal? This is, at least, how most people will see it whether it's correct or not, and with that, you got Kool Aid's point in a nutshell. |
Posted By: smithers
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 03:26
| Metal sucks usually. It's just anger music for kids going through pubety |
Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 03:32
Thanks for that brilliant insight. |
Posted By: smithers
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 03:44
No problem. Prog metal is poo poo
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 04:32
As opposed to adults going through that traumatic stage in their lives when they start realising they finally have to learn to spell in their native language. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 04:34
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Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 05:21
| I actually make that face when something funny in this forum happens. |
Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 05:27
| On a note more related to the discussion, I fully agree that most of the really forward thinking and creative prog-metal bands are being covered up by the hordes of Dream Theater/Symphony X clones... I've felt this way for ages, and this is exactly why I devote my time on PA to trying to expose these bands. If people could see the truly great music that rests under this category I think it would be viewed as less of a stigma by people here. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 05:33
...plus great progressive metal bands that aren't even considered prog metal, like the F***ing Champs. |
Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 05:40
...who aren't really prog at all. If technicality and occasional use of interesting time signatures = prog, there are TONS of metal bands who we'd get laughed at for including that logically would have to be here. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 05:57
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They may not be 'prog' but they are progressive and they are rock. Plus, they continually - not occasionally - use odd signatures, and members who appreciate complex instrumental rock may miss out because the band is not here. In fact, they are progressive metal in the truest, most genuine sense.
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Posted By: Everlasting
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 08:02
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I've learned that people claiming that metal is only about stupid
riffing, purposeless violence, sounding all the same.... obviously
don't know a thing about metal. The richness of the metal genre and his
large panel of accessibility cannot be denied. And many groups provide
a huge work on their composition, passion, skills, open-mind,
originality... etc etc. So please put an end with stereotypes. Secondly, I'm afraid some prog-purists approach prog-metal while wanting to hear prog-rock and woooow, scandalous, prog-metal reveals himself not to be classic prog-rock. Do those people really like progressive music? A few people here basically want to tell us prog-metal isn't prog. Dishonesty? Or something like "prog=good, I don't like Dream Theater so it cannot be prog". Face it if you can't enter metal. Personnally I cannot enter blues, but that's my problem, not the blues one - let's don't be pretentious. One can separate the words rock and prog in prog-rock if we talk about the concept, we cannot do it if we talk about the music of Yes. Same with Pain of Salvation, Riverside, In the Woods..., Tool, Ayreon etc. It is an homogenous mixture, you couldn't say "PoS is ruined by the distorsion" or "Opeth is ruined by the growls" - doesn't have a sense. Metal can be prog. Prog-metal can be good. This worth isn't due to some elements stolen from classic prog-rock but belongs to the prog-metal as an indivisible thing. If it then includes black metal, so be it. Prog alone doesn't mean anything. It's an adjective, it must define a noun. There is no thing as "prog in his natural state". ------------- Ad Astra |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 09:33
That's exactly what I was trying to get at! The symphonic rock called pure prog is just the musical traits of prog applied to rock music, and prog metal are those same musical traits, only applied to metal. This said, that means prog rock is no more valid than prog metal, it just came first. Prog is like a little virus that doesn't make music itself, but that infects all different kinds of music. For "classic" prog and prog metal, it's the same virus, only different hosts.. Hope that made sense. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 09:38
Makes perfect sense. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 09:49
Well, Rhapsody would be an obvious example of an objectively cheesy band. I mean, even for most people who like Tolkien (and I do!) they are increeeeeeeeedibly cheesy. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 09:52
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I play Dungeons and Dragons occaisonally and I love Tolkein. But bands like Dragonforce and Nightwish make me sick with their cheesiness. I can't stand it! -------------
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 09:52
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I like some metal, but not all of it. For me it has the same problem as many genres. There are a few good groups, but far more posers. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 09:53
| I like cheese!! ANy kind of cheese : cheddar, gouda, brie, you name it I eat it. Oh especially goat and sheep cheese. But, yeah, there are some definetly cheesy bands. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 10:12
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^ I made a similar remark a few months ago. Of course cheesiness is not negative per se ... having said that: of course there also is bad cheese.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 10:27
This is a good point, I couldn't stand Prog Metal until I listened bands like Pain of Salvation, but this is not our fault as non Prog Metal experts, it's the fans we have to blame.
Things reached an extreme such as saying that Dream Theater is not only Prog Metal, but the best band in the world and the most inventive creation since bread.
Fans of Dream Theater took Prog Metal as their property and honestly I can't stand Drean Theater as many people here, so it's natural toi identify Prog Metal with DT and believe that's all they have to offer.
If this wasn't enough we were bombed with hundreed of posts about the band, the members, Portnoy's mother and LaBrie's cat, there were 100 five stars reviews about Octavarium weeks before it was released and this morons were reviewing old LaBrie's recordings, it was a nightmare!!!!
Every action cause an equally strong but opposite reaction, people got ired of DT and if DT = Prog Metal according to the band fans, I understand why people doesn't want to listen more PM.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 10:31
Agree Mike, I love No Earthly Connection by Rick Wakeman and it's probably the most cheesy New Age concept (The search of man for his musical soul) despite the music has no relation with New Age and reven worst lyrics (Foolish man with days to live, it's too late to find your music soul
 ), but the music is great.Iván -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 13:40
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I don't even know what cheesy is. People tell me Neo-Prog is cheesy, but all I hear is good music. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 13:58
Some examples of cheesy in different degrees
 1.- Meatloaf.- Objects In The Rear View Mirror May Appear Closer Than They Are
But it was long ago and it was far away, oh God it seems so very far
And if life is just a highway, then the soul is just a car And objects in the rear view mirror may appear closer than they are And objects in the rear view mirror may appear closer than they are CHEESY
2.- Yes.- Circus of Heven
On the dreamy ground we walked upon
I turned to my son and said 'Was that something beautiful, amazing, wonderful, extraordinary beautiful?' 'Oh! It was OK!! But there were no clowns, no tigers, lions or bears, cand-floss, toffee apples, no clowns.' Cheesier.
And the winner is:
 THE CHEESIEST!!!!!!!
Iván
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Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: December 24 2006 at 13:59
| ^ That pretty much covers it. |