why modern prog doesn`t suck - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Guests

Forum Guest Group

Topic: why modern prog doesn`t suck
Posted: February 15 2006 at 00:27

Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.

Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews, or taking a trip in an airoplane only to find terrorists have taken control and are going to give you a grand tour of the world trade centre ! The worlds not the same I`m not the same you are not the same and the World is not the same !

I believe prog being a advanced form of expression (art) reflects social values for its periodic audience that in which its aimed, it is little wonder modern prog can sometimes be bleak and a tad depressing with all that is going on ! its our way of accepting the state of the world and what its going through at this point of time. The 70`s offered us such great fantasy elements and positive thoughts, some day soon when the craziness stops we may just return to those aspects in prog but for now theres some pain to work through and modern prog is just reflecting that !

"there is nothing to fear but fear itself" or is there ?

Edited by prog o matic

Guests

Forum Guest Group

Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:17

Well said , though your point may have went over half these guys heads I think its profoundly true

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:20

prog o matic wrote:

Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.

Sorry to say this, but the world was always the same, probably not for USA citizens who lived in a bubble of false seccurity, they felt untocheable because since Pearl Harbor they were never attacked in their land, but in the rest of the world was exactly the same.

Black September kidnapped and killed the Israel Olimpic team in 1972.

13 November 1972 in Paris the Syrian journalist Khodr Kamon (36) killed , he was working on an article about Black September. 8 December Dr Mahmoud Hamshari (34) the PLO representant in Paris blown up by the Mossad.

The Baader Meinhoff and The Red Brigades kept Germany and Italy in terror during all the 70's.

The problems between England and the IRA or Spain and the ETA already existed in the 70's.

or taking a trip in an airoplane only to find terrorists have taken control and are going to give you a grand tour of the world trade centre !

The rate of highjacked airplanes taken to Cuba, African countries or USSR was much higher than today if I'm not wrong.

27 June 1976 was an Air France plane highjacked by members of Haddad's group and some caucasians, the plane landed in Entebbe, Uganda. Amin the leader of Uganda worked with the terrorists and an Israeli commando freed the hostages at night and killed the terrorists. The killed were PLO members but also were killed the RAF members Gabriele Krocher Tiedemann an Wilfried Bose.

The worlds not the same I`m not the same you are not the same and the World is not the same !

The problem is that USA citizens don't realize there's violence unless it knocks their door, but the world was as violent and even worst than today, because we all lived in terror that the cold war between USA and USSR became nuclear hot in any moment.

Fantasy world? Go ask the people who lived in Chile, Argentina, Italy, Germany, Israel, Germany, all Middle East, Cambodia (AKA The Democratic Kampuchea, where 50% of the citizens were killed with plastic bagas to save bullets) if it was a fantasy era.

The fantasy era died with the hippies when they crashed with reality in the early 70's.

Iván

"there is nothing to fear but fear itself" or is there ?

Yes there is something to fear, and that is blindness, caring only for what happens inside the border of our countries is more frightening than anything.

BTW: There was great Prog in the 70's, 90's and 2000's.

Edited by ivan_2068

Guests

Forum Guest Group

Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:25

ivan_2068 wrote:

prog o matic wrote:

Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.

Sorry to say this, but the world was always the same, probably not for USA citizens because they lived in a bubble of seccurity, they felt invulnerable because since =Pearl Harbor they were never attacked again in their land, but in the rest of the world was exactly the same.

Black September kidnapped and killed the Israel Olimpic team in 1972. 13 November 1972 was in Paris the Syrian journalist Khodr Kamon (36) killed by arabs, he was working on an article about Black September. 8 December was Dr Mahmoud Hamshari (34) the PLO representant in Paris blown up by the Mossad.

The Baader Meinhoff and The Red Brigades kept Germany and Italy in terror during all the 70's.

or taking a trip in an airoplane only to find terrorists have taken control and are going to give you a grand tour of the world trade centre !

The rate of highjacked airplanes taken to Cuba, African countries or USSR was much higher than today if I'm not wrong.

The worlds not the same I`m not the same you are not the same and the World is not the same !

Fantasy world? Go ask the people who lived in Chile, Argentina, Italy, Germany, Israel, Germany, all Middle East if it was a fantasy era.

The fantasy era died with the hippies when they crashed with reality in the early 70's.

Iván

"there is nothing to fear but fear itself" or is there ?

Yes there is something to fear, and that is blindness, caring only for what happens inside the border of our countries is more frightening than anything.

BTW: There wasgreat Prog in the 70's, 90's and 2000's.

But Prog o matic doesn`t say where he is from in his profile ? why do you think he is from America ? isn`t that a bit of a stab in the dark ivan ?

richardh

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28085

Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:32

Prog has an escapist element which with everything that is going on is needed more than ever.Modern prog is harsher but I would put that down to the post punk attitude.You just cant get away with writing music about battles betweed dinsosaurs and armour clad armadillos anymore..and mores the pity.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:41

s1ipp3ry wrote:

prog o matic wrote:

Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.

Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews,

But Prog o matic doesn`t say where he is from in his profile ? why do you think he is from America ? isn`t that a bit of a stab in the dark ivan ?

Slipp3ry, reading the first parragraph I quote and the mention to plains kidnapped to be crashed into the World trade centre we have two options:

Prog O Matic is a USA citizen
Prog O Matic is a Kid who kow nothing about the 70's

I don't believe he/she is a kid because of the reference of kids being leaved to go alone to school, so the deduction uis obvious.

Nobody outside USA would ignore the violence in the 70's.

It's very sad that the fantasy of seccurity ended for USA in such a tragic and criminal way as 9/11, but nobody in Europe, South/Central America, Asia or Africa would speak of a fantasy worlds in the 70's.

My work has trained me to see behind the words, I try not to stab in the dark, and my deduction almost always works because of experience, not for being a genius that I am not..

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

robertplantowns View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 27 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 333

Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:43

I don't think that representation of world history is apt, many all throughout the world were in comparably bleak situations, like Ivan mentioned, Israel, along with the whole of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, along with countless African, South American nations. (Also terrorism existed during the 70s, it's not a new phenonenon) I think you have a very US-centric view (and this is coming from an American) when you say that the situation is much bleaker in the US and music is reflecting that reality, even though on a global-political level the situation was as bleak, the late 60s and 70s were well into the cold war, so that seems to me to be a contradiction.
Also using the style of a couple of prog bands to suggest a greater trend in music is not a very scientific way of looking at things so it would also help if you named the particular bands you are referring which would allow for a further analysis and a more informed discussion.

Also I would want to believe that if your theory were correct, popular music would reflect this "new" bleakness along with prog music, but judging by the IQs and awareness of reality in pop music, this is seriously overestimating their capabilities, which gives credence to your theory because prog has always been the leading intelligent music artform at least to me and would be most likely to reflect these realities you refer to.

Here are two prog bands that reflect the bleakeness of today's political reality, both from Israel
Ahvak, Blackfield (Aviv Geffen)

Here's one that somewhat refutes that theory
Riverside-Second Life Syndrome (the situation is Poland is relatively better than it was under Communism in the 70s, but nonetheless quite bleak by any other comparison)

Also let me suggest that I think that darker music today may be influenced by general existentialism or the bleak realities of the post-modern and post-industrial world, which are more related to life in general than islamic terrorism/fundamentalism.

This would be a more interesting discussion if people demonstrated or refuted that theory with examples from various countries to illustrate this effect!

Guests

Forum Guest Group

Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:46

ivan_2068 wrote:

s1ipp3ry wrote:

prog o matic wrote:

Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.

But Prog o matic doesn`t say where he is from in his profile ? why do you think he is from America ? isn`t that a bit of a stab in the dark ivan ?

Slipp3ry, reading the first parragraph I quote and the mention to plains kidnapped to be crashed into the World trade centre are obvious and clear, this is a USA citizen talking.

Nobody outside USA would ignore the violence in the 70's. Or maybe Prog O Matic is a kid that knows nothing about the 70's what i doubt because he/she talks about kids leaving alone in the streets

It's very sad that the fantasy of seccurity ended for USA in such a tragic and criminal way, but nobody in Europe, South/Central America, Asia or Africa would speak of a fantasy worlds in the 70's.

My work has trained me to see behind the words, i don't try to stab in the dark.

Iván

Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was. The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population, Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate !

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: February 15 2006 at 02:01

prog o matic wrote:

Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was.

I have the biggest simpathy for USA, anybody who knows me here is concious I'm anti communist and like the American way of live.

But for God's sake, what a bloody arrogants are some of you!!!!

Sept 11 was significant for you, and it affected all of us because we saw with horror what happened, but honestly The World Trade Centre as repulsive and criminal as it is, has the same significance for the rest of the world as what happens in Perú, England, Israel or Japan.

But you closed your eyes when Pol Pot killed 50% of the population of Cambodia, when Pinochet killed people in Chile, when Shinning Path killed 30,000 Peruvian citizens, when the Baader Meinhoff lept Germany in terror, when The Red Brigades kept Germany in terror, ehen IRA and ETA kept ENGLAND (YES ENGLAND) and Spain in constant alert.

When all an Olimpic team is killed in Munich and the rest of the world keeps playing their sports as if nothing had happened.

Yes, we live in little places, but a live of a USA citizen is as valuable as the life of any person in the world, if you don't understand that, you don't understand the legacy of democracy and respect of human rights in USA Constitution and in the rest of the coivilized world.

Honestly I don't know if yopu're arrogant or just ignorant.

The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population,

Now I don't believe you're ignorant, you're just stupid.

Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate !

I don't believe GB was happy in the 70's with the Irish crisis and the IRA, but it's a waste of time talking with such an arrogant moron.

EDIT: Another prove of your total lack of knowledge is claimingthat the best Prog came in the 70's from USA.

USA except Kansas and a couple of good bands had nothing relevant, the best Prog vcame from UK, Italy, Netherlands, Germany etc.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

KoS

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310

Posted: February 15 2006 at 02:15

also another violent thing that happend was the Vietnam war
has everybody forgoten already?

DarioIndjic View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: April 15 2005
Location: Universe
Status: Offline
Points: 600

Posted: February 15 2006 at 02:59

In some part of the world 70s were magical(like it was in Yugoslavia)but everything is a manner of personal situation and perception.

Ars longa , vita brevis

Littlewashu5 View Drop Down

Forum Groupie

Joined: March 26 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 84

Posted: February 15 2006 at 03:30

I'm having a hard time understanding what the original post is trying to say, but music AWLAYS reflects the time it was made. Look at some of the band's in the 70's/80's. A lot of the lyrical content of bands like Pink Floyd and Van Der Graaf Generator sang had to do with the Cold War. To someone like me, born in 1983, the lyrics seem less than topical (it doesn't help that both bands from a socio-political stand point ended up on the wrong side of history) I think that's why some bands these days avoid lyrics about social-political issues. What was relevant in 1976 isn't exactly relevant in 2006. Ultimately the music simply ends up sounding dated. Ten years from now, is anybody going to care what guys like Andy Tillson and Peter Nichols have to say about the Iraq war? Probably not, because Iraq won't be headline news. Iraq will either be able to govern itself or it will become a suburb of Tehran. But nobody will care what a bunch of musicians had to say because musicians aren't politicians, and are often no more educated on the issues than the average joe on the street.

I edited out the second part of my posts because I misinterpreted Ivan's thoughts on 9/11. I would do a complete re-write, but I have work in the morning and here on the east coast of the US it's 4:00 AM.....

Edited by Littlewashu5

Littlewashu5 View Drop Down

Forum Groupie

Joined: March 26 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 84

Posted: February 15 2006 at 03:32

PS

Are you SURE the original poster is American? His English is HORRIBLE (unless he's not a native English speaker)

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: February 15 2006 at 04:12

Littlewashu5, what happened in USA on 9/11 was not a problem of USA only, it was a problem of all the world, because one life is worth anywhere and terror must be rejected.

But what happened in Perú (30,000 victims of terrorism), Chile (You know better than me), Cambodia, Munich Olympic Village, Germany, Italy, Israel, Prague (After the famous spring), Entebbe, Vietnam, etc is also important for the rest of the world.

Idiots like prog o matic who say that what happens in little countries is not important, are an offense for all civilization.

Guys who say I live well, so I don't care for the rest of the world are leeches, even if they are from USA, Perú, Japan, Norway or Israel, but I seen few people as arrogant, empty minded and despective as prog o matic.

Iván

darren

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 31 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 452

Posted: February 15 2006 at 05:36

Let's not forget East Timor. What happened there
was comparable to Cambodia but went unnoticed
as the oppressors (Indonesia) were US allies.

Sorry, now I'm off topic. It seems someone will
always say "it was better in the old days". Back in the
70's, we were told how great the 50's were. When
Live Aid happened, we were told it was nothing
compared to Woodstock in 69.

People always say the music was better in the 70's
and the music of the 80's (then 90's) sucked. These
people tend to filter out the one hit wonder and pop
crap from the 70's. (Mouth and McNeil anyone? How
about Donny Osmond? Leif Garret? David Soul?
Midnight At The Oasis? Anyone remeber John
Travolta's singing career?)

As time goes on, we just tend to filter out the bad and
glorify the good.

I agree with the other posts that say 911, though
undeniably tragic, was horrifying only because it was
broadcast live and targeted somewhere that few
thought would be vulnerable. Also, being in NY, it
affected many as people from around the world
worked there. I'm from a small town in Canada and I
knew a woman who travelled to the World Trade
Centre for business every couple of weeks.
She grew up across the road from my Grandmother.
Thankfully, she wasn't there that day. (No doubt
others could probably give you first hand,
heartbreaking stories, I'm just telling how far
reaching this is.)

Of course there is a case to be made that 911 wasn't
unprevoked but I think it's still too raw to debate...
and wrong forum.

Edited by darren

"they locked up a man who wanted to rule the world.
the fools
they locked up the wrong man."
- Leonard Cohen

erlenst

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 387

Posted: February 15 2006 at 06:25

ivan_2068 wrote:

Littlewashu5, what happened in USA on 9/11 was not a problem of USA only, it was a problem of all the world, because one life is worth anywhere and terror must be rejected.

Idiots like prog o matic who say that what happens in little countries is not important, are an offense for all civilization.

Iván

Thank you Ivan for pointing out all these things !

Syzygy

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003

Posted: February 15 2006 at 06:35

[/QUOTE]

With all the IRA bombs, the power cuts, the 3 day week, galloping inflation, rising unemployment, the emergence of far right/nazi parties, nationalised industries collapsing and a succession of truly dismal performances in international football, Britain was a real oasis of joy in the 1970s.

And just when we thought it couldn't get any worse, we got Maggie Thatcher!

'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom

Kid-A

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 613

Posted: February 15 2006 at 07:17

My Mum said that the 70's were bleak times. (in the UK)

In the early 70's for a while, the power was cut out every night at ten! due to a long strike. Thats hardly a happy country.

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20251

Posted: February 15 2006 at 07:58

While I have wonderful memories of the teenhood in the seventies in English Canada , I cannot help to think I was constantly under pressure/suspiscion as a French-speaker that we were all enemies of Canada since the Sepatism thing was creating tension.

Let alone the so-called cultural liberation/explosion of Quebec which could not find a market outsideits own restricted province boundaries. Groups like Opus 5 , Maneige, Aquarelle, Pollen and to a lesser extent Harmonium were almost unheard on English radios and not present in most record shops

Belgium in the 70's was not all rosy either since the separatism and extreme right Flemish were coming up to murders of poster-placating militants from their political foesduring election time. Many of the extremist groups such as VMO, TAK, Voorpost and the likes actually enjoy the neo nazi stance

The 70's were also the times of the oil crisis with Sundays without cars, and still going to Spain or Portugal that were under fascist regime. The Cold War was also quite gloomy for Continental Europeans and finally culminated in massive anti-Pershing missile deployment demonstrations.

Of course these political tensions were nothing compared to having countries genociding themselves such as Cambodia,and semestrial Coup D' état in Latin America.

But my own personal memories of the 70's are generally quite rosy, but as a stupid music-obsessed youth , I did not know any better. And my dearest wish is to actually have been born one decade sooner to be able to take much more advantage of that superb musical creative decade between 65 until 75. But this is only wishful thinking

Alas

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Guests

Forum Guest Group

Posted: February 15 2006 at 08:38

Look it was just a post I thought up, I believe it had merit and insight. Remind me not to post anything with any substance in the future ...

Edited by prog o matic