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Topic ClosedWhy is Vangelis only considered Prog-Related?

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AmericanProgster View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why is Vangelis only considered Prog-Related?
    Posted: June 06 2009 at 17:48
Well I guess the subject of this thread says it all. I'm sure the reason is stupidly obvious, but I'd like to know the exact reasoning.

Thanks!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 18:04
Hi there.

Vangelis was actually in progressive electronic a while ago, but was moved (together with Jarre) upon the developement of genre, based on his commercial output (and general style) by the genre's main specialist.

While Vangelis's music is arguably not so onesided just on the commercial, new-age and all that - even myself think the early stuff, up to the electronic rock in Albedo or Spiral could be highlighted under prog credentials - the links to the core of what defines the genres are a tad loose, and, besides, it's been a change done a long time ago, with a certain permanent character.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 18:41
Ah, that's a shame. Just got the Spiral album today...on Cassette! So hopefully I will be in for a surprise when I listen to it.

Thank you!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 20:26
Prog-related has always seemed to me a kind of catch-all category for music that doesn't quite fit into any of the others.  I have long considered Vangelis to be the epitome of Symphonic Prog since so much of his music is essentially symphonic in character.  He just uses electronics to create his soundscapes.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:37
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Hi there.

Vangelis was actually in progressive electronic a while ago, but was moved (together with Jarre) upon the developement of genre, based on his commercial output (and general style) by the genre's main specialist.

While Vangelis's music is arguably not so onesided just on the commercial, new-age and all that - even myself think the early stuff, up to the electronic rock in Albedo or Spiral could be highlighted under prog credentials - the links to the core of what defines the genres are a tad loose, and, besides, it's been a change done a long time ago, with a certain permanent character.


I still think that is a pretty weak argument. Many artists were added to genres that are supposedly 100% prog and they have only 1 album that can be called prog, specially in the progressive metal and symphonic prog. And yet a major figure in progressive rock such as Vangelis is not prog enough. Besides, Vangelis have other albums that are truly progressive, like Heaven and Hell.

In my honest opinion, this is just a political thing, since it is undoubted that Vangelis was prog one day, like Genesis and countless other prog bands, like Banco and post-Passpartù-pre-Dracula PFM, and yet those bands don't have their "proggyness" questioned at any time.

I respect your opinion Vic, but i really can't see why Vangelis is not listed as prog aside from a mere internal decision among the specialists.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 00:50

When compared with Mike Oldfield, Vangelis is worse. But when thinking only about what he has done, he deserves a place here. Look, The Beatles wouldn't describe themselves as proto-prog (or prog-related, whatever is there), but as pop-rock. Yet they were very influental and also a little bit prog, so they have place here.

Do you think that Vangelis would call himself prog artist ? Maybe, who knows. But as long as the artist is listed here, I'm satisfied, under whatever genre he is there.

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 00:58
Originally posted by MartyMcFly89 MartyMcFly89 wrote:

When compared with Mike Oldfield, Vangelis is worse. But when thinking only about what he has done, he deserves a place here.
 
At least he didn't record Albedo 0.39 1999, 2003, 2008, etc. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 03:22
He has spiral, I like this one. And my favourite Blade Runner soundtrack. Or should I say: "Do androids dream electronic sheeps?" as fan of Philip K. Dick.
There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 03:36
Vangelis is the master of symphonic electronic music; a style variation that has a hard time being accepted as progressive.

Personally I'd like to have him listed as purebred prog despite his later releases that touch more and more upon elevator music in style, but it seems that I belong to a very minor minority in that view ;-)
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 04:07
It doesn't make any sense: Vangelis was Progressive!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 04:38
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

It doesn't make any sense: Vangelis was Progressive!



Can't say anymore than I already said there.

I was just a fan (aka a senior member) when Jarre and Vangelis were moved, and I actually made more fuss about Jarre being moved, until I was corrected that French progressive electronic didn't have its initiatior in Jarre by a long mile.

As for Vangelis, I don't like the "one prog album eclipses everything else" system (generally speaking), but I do believe there's Hypothesis, then the symphonic and electronic rock in Albedo and Spiral, and we can include even the experimental (despite unpopular) Beaubourg chemistry. China and the 70s soundtracks are already a good source of bicker.

Admittedly though, I find Vangelis' "Greek school" of electronic music without many pupils, causing a bit of a rupture in the whole genre, even if Vangelis' own progressive music (in some albums, already mentioned) can be supported.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 06:40
The most important thing is Vangelis is here regardless of which genre tagging we apply. From the awesome Heaven and Hell, the splendid Spiral, the emphatically progressive China to the aural portrait masterpiece of El Greco, we are all the richer for itSmile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 07:35
You know I might just be able to agree with that if it wasn't for one issue (with me anyway). The way prog-related is treated here you would think its meant as an insult. I mean some people see as a way for non prog bands to get on PA. Even this website doesn't treat it as prog! Look at the new rating system...excellent addition to any rock music collection...are you kidding me?!?! I think the Ghost Busters soundtrack is an excellent addition to any rock music collection, but that has nothing to do with prog and that's how it seems PA treats Prog-related and proto-prog.

For me its simple...if its genre has the word prog rock in it anywhere, then its PROG!! Regardless if its less prog than lets say eclectic prog, ITS STILL PROG AND SHOULD BE TREATED WITH THE SAME RESPECT!

Thanks for hearing my rant!LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 07:54
Originally posted by AmericanProgster AmericanProgster wrote:

You know I might just be able to agree with that if it wasn't for one issue (with me anyway). The way prog-related is treated here you would think its meant as an insult. I mean some people see as a way for non prog bands to get on PA. Even this website doesn't treat it as prog! Look at the new rating system...excellent addition to any rock music collection...are you kidding me?!?! I think the Ghost Busters soundtrack is an excellent addition to any rock music collection, but that has nothing to do with prog and that's how it seems PA treats Prog-related and proto-prog.

For me its simple...if its genre has the word prog rock in it anywhere, then its PROG!! Regardless if its less prog than lets say eclectic prog, ITS STILL PROG AND SHOULD BE TREATED WITH THE SAME RESPECT!

Thanks for hearing my rant!LOL


I'm afraid people don't see the issue in the same way. Those who have added bands to prog-related have often found themselves in the middle of controversy, sometimes with very unpleasant undertones (i.e. outright personal attacks). There are members who believe Prog-Related should be scrapped altogether, and the new rating system has been brought about by the habit some reviewers had of giving a lower rating to any PR or Proto-Prog album (something I have always refused to do).

Needless to say, I have never been in favour of creating a 'ghetto' for PP and PR, but mine is only one voice amongst many. However, I have to disagree with your final statement - as much as I love, for instance, Iron Maiden or Blue Oyster Cult, I don't think they are as prog as Yes or GenesisWink. I do, though, share your sentiments about respect - not only towards bands, but towards people.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 08:01
Well, the good news is that I'm finally listening to his Spiral album and holy crap, its amazing!

Hey if anyone has any suggestions for other albums by Vangelis that I need to hear, please list them. I'm eager to hear more now!


Edited by AmericanProgster - June 07 2009 at 08:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 10:48
I really like his first album called Earth, it still has some of the Aphrodites Child sound. If you enjoyed Spiral you should listen Heaven and Hell.

Another great album is Mask and i really like the two albums he made with greek actress/singer Irene Papas (Odes and Rapsodies).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 16:12
Originally posted by AmericanProgster AmericanProgster wrote:

Well, the good news is that I'm finally listening to his Spiral album and holy crap, its amazing!

Hey if anyone has any suggestions for other albums by Vangelis that I need to hear, please list them. I'm eager to hear more now!
 
You need to hear the ones right before and right after, Heaven And Hell and Spiral. The three form a sort of unofficial 'trilogy.'
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2009 at 03:08
^ L'Apocalypse
El Greco
The City
Direct
Oceanic
China
Voices
 
and i have probably missed another 5 or 6 great works
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2009 at 11:14
Hi,
 
Vangelis, is, one of the greatest composers of our time ... and to boot, as if he needed it, he also has an Oscar in his closet ... and that is not even for the soundtrack of his that is the best ... it is a good one because the film maker knew how to use his music ... and very well!
 
Vangelis should be considered "prog", however the cynicism involved in the definition of the word, including types and styles of music involved, preclude him, Mike Oldfield, Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream from ever being considered and being given the credit they deserve for their music ... but in many ways, and the Top 100 is a perfect example, when folks have not heard enough of the music around and all over the world, they will instead select a 2nd and 3rd album by Genesis or ELP ... and promptly leave behind artists andf people whose contribution to the world of music is way greater than they are given credit for.
 
One other thing, that is not even discussed ... these folks were at the forefront of the birth and development of what we know as "synthesizer" and to help define it as an instrument ... rather than some fun stuff a la Wendy/Walter Carlos. And this is another avenue that the "prog" list and "fatherhood" is not willing to discuss ... progress is a great thing ... except it can not happen in any other music discipline ... so, even The Chieftains, who play a lot of tradional music, but do so quite progressively in a modern way that makes a lot of prog bands look and sound like children beating on their sticks ...will not get any credit ...
 
It's ok ... Mike has his Oscar, Vangelis has his Oscar ... and most of these "prog names will fade by wayside.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2009 at 11:41
The Dragon and Hypothesis are good.
 
 




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