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Tuzvihar ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 18 2005 Location: C. Schinesghe Status: Offline Points: 13536 |
![]() Posted: February 23 2007 at 14:42 |
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I just think you should read this powerful essay by professor Benny Morris:
This Holocaust will be different The second holocaust will not be like the first. The Nazis, of course, industrialized mass murder. But still, the perpetrators had one-on-one contact with the victims. They may have dehumanized them over months and years of appalling debasement and in their minds, before the actual killing. But, still, they were in eye and ear contact, sometimes in tactile contact, with their victims. The Germans, along with their non-German helpers, had to round up the men, women and children from their houses and drag and beat them through the streets and mow them down in nearby woods or push and pack them into cattle cars and transport them to the camps, where "Work makes free," separate the able-bodied from the completely useless and lure them into "shower" halls and pour in the gas and then take out, or oversee the extraction of, the bodies and prepare the "showers" for the next batch. The second holocaust will be quite different. One bright morning, in five or 10 years, perhaps during a regional crisis, perhaps out of the blue, a day or a year or five years after Iran's acquisition of the Bomb, the mullahs in Qom will convene in secret session, under a portrait of the steely-eyed Ayatollah Khomeini, and give President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, by then in his second or third term, the go-ahead. The orders will go out and the Shihab III and IV missiles will take off for Tel Aviv, Beersheba, Haifa and Jerusalem, and probably some military sites, including Israel's half dozen air and (reported) nuclear missile bases. Some of the Shihabs will be nuclear-tipped, perhaps even with multiple warheads. Others will be dupes, packed merely with biological or chemical agents, or old newspapers, to draw off or confuse Israel's anti-missile batteries and Home Front Command units. With a country the size and shape of Israel (an elongated 20,000 square kilometers), probably four or five hits will suffice: No more Israel. A million or more Israelis in the greater Tel Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem areas will die immediately. Millions will be seriously irradiated. Israel has about seven million inhabitants. No Iranian will see or touch an Israeli. It will be quite impersonal. Some of the dead will inevitably be Arab - 1.3 million of Israel's citizens are Arab and another 3.5 million Arabs live in the semi-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. Jerusalem, Tel Aviv-Jaffa and Haifa have substantial Arab minorities. And there are large Arab concentrations immediately around Jerusalem (in Ramallah-Al Bireh, Bir Zeit, Bethlehem) and outside Haifa. Here, too, many will die, immediately or by and by. It is doubtful whether such a mass killing of fellow Muslims will trouble Ahmadinejad and the mullahs. The Iranians don't especially like Arabs, especially Sunni Arabs, with whom they have intermittently warred for centuries. And they have a special contempt for the (Sunni) Palestinians who, after all, though initially outnumbering the Jews by more than 10 to 1, failed during the long conflict to prevent them from establishing their state or taking over all of Palestine. Besides, the Iranian leadership sees the destruction of Israel as a supreme divine command, as a herald of the second coming, and the Muslims dispatched collaterally as so many martyrs in the noble cause. Anyway, the Palestinians, many of them dispersed around the globe, will survive as a people, as will the greater Arab nation of which they are part. And surely, to be rid of the Jewish state, the Arabs should be willing to make some sacrifices. In the cosmic balance sheet, it will be worth the candle. A QUESTION may nevertheless arise in the Iranian
councils: What about Jerusalem? After all, the city contains Islam's
third holiest shrines (after Mecca and Medina), Al Aksa Mosque and the
Mosque of Omar. But Ali Khamenei, the supreme spiritual leader, and
Ahmadinejad most likely would reply much as they would to the wider
question regarding the destruction and radioactive pollution of
Palestine as a whole: The city, like the land, by God's grace, in 20 or
50 years' time, will recover. And it will be restored to Islam (and the
Arabs). And the deeper pollution will have been eradicated.
To judge from Ahmadinejad's continuous reference to Palestine
and the need to destroy Israel, and his denial of the first Holocaust,
he is a man obsessed. He shares this with the mullahs: All were brought
up on the teachings of Khomeini, a prolific anti-Semite who often
fulminated against "the Little Satan." To judge from Ahmadinejad's
organization of the Holocaust cartoon competition and the Holocaust
denial conference, the Iranian president's hatreds are deep (and, of
course, shameless).
He is willing to gamble the future of Iran or even of the whole
Muslim Middle East in exchange for Israel's destruction. No doubt he
believes that Allah, somehow, will protect Iran from an Israeli nuclear
response or an American counterstrike. Allah aside, he may well believe
that his missiles will so pulverize the Jewish state, knock out its
leadership and its land-based nuclear bases, and demoralize or confuse
its nuclear-armed submarine commanders that it will be unable to
respond. And, with his deep contempt for the weak-kneed West, he is
unlikely to take seriously the threat of American nuclear retaliation.
Or he may well take into account a counterstrike and simply,
irrationally (to our way of thinking), be willing to pay the price. As
his mentor, Khomeini, put it in a speech in Qom in 1980: "We do not
worship Iran, we worship Allah... I say, let this land [Iran] burn. I
say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant..."
For these worshipers at the cult of death, even the sacrifice
of the homeland is acceptable if the outcome is the demise of Israel.
DEPUTY DEFENSE Minister Ephraim Sneh has suggested that Iran
doesn't even have to use the Bomb to destroy Israel. Simply, the
nuclearization of Iran will so overawe and depress Israelis that they
will lose hope and gradually emigrate, and potential foreign investors
and immigrants will shy away from the mortally threatened Jewish state.
These, together, will bring about its demise.
But my feeling is that Ahmadinejad and his allies lack the
patience for such a drawn-out denouement; they seek Israel's
annihilation in the here and now, in the immediate future, in their
lifetime. They won't want to leave anything up to the vagaries of
history.
As with the first, the second holocaust will have been preceded
by decades of preparation of hearts and minds, by Iranian and Arab
leaders, Western intellectuals and media outlets. Different messages
have gone out to different audiences, but all have (objectively) served
the same goal, the demonization of Israel. Muslims the world over have
been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel
must be destroyed."
And Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a
racist oppressor state" and "Israel, in this age of multiculturalism,
is an anachronism and superfluous." Generations of Muslims and at least
a generation of Westerners have been brought up on these catechisms. THE BUILD-UP to the second holocaust (which,
incidentally, in the end, will probably claim roughly the same number
of lives as the first) has seen an international community fragmented
and driven by separate, selfish appetites - Russia and China obsessed
with Muslim markets; France with Arab oil - and the United States
driven by the debacle in Iraq into a deep isolationism. Iran has been
left free to pursue its nuclear destiny and Israel and Iran to face off
alone.
But an ultimately isolated Israel will prove unequal to the
task, like a rabbit caught in the headlights of an onrushing car. Last
summer, led by a party hack of a prime minister and a small-time trade
unionist as defense minister, and deploying an army trained for
quelling incompetent and poorly armed Palestinian gangs in the occupied
territories and overly concerned about both sustaining and inflicting
casualties, Israel failed in a 34-day mini-war against a small
Iran-backed guerrilla army of Lebanese fundamentalists (albeit highly
motivated, well-trained and well-armed). That mini-war thoroughly
demoralized the Israeli political and military leaderships.
Since then, the ministers and generals, like their counterparts
in the West, have looked on glumly as Hizbullah's patrons have been
arming with doomsday weapons. Perversely, the Israeli leaders may even
have been happy with Western pressures urging restraint. Most likely
they deeply wished to believe Western assurances that somebody, somehow
- the UN, G-8 - would pull the radioactive chestnuts out of the fire.
There are even those who fell for the outlandish idea that a regime
change in Teheran, driven by a reputedly secular middle class, would
ultimately stymie the mad mullahs.
But even more to the point, the Iranian program presented an
infinitely complex challenge for a country with limited conventional
military resources. Taking their cue from the successful IAF
destruction of Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, the Iranians
duplicated and dispersed their facilities and buried them deep
underground (and the Iranian targets are about twice as far from Israel
as was Baghdad). Taking out the known Iranian facilities with
conventional weapons would take an American-size air force working
round-the-clock for more than a month.
At best, Israel's air force, commandos and navy could hope to
hit only some of the components of the Iranian project. But, in the
end, it would remain substantially intact - and the Iranians even more
determined (if that were possible) to attain the Bomb as soon as
possible. It would also, without doubt, immediately result in a
world-embracing Islamist terrorist campaign against Israel (and
possibly its Western allies) and, of course, near-universal
vilification. Orchestrated by Ahmadinejad, all would clamor that the
Iranian program had been geared to peaceful purposes. At best, an
Israeli conventional strike could delay the Iranians by a year or two.
IN SHORT order, therefore, the incompetent leadership in
Jerusalem would soon confront a doomsday scenario, either after
launching their marginally effective conventional offensive or in its
stead, of launching a preemptive nuclear strike against the Iranian
nuclear program, some of whose components are in or near major cities.
Would they have the stomach for this? Would their determination to save
Israel extend to preemptively killing millions of Iranians and, in
effect, destroying Iran?
This dilemma had long ago been accurately defined by a wise
general: Israel's nuclear armory is unusable. It can only be used too
early or too late. There will never be a "right" time. Use it "too
early," meaning before Iran acquires similar weapons, and Israel will
be cast in the role of international pariah, a target of universal
Muslim assault, without a friend in the world; "too late" means after
the Iranians have struck. What purpose would that serve? So Israel's leaders will grit their teeth and
hope that somehow things will turn out for the best. Perhaps, after
acquiring the Bomb, the Iranians will behave "rationally"?
BUT THE Iranians are driven by a higher logic. And they will
launch their rockets. And, as with the first Holocaust, the
international community will do nothing. It will all be over, for
Israel, in a few minutes - not like in the 1940s, when the world had
five long years in which to wring its hands and do nothing. After the
Shihabs fall, the world will send rescue ships and medical aid for the
lightly charred. It will not nuke Iran. For what purpose and at what
cost? An American nuclear response would lastingly alienate the whole
Muslim world, deepening and universalizing the ongoing clash of
civilizations. And, of course, it would not bring Israel back. (Would
hanging a serial murderer bring back his victims?)
So what would be the point?
Still, the second holocaust will be different in the sense that
Ahmadinejad will not actually see and touch those he so wishes dead
(and, one may speculate, this might cause him disappointment as, in his
years of service in Iranian death squads in Europe, he may have
acquired a taste for actual blood). And, indeed, there will be no
scenes like the following, quoted in Daniel Mendelsohn's recent The Lost, A Search for Six of Six Million, in which is described the second Nazi action in Bolechow, Poland, in September 1942:
A terrible episode happened with Mrs. Grynberg. The Ukrainians
and Germans, who had broken into her house, found her giving birth. The
weeping and entreaties of bystanders didn't help and she was taken from
her home in a nightshirt and dragged into the square in front of the
town hall. In the next holocaust there will be no such heart-rending
scenes, of perpetrators and victims mired in blood (though, to judge
from pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the physical effects of
nuclear explosions can be fairly unpleasant).
But it will be a holocaust nonetheless.
The writer is a professor of Middle Eastern history at Ben-Gurion University. What do you think? Is he right? |
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"Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent."
Charles Bukowski |
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progismylife ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 19 2006 Location: ibreathehelium Status: Offline Points: 15535 |
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I hope he's not right.
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darkmatter ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: November 23 2006 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 2760 |
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This is a frightening scenario, to put it lightly. Hopefully nothing
stated in this article will ever become reality. At least it is only
fiction.
But some assertions made in this article really disturb me, and quiet frankly, they anger me too. This part bothers me the most: Muslims the world over have been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel must be destroyed." And Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a racist oppressor state" and "Israel, in this age of multiculturalism, is an anachronism and superfluous." Generations of Muslims and at least a generation of Westerners have been brought up on these catechisms. I find the first statement to be very irritating. This professor lumps all Muslims with the extremist Muslims, and you cannot do that. This is a terrible misconception. Only the Muslim extremists, like those who bombed the World Trade Center on 9/11, have these kinds of beliefs, and they are a very, very small minority. It is very insulting to Islam to say that all or most Muslims are brought up to hate Jews and Israel.I find the second part of the quote to be downright offensive on a personal level. I am a Catholic, and I was NOT brought up being taught that "Israel is a racist oppressor state", subtly or not. I believe that Israel is a great country, with a very important history to three religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I mean without Judaism, Christianity and Islam would not exist! How can I possibly believe that Jews are an evil people in any way? Sorry if I sound preachy, I don't mean to, but I think that this professor has some serious misconceptions about Westerner's and Muslim's feelings toward Jews and Israel. |
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stonebeard ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
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He didn't talk about how a lot of the Muslim world is against Iran.
These people are dangerous. All fanatics are dangerous. |
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markosherrera ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 01 2006 Location: World Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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I DONT BELIEVE THAT COULD HAPPEN THAT PROPHECYS OF DISASTERS
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tuxon ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
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Of course he's right, and it will happen, regardless of UN resolutions or whatever. but I will live and prosper, so who cares really. |
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Jeams Pfirp ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 03 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 163 |
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That's a long essay.
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Blacksword ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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That is scaremongering Zionist propoganda. I'm sorry, dont wish to offend, but does anybody hand on heart believe that either Israel or the US will allow this scenario to unfold?
Since reluctantly sponsoring the Jewish state after the British had helped to establish it, the US has invested incalcuable sums of money and political capital, in arming Israel and propping up its economy. The US will not allow over half a centuries investment go up in nuclear smoke. The Jewish community in the US may be small, but it is industrious and has been a blessing both economically and culturally to the US. America will defend Israel to the last man. Israel is surrounded by nations who want its demise, sure, but it is Israel who has up 400 nuclear warheads pointing at cities throughout the Arab/Muslim world. It is Isreal who has been rehearsing air strikes on Iran since 2004. It can not have escaped the attention of anyone that the US has been amassing its forces in the Gulf of Oman, ready to strike Iran at a moments notice. It can not have escaped anyones attention that Iran has stuck its fngers up - once again - at the UN over its nuclear program. Folks, it wont happen. Iran will not develop a bomb!! They will not be given the chance. Iran could be flattened in under six minutes. FACT! Lets forget the war scenario for moment and look at the other side of Iran. The Iranian leadership faces unprecedented opposition. The views of their insane leader are not shared by the majority of the population, and for all it's failings Iran is a democracy and 'regime change' via peaceful routes is a real possibility and threat to the leadership. The biggest threat to Israel and the west in general comes from our good friends in Russia. Forget the Muslim world with its suicide bombers, and look at the two nations who are never on the same page as the west: Russia and China. When the skirmish comes for the last drop of Middle Eastern oil, the Iranians will be the least of our worries. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Angelo ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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^^ Blacksword: I doubt that Israel and the US will be able to prevent scenarios like this - they're only human after all.
However, the fact that this essay comes directly from Ben Gurion University does make it a possible piece of propaganda. Not that different from what the Arabs write about Israel and the Jews - you're quite right pointing that out. As for Iran and the Arab world: the fact that Iran has, amongst others, a female national racing champion, doesn't make them very popular with their neighbours... |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Blacksword ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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Israel and the US will be able to prevent this scenario, if they DONT take the same approach as they have with North Korea. We waited until North Korea were testing bombs. That was classic stupidity on our part. Iran is likely to be 10 years off having a bomb - according to the IAEA. We have ample time for both diplomacy and hard line action. Israel has already stated that Iran would not be allowed to make a bomb, at whatever cost. I cant imagine Israel going cap in hand to the UN asking for resolutions. Israel will act in the name of self preservation. Iran is about to be dealt with. It will happen this year, and will have been in the planning for some time now. Iran has baited the west with its defiance and will pay for this. If we're lucky we'll just see global recession when this happens.. The Israeli propoganda machine is just a powerful as the radical Islamic machine. Both play up their 'victim' status. What makes Israel dangerous is the fact that it has an illegal nuclear arsenal of undisclosed size, and what makes their counterparts dangerous is their belief in the return of the 12Imam to fight the great Satan... Oh dear..what a mess.. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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laplace ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: October 06 2005 Location: popupControl(); Status: Offline Points: 7606 |
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heh. religion creates deserts one way or another. ;)
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Angelo ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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^^ You should know, laplace, given you're located in the Neutral Zone
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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BaldFriede ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
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Sadly at the moment Israel has to be called a country in which governmental racism is being executed. The way Palestinians are currently being treated allows no other term for it. And this is NOT anti-Semitism; I am anything but an anti-Semite. I critisize the Israelian politics and don't say anything against Jews in general. But it seems there are currently a lot of anti-Palestinians in the Israeli government.
It is understandable that Israel is afraid of terrorist acts. But that does not justify having two kinds of laws, one for Jews and one for Palestinians, as it is currently de facto the state there. Just today I listened to a radio feature about this issue (on WDR3, in my opinion the best, if not the only German radio channel for listeners who like to be informed). The way the Israelian government currently acts they are just pouring oil into the fire. |
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![]() BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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Easy Livin ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
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Careful now, we have members all over the world. Please do not make statements about countries, people, religions, groups, or individuals which may cause offence..
This thread is being carefully monitored and will be closed without further comment if it turns sour.
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Blacksword ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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The essay in the opening post is emotive as it makes references to the holocaust in WWII. This is deliberate on the writers part, even though the point he is making is that the scenario he envisages actually bares no resemblence to it. There is no scientific or politically sound foundation for his speculation. It is based on paranoia and an irrational fear of Iran.
Propoganda is at work verociously on both sides. On a news forum recently someone posted a link to a clip of an Iranian 'professor' explaining how the Tom & Jerry cartoons were part of a Jewish brainwashing conspiracy. I wont go into his reasoning (unless someone wants me to); suffice to say it was the biggest crock of sh!t I had ever heard. His audience earnestly took notes and not one questioned the obvious lunacy of his claims. Of course it's always an academic, or some professor whose essays get published, or whose claims are splashed over the web. It's as if their academic credentials are supposed to lend some credibility to their blinkered political bias, and personal paranoias. Look behind ther words and you'll see that they dont. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Forgotten Son ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: March 13 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1356 |
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I really dislike Benny Morris' politics, despite his pretty good scholarship on the origins of Zionism and Israel. Firstly Iran doesn't even want to nuke Israel. Even if Ahmadinejad had said he wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, which he didn't, he lacks the political power necessary to do such a thing.
I agree with Blacksword, this is rather crude propoganda that distorts what's really going on in the Middle East, making Israel look like the perpetual victim, which it obviously isn't. Edited by Forgotten Son - February 25 2007 at 04:39 |
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65541 |
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What a heap of unhelpful, shallow, twisted, bizarre, naive, under-educated pap.
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JrKASperov ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: July 07 2004 Status: Offline Points: 904 |
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Yup, he didn't. He wanted something even worse: he wanted them gone from the face of time. Never to have existed. ![]() |
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Epic.
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Forgotten Son ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: March 13 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1356 |
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Did you read that article? He quoted Khomeini who said the Israeli regime should end, not it's people. He was quoting the advocation of a single state settlement, in other words. |
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Blacksword ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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In all fairness, there is clearly something rotten in the state of Iran. Ahmadinejad's views are fairly clear, even if what he said is attribuatble to someone else. That said I would agree that he lacks the support in Iran for any kind of offensive on Israel, and probably for another decade wont have the means in any case. Iran is a complex country which is often misrepresented in western media, especially when we are preparing our populations for another war, which we clearly are at present. Iran is one of the worlds oldest democracies. It's electoral system is far from perfect, but it should be understood that the current regime is actually very unpopular and is in constant danger of being toppled. Outside Israel and the US, Iran has one of the worlds largest Jewish populations, who are free to worship, travel and trade without restriction or persecution. There are even Jews within the Iranian political system; some are Zionist, some are not. The situation is far from black and white. The horrible irony of the current stand off over their nuclear program is that the more pressure Israel and the west put Iran under, the more consolidated the support for its leadership becomes. Our actions are bolstering the strength of the regime, and actually nurturing anti Semitism within Iran. It's our fault. I have to conclude that this is deliberate in order to bolster a case for attacking Iran. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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