The next Holocaust will be different
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Topic: The next Holocaust will be different
Posted By: Tuzvihar
Subject: The next Holocaust will be different
Date Posted: February 23 2007 at 14:42
I just think you should read this powerful essay by professor Benny Morris:
This Holocaust will be different
The second holocaust will not be like the first.
The Nazis, of course, industrialized mass murder. But still, the
perpetrators had one-on-one contact with the victims. They may have
dehumanized them over months and years of appalling debasement and in
their minds, before the actual killing. But, still, they were in eye
and ear contact, sometimes in tactile contact, with their victims.
The Germans, along with their non-German helpers, had to round
up the men, women and children from their houses and drag and beat them
through the streets and mow them down in nearby woods or push and pack
them into cattle cars and transport them to the camps, where "Work
makes free," separate the able-bodied from the completely useless and
lure them into "shower" halls and pour in the gas and then take out, or
oversee the extraction of, the bodies and prepare the "showers" for the
next batch.
The second holocaust will be quite different. One bright
morning, in five or 10 years, perhaps during a regional crisis, perhaps
out of the blue, a day or a year or five years after Iran's acquisition
of the Bomb, the mullahs in Qom will convene in secret session, under a
portrait of the steely-eyed Ayatollah Khomeini, and give President
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, by then in his second or third term, the go-ahead.
The orders will go out and the Shihab III and IV missiles will
take off for Tel Aviv, Beersheba, Haifa and Jerusalem, and probably
some military sites, including Israel's half dozen air and (reported)
nuclear missile bases. Some of the Shihabs will be nuclear-tipped,
perhaps even with multiple warheads. Others will be dupes, packed
merely with biological or chemical agents, or old newspapers, to draw
off or confuse Israel's anti-missile batteries and Home Front Command
units.
With a country the size and shape of Israel (an elongated
20,000 square kilometers), probably four or five hits will suffice: No
more Israel. A million or more Israelis in the greater Tel Aviv, Haifa
and Jerusalem areas will die immediately. Millions will be seriously
irradiated. Israel has about seven million inhabitants. No Iranian will
see or touch an Israeli. It will be quite impersonal.
Some of the dead will inevitably be Arab - 1.3 million of
Israel's citizens are Arab and another 3.5 million Arabs live in the
semi-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. Jerusalem, Tel Aviv-Jaffa and
Haifa have substantial Arab minorities. And there are large Arab
concentrations immediately around Jerusalem (in Ramallah-Al Bireh, Bir
Zeit, Bethlehem) and outside Haifa. Here, too, many will die,
immediately or by and by.
It is doubtful whether such a mass killing of fellow Muslims
will trouble Ahmadinejad and the mullahs. The Iranians don't especially
like Arabs, especially Sunni Arabs, with whom they have intermittently
warred for centuries. And they have a special contempt for the (Sunni)
Palestinians who, after all, though initially outnumbering the Jews by
more than 10 to 1, failed during the long conflict to prevent them from
establishing their state or taking over all of Palestine.
Besides, the Iranian leadership sees the destruction of Israel
as a supreme divine command, as a herald of the second coming, and the
Muslims dispatched collaterally as so many martyrs in the noble cause.
Anyway, the Palestinians, many of them dispersed around the globe, will
survive as a people, as will the greater Arab nation of which they are
part. And surely, to be rid of the Jewish state, the Arabs should be
willing to make some sacrifices. In the cosmic balance sheet, it will
be worth the candle. A QUESTION may nevertheless arise in the Iranian
councils: What about Jerusalem? After all, the city contains Islam's
third holiest shrines (after Mecca and Medina), Al Aksa Mosque and the
Mosque of Omar. But Ali Khamenei, the supreme spiritual leader, and
Ahmadinejad most likely would reply much as they would to the wider
question regarding the destruction and radioactive pollution of
Palestine as a whole: The city, like the land, by God's grace, in 20 or
50 years' time, will recover. And it will be restored to Islam (and the
Arabs). And the deeper pollution will have been eradicated.
To judge from Ahmadinejad's continuous reference to Palestine
and the need to destroy Israel, and his denial of the first Holocaust,
he is a man obsessed. He shares this with the mullahs: All were brought
up on the teachings of Khomeini, a prolific anti-Semite who often
fulminated against "the Little Satan." To judge from Ahmadinejad's
organization of the Holocaust cartoon competition and the Holocaust
denial conference, the Iranian president's hatreds are deep (and, of
course, shameless).
He is willing to gamble the future of Iran or even of the whole
Muslim Middle East in exchange for Israel's destruction. No doubt he
believes that Allah, somehow, will protect Iran from an Israeli nuclear
response or an American counterstrike. Allah aside, he may well believe
that his missiles will so pulverize the Jewish state, knock out its
leadership and its land-based nuclear bases, and demoralize or confuse
its nuclear-armed submarine commanders that it will be unable to
respond. And, with his deep contempt for the weak-kneed West, he is
unlikely to take seriously the threat of American nuclear retaliation.
Or he may well take into account a counterstrike and simply,
irrationally (to our way of thinking), be willing to pay the price. As
his mentor, Khomeini, put it in a speech in Qom in 1980: "We do not
worship Iran, we worship Allah... I say, let this land [Iran] burn. I
say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant..."
For these worshipers at the cult of death, even the sacrifice
of the homeland is acceptable if the outcome is the demise of Israel.
DEPUTY DEFENSE Minister Ephraim Sneh has suggested that Iran
doesn't even have to use the Bomb to destroy Israel. Simply, the
nuclearization of Iran will so overawe and depress Israelis that they
will lose hope and gradually emigrate, and potential foreign investors
and immigrants will shy away from the mortally threatened Jewish state.
These, together, will bring about its demise.
But my feeling is that Ahmadinejad and his allies lack the
patience for such a drawn-out denouement; they seek Israel's
annihilation in the here and now, in the immediate future, in their
lifetime. They won't want to leave anything up to the vagaries of
history.
As with the first, the second holocaust will have been preceded
by decades of preparation of hearts and minds, by Iranian and Arab
leaders, Western intellectuals and media outlets. Different messages
have gone out to different audiences, but all have (objectively) served
the same goal, the demonization of Israel. Muslims the world over have
been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel
must be destroyed."
And Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a
racist oppressor state" and "Israel, in this age of multiculturalism,
is an anachronism and superfluous." Generations of Muslims and at least
a generation of Westerners have been brought up on these catechisms. THE BUILD-UP to the second holocaust (which,
incidentally, in the end, will probably claim roughly the same number
of lives as the first) has seen an international community fragmented
and driven by separate, selfish appetites - Russia and China obsessed
with Muslim markets; France with Arab oil - and the United States
driven by the debacle in Iraq into a deep isolationism. Iran has been
left free to pursue its nuclear destiny and Israel and Iran to face off
alone.
But an ultimately isolated Israel will prove unequal to the
task, like a rabbit caught in the headlights of an onrushing car. Last
summer, led by a party hack of a prime minister and a small-time trade
unionist as defense minister, and deploying an army trained for
quelling incompetent and poorly armed Palestinian gangs in the occupied
territories and overly concerned about both sustaining and inflicting
casualties, Israel failed in a 34-day mini-war against a small
Iran-backed guerrilla army of Lebanese fundamentalists (albeit highly
motivated, well-trained and well-armed). That mini-war thoroughly
demoralized the Israeli political and military leaderships.
Since then, the ministers and generals, like their counterparts
in the West, have looked on glumly as Hizbullah's patrons have been
arming with doomsday weapons. Perversely, the Israeli leaders may even
have been happy with Western pressures urging restraint. Most likely
they deeply wished to believe Western assurances that somebody, somehow
- the UN, G-8 - would pull the radioactive chestnuts out of the fire.
There are even those who fell for the outlandish idea that a regime
change in Teheran, driven by a reputedly secular middle class, would
ultimately stymie the mad mullahs.
But even more to the point, the Iranian program presented an
infinitely complex challenge for a country with limited conventional
military resources. Taking their cue from the successful IAF
destruction of Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, the Iranians
duplicated and dispersed their facilities and buried them deep
underground (and the Iranian targets are about twice as far from Israel
as was Baghdad). Taking out the known Iranian facilities with
conventional weapons would take an American-size air force working
round-the-clock for more than a month.
At best, Israel's air force, commandos and navy could hope to
hit only some of the components of the Iranian project. But, in the
end, it would remain substantially intact - and the Iranians even more
determined (if that were possible) to attain the Bomb as soon as
possible. It would also, without doubt, immediately result in a
world-embracing Islamist terrorist campaign against Israel (and
possibly its Western allies) and, of course, near-universal
vilification. Orchestrated by Ahmadinejad, all would clamor that the
Iranian program had been geared to peaceful purposes. At best, an
Israeli conventional strike could delay the Iranians by a year or two.
IN SHORT order, therefore, the incompetent leadership in
Jerusalem would soon confront a doomsday scenario, either after
launching their marginally effective conventional offensive or in its
stead, of launching a preemptive nuclear strike against the Iranian
nuclear program, some of whose components are in or near major cities.
Would they have the stomach for this? Would their determination to save
Israel extend to preemptively killing millions of Iranians and, in
effect, destroying Iran?
This dilemma had long ago been accurately defined by a wise
general: Israel's nuclear armory is unusable. It can only be used too
early or too late. There will never be a "right" time. Use it "too
early," meaning before Iran acquires similar weapons, and Israel will
be cast in the role of international pariah, a target of universal
Muslim assault, without a friend in the world; "too late" means after
the Iranians have struck. What purpose would that serve? So Israel's leaders will grit their teeth and
hope that somehow things will turn out for the best. Perhaps, after
acquiring the Bomb, the Iranians will behave "rationally"?
BUT THE Iranians are driven by a higher logic. And they will
launch their rockets. And, as with the first Holocaust, the
international community will do nothing. It will all be over, for
Israel, in a few minutes - not like in the 1940s, when the world had
five long years in which to wring its hands and do nothing. After the
Shihabs fall, the world will send rescue ships and medical aid for the
lightly charred. It will not nuke Iran. For what purpose and at what
cost? An American nuclear response would lastingly alienate the whole
Muslim world, deepening and universalizing the ongoing clash of
civilizations. And, of course, it would not bring Israel back. (Would
hanging a serial murderer bring back his victims?)
So what would be the point?
Still, the second holocaust will be different in the sense that
Ahmadinejad will not actually see and touch those he so wishes dead
(and, one may speculate, this might cause him disappointment as, in his
years of service in Iranian death squads in Europe, he may have
acquired a taste for actual blood). And, indeed, there will be no
scenes like the following, quoted in Daniel Mendelsohn's recent The Lost, A Search for Six of Six Million, in which is described the second Nazi action in Bolechow, Poland, in September 1942:
A terrible episode happened with Mrs. Grynberg. The Ukrainians
and Germans, who had broken into her house, found her giving birth. The
weeping and entreaties of bystanders didn't help and she was taken from
her home in a nightshirt and dragged into the square in front of the
town hall. There... she was dragged onto a dumpster in the yard of
the town hall with a crowd of Ukrainians present, who cracked jokes and
jeered and watched the pain of childbirth and she gave birth to a
child. The child was immediately torn from her arms along with its
umbilical cord and thrown - It was trampled by the crowd and she was
stood on her feet as blood poured out of her with bleeding bits hanging
and she stood that way for a few hours by the wall of the town hall,
afterwards she went with all the others to the train station where they
loaded her into a carriage in a train to Belzec.
In the next holocaust there will be no such heart-rending
scenes, of perpetrators and victims mired in blood (though, to judge
from pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the physical effects of
nuclear explosions can be fairly unpleasant).
But it will be a holocaust nonetheless.
The writer is a professor of Middle Eastern history at Ben-Gurion University.
What do you think? Is he right?
------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent."
Charles Bukowski
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Replies:
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: February 23 2007 at 14:46
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: February 23 2007 at 15:28
This is a frightening scenario, to put it lightly. Hopefully nothing
stated in this article will ever become reality. At least it is only
fiction.
But some assertions made in this article really disturb me, and quiet
frankly, they anger me too. This part bothers me the most:
Muslims the world over have
been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel
must be destroyed."
And Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a
racist oppressor state" and "Israel, in this age of multiculturalism,
is an anachronism and superfluous." Generations of Muslims and at least
a generation of Westerners have been brought up on these catechisms. I
find the first statement to be very irritating. This professor lumps
all Muslims with the extremist Muslims, and you cannot do that. This
is a terrible misconception. Only the Muslim extremists, like those
who bombed the World Trade Center on 9/11, have these kinds of beliefs,
and they are a very, very small minority. It is very insulting to
Islam to say that all or most Muslims are brought up to hate Jews and
Israel.
I find the second part of the quote to be downright offensive on a
personal level. I am a Catholic, and I was NOT brought up being taught
that "Israel is a racist oppressor state", subtly or not. I believe that Israel is a great country, with a very important history to three religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I mean without Judaism, Christianity and Islam would not exist! How can I possibly believe that Jews are an evil people in any way?
Sorry if I sound preachy, I don't mean to, but I think that this professor has some serious misconceptions about Westerner's and Muslim's feelings toward Jews and Israel.
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 23 2007 at 15:32
He didn't talk about how a lot of the Muslim world is against Iran.
These people are dangerous. All fanatics are dangerous.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Posted By: markosherrera
Date Posted: February 23 2007 at 19:48
I DONT BELIEVE THAT COULD HAPPEN THAT PROPHECYS OF DISASTERS
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: February 23 2007 at 22:38
Of course he's right, and it will happen, regardless of UN resolutions or whatever.
but I will live and prosper, so who cares really.
------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Posted By: Jeams Pfirp
Date Posted: February 23 2007 at 23:39
That's a long essay.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 13:16
That is scaremongering Zionist propoganda. I'm sorry, dont wish to offend, but does anybody hand on heart believe that either Israel or the US will allow this scenario to unfold?
Since reluctantly sponsoring the Jewish state after the British had helped to establish it, the US has invested incalcuable sums of money and political capital, in arming Israel and propping up its economy. The US will not allow over half a centuries investment go up in nuclear smoke. The Jewish community in the US may be small, but it is industrious and has been a blessing both economically and culturally to the US. America will defend Israel to the last man.
Israel is surrounded by nations who want its demise, sure, but it is Israel who has up 400 nuclear warheads pointing at cities throughout the Arab/Muslim world. It is Isreal who has been rehearsing air strikes on Iran since 2004.
It can not have escaped the attention of anyone that the US has been amassing its forces in the Gulf of Oman, ready to strike Iran at a moments notice. It can not have escaped anyones attention that Iran has stuck its fngers up - once again - at the UN over its nuclear program. Folks, it wont happen. Iran will not develop a bomb!! They will not be given the chance. Iran could be flattened in under six minutes. FACT!
Lets forget the war scenario for moment and look at the other side of Iran. The Iranian leadership faces unprecedented opposition. The views of their insane leader are not shared by the majority of the population, and for all it's failings Iran is a democracy and 'regime change' via peaceful routes is a real possibility and threat to the leadership.
The biggest threat to Israel and the west in general comes from our good friends in Russia. Forget the Muslim world with its suicide bombers, and look at the two nations who are never on the same page as the west: Russia and China. When the skirmish comes for the last drop of Middle Eastern oil, the Iranians will be the least of our worries.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 14:50
^^ Blacksword: I doubt that Israel and the US will be able to prevent scenarios like this - they're only human after all.
However, the fact that this essay comes directly from Ben Gurion University does make it a possible piece of propaganda. Not that different from what the Arabs write about Israel and the Jews - you're quite right pointing that out.
As for Iran and the Arab world: the fact that Iran has, amongst others, a female national racing champion, doesn't make them very popular with their neighbours...
------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 15:04
Angelo wrote:
^^ Blacksword: I doubt that Israel and the US will be able to prevent scenarios like this - they're only human after all.However, the fact that this essay comes directly from Ben Gurion University does make it a possible piece of propaganda. Not that different from what the Arabs write about Israel and the Jews - you're quite right pointing that out.As for Iran and the Arab world: the fact that Iran has, amongst others, a female national racing champion, doesn't make them very popular with their neighbours...
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Israel and the US will be able to prevent this scenario, if they DONT take the same approach as they have with North Korea. We waited until North Korea were testing bombs. That was classic stupidity on our part.
Iran is likely to be 10 years off having a bomb - according to the IAEA. We have ample time for both diplomacy and hard line action. Israel has already stated that Iran would not be allowed to make a bomb, at whatever cost. I cant imagine Israel going cap in hand to the UN asking for resolutions. Israel will act in the name of self preservation.
Iran is about to be dealt with. It will happen this year, and will have been in the planning for some time now. Iran has baited the west with its defiance and will pay for this. If we're lucky we'll just see global recession when this happens..
The Israeli propoganda machine is just a powerful as the radical Islamic machine. Both play up their 'victim' status. What makes Israel dangerous is the fact that it has an illegal nuclear arsenal of undisclosed size, and what makes their counterparts dangerous is their belief in the return of the 12Imam to fight the great Satan...
Oh dear..what a mess..
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 15:09
heh. religion creates deserts one way or another. ;)
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 15:36
^^ You should know, laplace, given you're located in the Neutral Zone
------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 15:46
Sadly at the moment Israel has to be called a country in which governmental racism is being executed. The way Palestinians are currently being treated allows no other term for it. And this is NOT anti-Semitism; I am anything but an anti-Semite. I critisize the Israelian politics and don't say anything against Jews in general. But it seems there are currently a lot of anti-Palestinians in the Israeli government. It is understandable that Israel is afraid of terrorist acts. But that does not justify having two kinds of laws, one for Jews and one for Palestinians, as it is currently de facto the state there. Just today I listened to a radio feature about this issue (on WDR3, in my opinion the best, if not the only German radio channel for listeners who like to be informed). The way the Israelian government currently acts they are just pouring oil into the fire.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 16:57
Careful now, we have members all over the world. Please do not make statements about countries, people, religions, groups, or individuals which may cause offence..
This thread is being carefully monitored and will be closed without further comment if it turns sour.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 17:57
The essay in the opening post is emotive as it makes references to the holocaust in WWII. This is deliberate on the writers part, even though the point he is making is that the scenario he envisages actually bares no resemblence to it. There is no scientific or politically sound foundation for his speculation. It is based on paranoia and an irrational fear of Iran.
Propoganda is at work verociously on both sides. On a news forum recently someone posted a link to a clip of an Iranian 'professor' explaining how the Tom & Jerry cartoons were part of a Jewish brainwashing conspiracy. I wont go into his reasoning (unless someone wants me to); suffice to say it was the biggest crock of sh!t I had ever heard. His audience earnestly took notes and not one questioned the obvious lunacy of his claims.
Of course it's always an academic, or some professor whose essays get published, or whose claims are splashed over the web. It's as if their academic credentials are supposed to lend some credibility to their blinkered political bias, and personal paranoias. Look behind ther words and you'll see that they dont.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 04:38
I really dislike Benny Morris' politics, despite his pretty good scholarship on the origins of Zionism and Israel. Firstly Iran doesn't even want to nuke Israel. Even if Ahmadinejad had said he wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, which he http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/news/rumor-of-the-century/ - didn't , he lacks the political power necessary to do such a thing.
I agree with Blacksword, this is rather crude propoganda that distorts what's really going on in the Middle East, making Israel look like the perpetual victim, which it obviously isn't.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 04:52
What a heap of unhelpful, shallow, twisted, bizarre, naive, under-educated pap.
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Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 05:21
Forgotten Son wrote:
Even if Ahmadinejad had said he wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, which he http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/news/rumor-of-the-century/ - didn't ,
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Yup, he didn't. He wanted something even worse: he wanted them gone from the face of time. Never to have existed.![Smile](smileys/smiley1.gif)
------------- Epic.
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 06:20
JrKASperov wrote:
Forgotten Son wrote:
Even if Ahmadinejad had said he wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, which he http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/news/rumor-of-the-century/ - didn't ,
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Yup, he didn't. He wanted something even worse: he wanted them gone from the face of time. Never to have existed.![Smile](smileys/smiley1.gif)
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Did you read that article? He quoted Khomeini who said the Israeli regime should end, not it's people. He was quoting the advocation of a single state settlement, in other words.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 06:40
Forgotten Son wrote:
I really dislike Benny Morris' politics, despite his pretty good scholarship on the origins of Zionism and Israel. Firstly Iran doesn't even want to nuke Israel. Even if Ahmadinejad had said he wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, which he http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/news/rumor-of-the-century/ - didn't , he lacks the political power necessary to do such a thing. I agree with Blacksword, this is rather crude propoganda that distorts what's really going on in the Middle East, making Israel look like the perpetual victim, which it obviously isn't. |
In all fairness, there is clearly something rotten in the state of Iran. Ahmadinejad's views are fairly clear, even if what he said is attribuatble to someone else. That said I would agree that he lacks the support in Iran for any kind of offensive on Israel, and probably for another decade wont have the means in any case.
Iran is a complex country which is often misrepresented in western media, especially when we are preparing our populations for another war, which we clearly are at present. Iran is one of the worlds oldest democracies. It's electoral system is far from perfect, but it should be understood that the current regime is actually very unpopular and is in constant danger of being toppled. Outside Israel and the US, Iran has one of the worlds largest Jewish populations, who are free to worship, travel and trade without restriction or persecution. There are even Jews within the Iranian political system; some are Zionist, some are not. The situation is far from black and white. The horrible irony of the current stand off over their nuclear program is that the more pressure Israel and the west put Iran under, the more consolidated the support for its leadership becomes. Our actions are bolstering the strength of the regime, and actually nurturing anti Semitism within Iran. It's our fault. I have to conclude that this is deliberate in order to bolster a case for attacking Iran.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 06:45
Blacksword wrote:
In all fairness, there is clearly something rotten in the state of
Iran. |
Indeed. Iran is one of the worst human rights abusers in the world.
Blacksword wrote:
Ahmadinejad's views are fairly clear, even if what he said is
attribuatble to someone else. |
Yes, he's a disgusting anti-semite. I'm not trying to apologise for him. That doesn't mean that Iran wants to nuke Israel. I think they've made it fairly clear that they don't want to get involved in a war, particularly not a nuclear war. I wholeheartedly believe that their bid for a nuclear weapon is solely for self-defence, which is understandable given US and Israeli unilateralism and the number of nuclear powers that surround them.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 06:54
Forgotten Son wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
In all fairness, there is clearly something rotten in the state of
Iran. | Indeed. Iran is one of the worst human rights abusers in the world.
Blacksword wrote:
Ahmadinejad's views are fairly clear, even if what he said is
attribuatble to someone else. | Yes, he's a disgusting anti-semite. I'm not trying to apologise for him. That doesn't mean that Iran wants to nuke Israel. I think they've made it fairly clear that they don't want to get involved in a war, particularly not a nuclear war. I wholeheartedly believe that their bid for a nuclear weapon is solely for self-defence, which is understandable given US and Israeli unilateralism and the number of nuclear powers that surround them. |
Yes, I fully understand their desire for a bomb. Any country with WMD will not be attacked by the US. North Korea had proved this. It's the language that comes out of the Iranian leadership, and the fact that they host holocaust denial conferences that set alarm bells ringing.
Dont get me wrong. I believe that it's the hypocrisy of Israel that is central to the ME problem.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 07:33
That's been one of the more foolish mistakes of several middle eastern regimes and peoples. They need to draw attention to the fact that the Holocaust was one of the worst events in human history, but that they aren't responsible for it. It's pretty disgusting the way Israel often cheapens the memory of those that perished in the Holocaust by comparing the oppressed Palestinians to Nazi genocidists.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 07:46
Forgotten Son wrote:
That's been one of the more foolish mistakes of several middle eastern regimes and peoples. They need to draw attention to the fact that the Holocaust was one of the worst events in human history, but that they aren't responsible for it. It's pretty disgusting the way Israel often cheapens the memory of those that perished in the Holocaust by comparing the oppressed Palestinians to Nazi genocidists.
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Jewish, American born historian Norman Finklestein, believes there to be a 'Holocaust industry' where the memories of those years are being exploited by dark elements of the Jewish establishment to extort money out of Germany, Switzerland and Austria. Himself, the son of holocaust survivors, believes that the new wave of anti Semitism across Europe and the US is being fuelled by this lobby..
http://www.serendipity.li/more/finkel.html - Norman Finklestein
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: sonic_assassin
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 08:03
If Iran's nuclear capability won't be onstream for another 5 or 10 years then the "Son of Star Wars" defensive shield could well be in place by then.
The SDI (strategic defense initiative) technology of the 80s wasn't reliable, but I'd be surprised if the technology of 2010 can't cope with missile interception.
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 08:27
Blacksword wrote:
[ Jewish, American born historian Norman Finklestein, believes there to be a 'Holocaust industry' where the memories of those years are being exploited by dark elements of the Jewish establishment to extort money out of Germany, Switzerland and Austria. Himself, the son of holocaust survivors, believes that the new wave of anti Semitism across Europe and the US is being fuelled by this lobby..
http://www.serendipity.li/more/finkel.html - Norman Finklestein |
I like Norman Finkelstein's work a lot. I own "The Holocaust Industry", in fact, though I've yet to read it. Too many books, not enough time. I'm currently reading an essay by the late great Edward Said, in a compilation entitled "The Politics of Anti-Semitism", which has an essay by Norman Finkelstein in it.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 08:30
sonic_assassin wrote:
If Iran's nuclear capability won't be onstream for another 5 or 10 years then the "Son of Star Wars" defensive shield could well be in place by then.The SDI (strategic defense initiative) technology of the 80s wasn't reliable, but I'd be surprised if the technology of 2010 can't cope with missile interception.
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The biggest stumbling blocks for Son of Star wars are probably political, rather than technological. I agree we probably have the means to develop it.
This week the Russians have been getting upset about the proposals. Amissile defence shield for the US and her buddies in Europe will potentially render Russias nuclear arsenal useless. They didn't say as much, but said it could ignite another arms race.
This is agood example of the complete lack of trust that exists between Russia and the west, even now. To be frank, I think the SOSW project is to counter a still very real threat from Russia and China.. No one has ever agreed with me on this, but thats my opinion..
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 10:38
Slightly Off-Topic but I thought it worth posting here:
Open Letter to Angela Merkel
Federal Chancellor Mrs. Angela Merkel
Office of the Federal Chancellor
Willi Brandt Platz 1
10667 Berlin
19th February 2007
Open Letter
Dear Mrs. Federal Chancellor and EU Council President
We, the undersigned of this open letter are turning to you with the
urgent request to do anything in your power to prevent a US war against
Iran.
Everything points to an impending comprehensive aerial war against Iran
waged by the United States of America. Studies of the International
Crisis Group show that an attack would not be confined to the
destruction of nuclear facilities alone. The aircraft carriers Stennis
and Eisenhower have already been stationed in front of Iran's shores
and according to The Guardian of February 10th there is a third
aircraft carrier on its way to the Persian Gulf.
Those three aircraft carriers and their formations are equipped with
weapons, sufficient to completely wipe out all military and civil
infrastructure of Iran, including bridges, highways, power plants,
refineries and water supply facilities.
To protect US warships against Iranian missiles, Patriot rockets have
been installed in the South of Iraq. With alarming appeals renowned
experts such as Sam Gardiner, Seymour Hersh and Daniel Elsberg have
been warning for many weeks against a new war of the US-Administration.
On February 4th three former commanders of the US military spoke up in
the Sunday Times to warn most urgently against the disastrous
consequences of an air strike. A similar warning was expressed by
former NATO commander-in-chief Wesley Clarke in Munich.
The New York Times of 9th of February is bluntly supplying some
pretexts for the attack on Iran by holding Iran responsible for the
death of 170 US-soldiers in Iraq. No one less than Zbiniew Brzezinski
turned against the distribution of such pretexts. Early in February he
warned President Bush at the US-Senate's Foreign Affairs Committee not
to make up fake evidence for a "defensive" military action against
Iran. The situation today reminds us of the false propaganda during the
months prior to the Iraq war. Unfortunately there are no indications
that the US-President is working towards a diplomatic solution. He
declines the dialogue with Iran in spite of the recommendations of the
Baker Commission. His permanent protestations that he would prefer a
diplomatic solution just serve to cheating the American people as well
as the Europeans. It seems, that within the political leadership of the
United States those have succeeded, who are determined to eliminate the
regime of the Islamic Republic and want to bomb the Iran back into a
completely irrelevant political factor in the region by the destruction
not only of its nuclear facilities but also of all its military and
relevant economic capacities. If this actually happens, the entire
region of the Middle East will tumble into chaos, which will cause a
major threat for peace in the world - not to mention the political and
economic effects for the world, last not least also for Germany. With
his insane war plans the US-President is acting against the majority of
the Americans as well as against many of his own party. In our opinion,
there is no political and moral legitimacy whatsoever for any further
co-operation with Bush in the Iran conflict since any such co-operation
would be understood as consenting to his aggression plans.
Dear Mrs. Merkel we ask you to act because danger is looming. Do
prevent this war! Otherwise Germany and the European Union could be
made responsible for a disaster of unthinkable dimensions.
- Declare an unmistakable refusal to military aggression against Iran in the name of Germany.
- Demand the EU and its member states to express themselves accordingly.
- Speak out in favour of new negotiations with the Iranian leaders
without preconditions but on the legal basis of the
Non-Proliferation-Treaty.
Stand up for a Conference of Security and Co-operation in the Middle
East to begin as early as possible, in order to start the peaceful
dialogue in the region. Either there is a common solution for the
actual conflicts in the region or there will be a fire storm, chaos and
new calamity for the whole of mankind.
Hoping that peace can be secured through the efforts from many sides we remain
Yours sincerely
Hans Christoph Graf von Sponek (former UN-Representative of the project “Oil against food” in the Irak)
Koppe (peace researcher)
Krippendorf (politics scientist)
Schorlemmer (civil rights activist)
Negt (sociologist)
Morgenroth (physiotherapist)
Grottian (politics scientist)
Mader (peace researcher)
Ruf( politic scientist, North Africa expert)
Buro (peace researcher)
Massarrat (politics scientist, Middle East expert)
Strutynski (peace researcher)
Claussen (chairman of German section of IPPNW)
Gottstein (Honorary chairman of IPPNW German Section)
Dürr (core physicist)
Signed by Prof. Dr. Mohssen Massarrat
Alfred de Zayas
www.alfreddezayas.com
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 11:23
^ That certainly was worth posting!
It sums up the lunacy of this potential conflict, and also hi-lights the obvious military build up in the region. This build up can hardly be considered to be pre-cautionary, rather strategic. The US is looking for a solid pretext for war.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 16:13
This tickled me. Israels entry to the Eurovision song contest this year, performed by 'Teapacks' is called 'Push the Button' and seems to be about the Iranian nuclear threat..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6405457.stm - 'I dont want to go Kaput - kaboom!'
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: sonic_assassin
Date Posted: March 02 2007 at 10:07
Blacksword wrote:
...To be frank, I think the SOSW project is to counter a still very real threat from Russia and China.. No one has ever agreed with me on this, but thats my opinion.. |
Well, then, let me be the first!
It's common knowledge that many US missiles in the 80s were pre-programmed with the co-ordinates of certain Soviet targets.
It would be interesting to know the default settings of today's missiles. Pyongyang and Tehran, for sure, but Beijing and Moscow too, I daresay. Or, at the very least, I bet the co-ordinates of those last two cities are written on Post-It notes in fairly prominant places near the Red Button.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 02 2007 at 11:12
sonic_assassin wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
...To be frank, I think the SOSW project is to counter a still very real threat from Russia and China.. No one has ever agreed with me on this, but thats my opinion.. | Well, then, let me be the first!It's common knowledge that many US missiles in the 80s were pre-programmed with the co-ordinates of certain Soviet targets.It would be interesting to know the default settings of today's missiles. <font size="-1">Pyongyang and Tehran, for sure, but Beijing and Moscow too, I daresay. Or, at the very least, I bet the co-ordinates of those last two cities are written on Post-It notes in fairly prominant places near the Red Button. |
Part of the deal, after the fall of the USSR, was that the US and Russia de-target their ICBM's. In other words, delete the co-ordinates for Moscow and Washing etc, respectivly off their systems. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Who knows? Is it really such a hardship to reprogram them? Is the UN monitoring the targetting of each sides ICBM's. I doubt it, I cant imagine the US allowing 'weapons inspectors' to query the pentagon databases.
Russia and China are a threat to the west, especially China as it's economy booms louder every day! With Russia within 20 years of owning all the gas that flows into Europe, and their constant objections to our activity in the ME, I have to question if Vladimir Putin - ex head of the KGB - is really Mr Bushs best 'new friend' as he put it. I dont think so.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: Paradox
Date Posted: March 02 2007 at 12:04
Nobody really knows what the future holds, so lets sit back and see what happens, eh?
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Posted By: Meddler
Date Posted: March 02 2007 at 21:16
Anti-Teutons.
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: March 03 2007 at 20:39
"They'll be cryin' bout the burnin's back in World War Three. " --Don Van Vliet
Ol' Beefheart predicted another holocaust 30 years before this guy wrote his essay. This stuff is just old news.
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![](http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/rileydog22/p159-1.jpg)
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Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 20:28
It doesn't seem logical for the writer to say Iran will develope a nuke and then use it to hit Israel. If Iran wants to get the land back to the Palestinians, a Nuke wouldn't only hurt their chances aside from political and miltary retaliation there would be the radioactive fallout.
I agree that it is propoganda.
Relating to the Tom and Jerry video posting (which I saw on Youtube) there was another video I saw that was a capture of a show from Iranian tv on why Woody Allen is an evil jewish man that will brainwash you. I'm sure the agnostic, neurotic Allen has brainwashed us all with his stange philosophies and complaints about the world.
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