why modern prog doesn`t suck
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Topic: why modern prog doesn`t suck
Posted By: Guests
Subject: why modern prog doesn`t suck
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 00:27
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Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.
Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews, or taking a trip in an airoplane only to find terrorists have taken control and are going to give you a grand tour of the world trade centre ! The worlds not the same I`m not the same you are not the same and the World is not the same ! 
I believe prog being a advanced form of expression (art) reflects social values for its periodic audience that in which its aimed, it is little wonder modern prog can sometimes be bleak and a tad depressing with all that is going on ! its our way of accepting the state of the world and what its going through at this point of time. The 70`s offered us such great fantasy elements and positive thoughts, some day soon when the craziness stops we may just return to those aspects in prog but for now theres some pain to work through and modern prog is just reflecting that ! 
"there is nothing to fear but fear itself" or is there ? 
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Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:17
 Well said , though your point may have went over half these guys heads I think its profoundly true
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:20
 prog o matic wrote:
Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.
Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews,
Sorry to say this, but the world was always the same, probably not for USA citizens who lived in a bubble of false seccurity, they felt untocheable because since Pearl Harbor they were never attacked in their land, but in the rest of the world was exactly the same.
Black September kidnapped and killed the Israel Olimpic team in 1972.
13 November 1972 in Paris the Syrian journalist Khodr Kamon (36) killed , he was working on an article about Black September. 8 December Dr Mahmoud Hamshari (34) the PLO representant in Paris blown up by the Mossad.
The Baader Meinhoff and The Red Brigades kept Germany and Italy in terror during all the 70's.
The problems between England and the IRA or Spain and the ETA already existed in the 70's.
or taking a trip in an airoplane only to find terrorists have taken control and are going to give you a grand tour of the world trade centre !
The rate of highjacked airplanes taken to Cuba, African countries or USSR was much higher than today if I'm not wrong.
27 June 1976 was an Air France plane highjacked by members of Haddad's group and some caucasians, the plane landed in Entebbe, Uganda. Amin the leader of Uganda worked with the terrorists and an Israeli commando freed the hostages at night and killed the terrorists. The killed were PLO members but also were killed the RAF members Gabriele Krocher Tiedemann an Wilfried Bose.
The worlds not the same I`m not the same you are not the same and the World is not the same !
The problem is that USA citizens don't realize there's violence unless it knocks their door, but the world was as violent and even worst than today, because we all lived in terror that the cold war between USA and USSR became nuclear hot in any moment.
I believe prog being a advanced form of expression (art) reflects social values for its periodic audience that in which its aimed, it is little wonder modern prog can sometimes be bleak and a tad depressing with all that is going on ! its our way of accepting the state of the world and what its going through at this point of time. The 70`s offered us such great fantasy elements and positive thoughts, some day soon when the craziness stops we may just return to those aspects in prog but for now theres some pain to work through and modern prog is just reflecting that !
Fantasy world? Go ask the people who lived in Chile, Argentina, Italy, Germany, Israel, Germany, all Middle East, Cambodia (AKA The Democratic Kampuchea, where 50% of the citizens were killed with plastic bagas to save bullets) if it was a fantasy era. 
The fantasy era died with the hippies when they crashed with reality in the early 70's.
Iván
"there is nothing to fear but fear itself" or is there ?
Yes there is something to fear, and that is blindness, caring only for what happens inside the border of our countries is more frightening than anything.
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BTW: There was great Prog in the 70's, 90's and 2000's.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:25
ivan_2068 wrote:
prog o matic wrote:
Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.
Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews,
Sorry to say this, but the world was always the same, probably not for USA citizens because they lived in a bubble of seccurity, they felt invulnerable because since =Pearl Harbor they were never attacked again in their land, but in the rest of the world was exactly the same.
Black September kidnapped and killed the Israel Olimpic team in 1972. 13 November 1972 was in Paris the Syrian journalist Khodr Kamon (36) killed by arabs, he was working on an article about Black September. 8 December was Dr Mahmoud Hamshari (34) the PLO representant in Paris blown up by the Mossad.
The Baader Meinhoff and The Red Brigades kept Germany and Italy in terror during all the 70's.
or taking a trip in an airoplane only to find terrorists have taken control and are going to give you a grand tour of the world trade centre !
The rate of highjacked airplanes taken to Cuba, African countries or USSR was much higher than today if I'm not wrong.
27 June 1976 was an Air France plane highjacked by members of Haddad's group and some caucasians, the plane landed in Entebbe, Uganda. Amin the leader of Uganda worked with the terrorists and an Israeli commando freed the hostages at night and killed the terrorists. The killed were PLO members but also were killed the RAF members Gabriele Krocher Tiedemann an Wilfried Bose.
The worlds not the same I`m not the same you are not the same and the World is not the same !
The problem is that USA citizens don't realize there's violence unless it knocks their door, but the world was as violent and even worst than today, because we all lived in terror that the cold war between USA and USSR became nuclear hot in any moment.
I believe prog being a advanced form of expression (art) reflects social values for its periodic audience that in which its aimed, it is little wonder modern prog can sometimes be bleak and a tad depressing with all that is going on ! its our way of accepting the state of the world and what its going through at this point of time. The 70`s offered us such great fantasy elements and positive thoughts, some day soon when the craziness stops we may just return to those aspects in prog but for now theres some pain to work through and modern prog is just reflecting that !
Fantasy world? Go ask the people who lived in Chile, Argentina, Italy, Germany, Israel, Germany, all Middle East if it was a fantasy era.
The fantasy era died with the hippies when they crashed with reality in the early 70's.
Iván
"there is nothing to fear but fear itself" or is there ?
Yes there is something to fear, and that is blindness, caring only for what happens inside the border of our countries is more frightening than anything.
|
BTW: There wasgreat Prog in the 70's, 90's and 2000's. |
But Prog o matic doesn`t say where he is from in his profile ? why do you think he is from America ? isn`t that a bit of a stab in the dark ivan ? 
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:32
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Prog has an escapist element which with everything that is going on is needed more than ever.Modern prog is harsher but I would put that down to the post punk attitude.You just cant get away with writing music about battles betweed dinsosaurs and armour clad armadillos anymore..and mores the pity.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:41
s1ipp3ry wrote:
prog o matic wrote:
Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.
Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews, |
But Prog o matic doesn`t say where he is from in his profile ? why do you think he is from America ? isn`t that a bit of a stab in the dark ivan ?
|
Slipp3ry, reading the first parragraph I quote and the mention to plains kidnapped to be crashed into the World trade centre we have two options:
- Prog O Matic is a USA citizen
- Prog O Matic is a Kid who kow nothing about the 70's
I don't believe he/she is a kid because of the reference of kids being leaved to go alone to school, so the deduction uis obvious.
Nobody outside USA would ignore the violence in the 70's.
It's very sad that the fantasy of seccurity ended for USA in such a tragic and criminal way as 9/11, but nobody in Europe, South/Central America, Asia or Africa would speak of a fantasy worlds in the 70's.
My work has trained me to see behind the words, I try not to stab in the dark, and my deduction almost always works because of experience, not for being a genius that I am not..
Iván
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Posted By: robertplantowns
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:43
I don't think that representation of world history is apt, many all throughout the world were in comparably bleak situations, like Ivan mentioned, Israel, along with the whole of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, along with countless African, South American nations. (Also terrorism existed during the 70s, it's not a new phenonenon) I think you have a very US-centric view (and this is coming from an American) when you say that the situation is much bleaker in the US and music is reflecting that reality, even though on a global-political level the situation was as bleak, the late 60s and 70s were well into the cold war, so that seems to me to be a contradiction.
Also using the style of a couple of prog bands to suggest a greater trend in music is not a very scientific way of looking at things so it would also help if you named the particular bands you are referring which would allow for a further analysis and a more informed discussion.
Also I would want to believe that if your theory were correct, popular music would reflect this "new" bleakness along with prog music, but judging by the IQs and awareness of reality in pop music, this is seriously overestimating their capabilities, which gives credence to your theory because prog has always been the leading intelligent music artform at least to me and would be most likely to reflect these realities you refer to.
Here are two prog bands that reflect the bleakeness of today's political reality, both from Israel
Ahvak, Blackfield (Aviv Geffen)
Here's one that somewhat refutes that theory
Riverside-Second Life Syndrome (the situation is Poland is relatively better than it was under Communism in the 70s, but nonetheless quite bleak by any other comparison)
Also let me suggest that I think that darker music today may be influenced by general existentialism or the bleak realities of the post-modern and post-industrial world, which are more related to life in general than islamic terrorism/fundamentalism.
This would be a more interesting discussion if people demonstrated or refuted that theory with examples from various countries to illustrate this effect!
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:46
ivan_2068 wrote:
s1ipp3ry wrote:
prog o matic wrote:
Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.
Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews, |
But Prog o matic doesn`t say where he is from in his profile ? why do you think he is from America ? isn`t that a bit of a stab in the dark ivan ?
|
Slipp3ry, reading the first parragraph I quote and the mention to plains kidnapped to be crashed into the World trade centre are obvious and clear, this is a USA citizen talking.
Nobody outside USA would ignore the violence in the 70's. Or maybe Prog O Matic is a kid that knows nothing about the 70's what i doubt because he/she talks about kids leaving alone in the streets
It's very sad that the fantasy of seccurity ended for USA in such a tragic and criminal way, but nobody in Europe, South/Central America, Asia or Africa would speak of a fantasy worlds in the 70's.
My work has trained me to see behind the words, i don't try to stab in the dark.
Iván |
Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was. The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population, Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate !
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 02:01
prog o matic wrote:
Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was.
I have the biggest simpathy for USA, anybody who knows me here is concious I'm anti communist and like the American way of live.
But for God's sake, what a bloody arrogants are some of you!!!!
Sept 11 was significant for you, and it affected all of us because we saw with horror what happened, but honestly The World Trade Centre as repulsive and criminal as it is, has the same significance for the rest of the world as what happens in Perú, England, Israel or Japan.
But you closed your eyes when Pol Pot killed 50% of the population of Cambodia, when Pinochet killed people in Chile, when Shinning Path killed 30,000 Peruvian citizens, when the Baader Meinhoff lept Germany in terror, when The Red Brigades kept Germany in terror, ehen IRA and ETA kept ENGLAND (YES ENGLAND) and Spain in constant alert.
When all an Olimpic team is killed in Munich and the rest of the world keeps playing their sports as if nothing had happened.
Yes, we live in little places, but a live of a USA citizen is as valuable as the life of any person in the world, if you don't understand that, you don't understand the legacy of democracy and respect of human rights in USA Constitution and in the rest of the coivilized world.
Honestly I don't know if yopu're arrogant or just ignorant.
The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population,
Now I don't believe you're ignorant, you're just stupid.
Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate !
I don't believe GB was happy in the 70's with the Irish crisis and the IRA, but it's a waste of time talking with such an arrogant moron.
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EDIT: Another prove of your total lack of knowledge is claimingthat the best Prog came in the 70's from USA.
USA except Kansas and a couple of good bands had nothing relevant, the best Prog vcame from UK, Italy, Netherlands, Germany etc.
Iván
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Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 02:15
also another violent thing that happend was the Vietnam war
has everybody forgoten already?
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Posted By: DarioIndjic
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 02:59
In some part of the world 70s were magical(like it was in Yugoslavia)but everything is a manner of personal situation and perception.
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Ars longa , vita brevis
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Posted By: Littlewashu5
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 03:30
I'm having a hard time understanding what the original post is trying to say, but music AWLAYS reflects the time it was made. Look at some of the band's in the 70's/80's. A lot of the lyrical content of bands like Pink Floyd and Van Der Graaf Generator sang had to do with the Cold War. To someone like me, born in 1983, the lyrics seem less than topical (it doesn't help that both bands from a socio-political stand point ended up on the wrong side of history) I think that's why some bands these days avoid lyrics about social-political issues. What was relevant in 1976 isn't exactly relevant in 2006. Ultimately the music simply ends up sounding dated. Ten years from now, is anybody going to care what guys like Andy Tillson and Peter Nichols have to say about the Iraq war? Probably not, because Iraq won't be headline news. Iraq will either be able to govern itself or it will become a suburb of Tehran. But nobody will care what a bunch of musicians had to say because musicians aren't politicians, and are often no more educated on the issues than the average joe on the street.
I edited out the second part of my posts because I misinterpreted Ivan's thoughts on 9/11. I would do a complete re-write, but I have work in the morning and here on the east coast of the US it's 4:00 AM.....
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Posted By: Littlewashu5
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 03:32
PS
Are you SURE the original poster is American? His English is HORRIBLE (unless he's not a native English speaker)
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 04:12
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Littlewashu5, what happened in USA on 9/11 was not a problem of USA only, it was a problem of all the world, because one life is worth anywhere and terror must be rejected.
But what happened in Perú (30,000 victims of terrorism), Chile (You know better than me), Cambodia, Munich Olympic Village, Germany, Italy, Israel, Prague (After the famous spring), Entebbe, Vietnam, etc is also important for the rest of the world.
Idiots like prog o matic who say that what happens in little countries is not important, are an offense for all civilization.
Guys who say I live well, so I don't care for the rest of the world are leeches, even if they are from USA, Perú, Japan, Norway or Israel, but I seen few people as arrogant, empty minded and despective as prog o matic.
Iván
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Posted By: darren
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 05:36
Let's not forget East Timor. What happened there
was comparable to Cambodia but went unnoticed
as the oppressors (Indonesia) were US allies.
Sorry, now I'm off topic. It seems someone will
always say "it was better in the old days". Back in the
70's, we were told how great the 50's were. When
Live Aid happened, we were told it was nothing
compared to Woodstock in 69.
People always say the music was better in the 70's
and the music of the 80's (then 90's) sucked. These
people tend to filter out the one hit wonder and pop
crap from the 70's. (Mouth and McNeil anyone? How
about Donny Osmond? Leif Garret? David Soul?
Midnight At The Oasis? Anyone remeber John
Travolta's singing career?)
As time goes on, we just tend to filter out the bad and
glorify the good.
I agree with the other posts that say 911, though
undeniably tragic, was horrifying only because it was
broadcast live and targeted somewhere that few
thought would be vulnerable. Also, being in NY, it
affected many as people from around the world
worked there. I'm from a small town in Canada and I
knew a woman who travelled to the World Trade
Centre for business every couple of weeks.
She grew up across the road from my Grandmother.
Thankfully, she wasn't there that day. (No doubt
others could probably give you first hand,
heartbreaking stories, I'm just telling how far
reaching this is.)
Of course there is a case to be made that 911 wasn't
unprevoked but I think it's still too raw to debate...
and wrong forum.
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"they locked up a man who wanted to rule the world.
the fools
they locked up the wrong man."
- Leonard Cohen
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Posted By: erlenst
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 06:25
ivan_2068 wrote:
Littlewashu5, what happened in USA on 9/11 was not a problem of USA only, it was a problem of all the world, because one life is worth anywhere and terror must be rejected.
But what happened in Perú (30,000 victims of terrorism), Chile
(You know better than me), Cambodia, Munich Olympic Village,
Germany, Italy, Israel, Prague (After the famous spring), Entebbe,
Vietnam, etc is also important for the rest of the world.
Idiots like prog o matic who say that what happens in little countries is not important, are an offense for all civilization.
Guys who say I live well, so I don't care for the rest of the world
are leeches, even if they are from USA, Perú, Japan, Norway or Israel,
but I seen few people as arrogant, empty minded and despective as prog o matic.
Iván
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Thank you Ivan for pointing out all these things !
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Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 06:35
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Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was. The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population, Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate !
[/QUOTE]
With all the IRA bombs, the power cuts, the 3 day week, galloping inflation, rising unemployment, the emergence of far right/nazi parties, nationalised industries collapsing and a succession of truly dismal performances in international football, Britain was a real oasis of joy in the 1970s.
And just when we thought it couldn't get any worse, we got Maggie  Thatcher!
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Posted By: Kid-A
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 07:17
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My Mum said that the 70's were bleak times. (in the UK)
In the early 70's for a while, the power was cut out every night at ten! due to a long strike. Thats hardly a happy country.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 07:58
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While I have wonderful memories of the teenhood in the seventies in English Canada , I cannot help to think I was constantly under pressure/suspiscion as a French-speaker that we were all enemies of Canada since the Sepatism thing was creating tension.
Let alone the so-called cultural liberation/explosion of Quebec which could not find a market outsideits own restricted province boundaries. Groups like Opus 5 , Maneige, Aquarelle, Pollen and to a lesser extent Harmonium were almost unheard on English radios and not present in most record shops
Belgium in the 70's was not all rosy either since the separatism and extreme right Flemish were coming up to murders of poster-placating militants from their political foesduring election time. Many of the extremist groups such as VMO, TAK, Voorpost and the likes actually enjoy the neo nazi stance
The 70's were also the times of the oil crisis with Sundays without cars, and still going to Spain or Portugal that were under fascist regime. The Cold War was also quite gloomy for Continental Europeans and finally culminated in massive anti-Pershing missile deployment demonstrations.
Of course these political tensions were nothing compared to having countries genociding themselves such as Cambodia,and semestrial Coup D' état in Latin America.
But my own personal memories of the 70's are generally quite rosy, but as a stupid music-obsessed youth , I did not know any better. And my dearest wish is to actually have been born one decade sooner to be able to take much more advantage of that superb musical creative decade between 65 until 75. But this is only wishful thinking
Alas
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 08:38
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Look it was just a post I thought up, I believe it had merit and insight. Remind me not to post anything with any substance in the future ... 
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 08:55
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prog o matic wrote:
Look it was just a post I thought up , I believe it had merit and insight . Remind me not to post anything with any substance in the future .. sorry but I thought you guys were deep thinkers seems I was wrong |
Don't take it too personally, you posted a view and people (I think Ivan was maybe a little harsh on you) answered back but not in your directions: such is life on a forum.
I think you are still relatively new, here and one adaptation US citizens must realize is that the international prog loving crowd around the world is rather left-leaning (politically speaking, but this does not make us communist either) so a lot of US'ers can actually set spark troubles with what they consider anodine comments.
As I said , in theory, the 70's were like paradise (especially in the US I think, since the civil rights fight had gone much softer after the troubled 60's and Nam ended), but in reality, this was not rosy.
-------------
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 09:07
Sean Trane wrote:
prog o matic wrote:
Look it was just a post I thought up , I believe it had merit and insight . Remind me not to post anything with any substance in the future .. sorry but I thought you guys were deep thinkers seems I was wrong |
Don't take it too personally, you posted a view and people (I think Ivan was maybe a little harsh on you) answered back but not in your directions: such is life on a forum.
I think you are still relatively new, here and one adaptation US citizens must realize is that the international prog loving crowd around the world is rather left-leaning (politically speaking, but this does not make us communist either) so a lot of US'ers can actually set spark troubles with what they consider anodine comments.
As I said , in theory, the 70's were like paradise (especially in the US I think, since the civil rights fight had gone much softer after the troubled 60's and Nam ended), but in reality, this was not rosy.
|
OK thanks , its funny in a way now but I was frustrated at the time 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 09:18
ivan_2068 wrote:
prog o matic wrote:
Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was.
I have the biggest simpathy for USA, anybody who knows me here is concious I'm anti communist and like the American way of live.
But for God's sake, what a bloody arrogants are some of you!!!!
Sept 11 was significant for you, and it affected all of us because we saw with horror what happened, but honestly The World Trade Centre as repulsive and criminal as it is, has the same significance for the rest of the world as what happens in Perú, England, Israel or Japan.
But you closed your eyes when Pol Pot killed 50% of the population of Cambodia, when Pinochet killed people in Chile, when Shinning Path killed 30,000 Peruvian citizens, when the Baader Meinhoff lept Germany in terror, when The Red Brigades kept Germany in terror, ehen IRA and ETA kept ENGLAND (YES ENGLAND) and Spain in constant alert.
When all an Olimpic team is killed in Munich and the rest of the world keeps playing their sports as if nothing had happened.
Yes, we live in little places, but a live of a USA citizen is as valuable as the life of any person in the world, if you don't understand that, you don't understand the legacy of democracy and respect of human rights in USA Constitution and in the rest of the coivilized world.
Honestly I don't know if yopu're arrogant or just ignorant.
The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population,
Now I don't believe you're ignorant, you're just stupid.
Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate !
I don't believe GB was happy in the 70's with the Irish crisis and the IRA, but it's a waste of time talking with such an arrogant moron.
|
EDIT: Another prove of your total lack of knowledge is claimingthat the best Prog came in the 70's from USA.
USA except Kansas and a couple of good bands had nothing relevant, the best Prog vcame from UK, Italy, Netherlands, Germany etc.
Iván |
Ivan I said Britain first (which you carefuly deleted) thats where the better prog was coming from in the 70`s, The USA were buying it up (as a muso which I am I have always considered the audience as part of the movement)... you really need to be more honest with your cutting and pasting Ivan BTW I`m not from the USA
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Posted By: FragileDT
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 09:43
ivan_2068 wrote:
Littlewashu5, what happened in USA on 9/11 was
not a problem of USA only, it was a problem of all the world,
because one life is worth anywhere and terror must be rejected.
But what happened in Perú (30,000 victims of terrorism), Chile
(You know better than me), Cambodia, Munich Olympic Village, Germany,
Italy, Israel, Prague (After the famous spring), Entebbe, Vietnam, etc is
also important for the rest of the world.
Idiots like <SPAN =bold>prog o matic </SPAN>who say that what
happens in little countries is not important, are an offense for all
civilization.
Guys who say I live well, so I don't care for the rest of the world are
leeches, even if they are from USA, Perú, Japan, Norway or Israel, but I
seen few people as arrogant, empty minded and despective as <SPAN
=bold>prog o matic.</SPAN>
Iván
|
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One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 09:48
FragileDT wrote:
ivan_2068 wrote:
Littlewashu5, what happened in USA on 9/11 was
not a problem of USA only, it was a problem of all the world,
because one life is worth anywhere and terror must be rejected.
But what happened in Perú (30,000 victims of terrorism), Chile
(You know better than me), Cambodia, Munich Olympic Village, Germany,
Italy, Israel, Prague (After the famous spring), Entebbe, Vietnam, etc is
also important for the rest of the world.
Idiots like <SPAN =bold>prog o matic </SPAN>who say that what
happens in little countries is not important, are an offense for all
civilization.
Guys who say I live well, so I don't care for the rest of the world are
leeches, even if they are from USA, Perú, Japan, Norway or Israel, but I
seen few people as arrogant, empty minded and despective as <SPAN
=bold>prog o matic.</SPAN>
Iván
|
|
Come on I was very much baited (by Ivan) into making a few remarks (many of which he claims I said are untrue so hes not being honest and I make no apoligy for that remark .. just scroll back to verify ) All people are equal in my Book no counrty is more important to the next , If I was you I would properly read the whole post to properly put this thing into context, just to exercise some fairness into things Besides Ivan said some really stupid things so focus on your collaborater or rather question his motive (for the record the world econemy is based around how well America is doing ) War is about dollars , America has the wealth and is the only remaining Super Power, so Face reality (no I am not American) but any fool knows that compared to America we are all little countries (just a figure of speech) please wake up !
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 12:47
Prog o matic...this is really the most paranoic post ever. I´m pretty sure you are so what of a CNN fan, who beginns to go mental and think´s you are no longer safe because some things happen in your country...but back in the days everything was sunshine and rainbows in the world, right? Well, guess what, the world is in a lot of sh*t since the beginings of time...but to say prog talks about that??? Specially in the 70? I find prog to be maybe one of thouse music that really can take you away from reality...if you want reality in your music, there´s always U2, or early punk...you got the wrong genre mr!
-------------
"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 13:47
|
prog o matic wrote:
Come on I was very much baited (by Ivan) into making a few remarks (many of which he claims I said are untrue so hes not being honest and I make no apoligy for that remark .. just scroll back to verify )
I knew you wouldn't apologize, because you believe you're the center of the world, and again I live from making investigations and using deduction to solve judicial cases, your phrases clearly show you live in USA, you're a Christian (Probably reborn) and the only things that affect you are those that happen in your lawn.
All people are equal in my Book no counrty is more important to the next ,
Are you sure?
Prog o matic wrote:
| These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population |
So...your own words prove that according to you, "little places" i was taking about don't matter for the big population:
- Almost 2'000,000 humans killed in Cambodia with plastic bags in the head to save bullets.
- 30'000 humble peasents killed in Perú by Shinning Path, who started their offensive in the late 70's.
- Bolivia changing Governments even three times in a month with victims in each case.
- Not precised thousand of persons killed in Chile by Pinochet's Government
- I can't remember how many dissapeared citizens in Argentina by the Military Government
- People from Ireland and England killing themselves every day during the 70's
- People from Israel being attacked by terrorists daily or kidnapped and taken to Entebe where Idi Amin helped the terrorists.
- A whole Olympic team massacred in Germany by Black September while the world kept playing, the world didn't even had the decency to close the olympic games.
- American and VC soldiers and civilians killed each day in war that didn't ended.
- Italian civilians and even Aldo Moro killed by explosions created by the Red Brigades or kidnapped and killed.
- Baader Meinhoff, one of the most bloody terrorist movements kept Germany in terror.
- Millions of citizens in Romania, Hungary, Poland and behind the iron curtain living without freedom.
- Millions of Jewish and disidents sent to the gulags and Siberia only for having disagreements with the Politboureau
- Millions killed by Idi Amin Dada who according to some people practiced canibalism (Not proved though)
- The whole world threatened by a nuclear holocaust because of the cold war.
- Afghanistan invaded by the Soviet Union (But in those days USA supported Afghanistan).
- Thousand of cubans escaping from death in rafts to Miami.
- Dictators as Stroesnner and Somoza still in the Government of their countries, being the alternative communist revolutions supoported by Cuba and USSR (In other words they had to jump from a boilling pot of water to hot pan full of oil).
- Millions of black South Africans were treated worst than animals in their country by a small minority during the criminal Apartheid.
- And many more that the rest of the members mentioned.
All this means nothing to the world according to you, because "These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population".
And who is the "great population" that ignores what happens in the world? Probably a bunch of rednecks who give a bad name to USA decent citizens.
But you could send your kids alone to school, the Ten Commandments ruled and we had great Prog, so it was the paradise.
If I was you I would properly read the whole post to properly put this thing into context, just to exercise some fairness into things Besides Ivan said some really stupid things
Which are the stupid things I said?
Every fact I mentioned is historic, it happened, I don't close my eyes, I worry about what happens ariound the world, maybe I'm stupid because I believe in justice for all mankind and that a human life in USA, China, Spain or Argentina is worth the same.
Was I the one who said that the world was a paradise in the 70's, that people on little countries don't count?
I never took things out of the context, I quoted fully your posts, word by word and aberration by aberration.
so focus on your collaborater or rather question his motive
My motive is to ask respect for lives in any part of the world, not only in big or little countries.
If you read my pervious discussions of Politics with intelligent guys like Trotsky you'll see that my political position is closer to USA than to any other country, I have been accused of facist, pro USA, etc, because I criticize what happens in any part of the world, I believe that freedom and democracy in USA is the best thing that could ever happened.
I'm pleased that the State Imperialism of USSR fall as a sand castle, I believe in freedom of all countries to choose their way of live, which was impossible in the 70's with a wall dividing Europe, so I don't have any hidden agenda.
While you were sending your kids to school alone and liing according to the Ten Commandments (For, you and tour closest relatives of course) I studied in a University dominated by radical Communists for 25 years, I was member of a group that brought democracy back to the students in a country where this was dangerous.
After we gained control there was never another strike (Before us, 50% of the years were lost in student strikes) so don't tell me I have hidden motives.
This forum is full of USA citizens and most of them have shown a great sensibility for what happens around the world, some even care for the rights of the animals, but you say that what happens in little places doesn't matter and are only isolated cases.
Your sectarism is so great that you say: "Once God meant the ten commandments"
Maybe for you (as a Christian) me as a Catholic and the Jewish community, but not for Hinduists who live in small countries as India with 700'000,000 believers or Moslems all around the world (There are decent ones who don't believe in violence) or the Budhists, Shintoists, etc.
It's obvious that you believe the world rotates around you, your community, your religion and your country, what happens in the "Little places" has no importance
(for the record the world econemy is based around how well America is doing )
I believe that Japan dominates the World economy (The most powerful banks are from Japan) and the Euro is stronger than the Dollar, so don't be so confident
War is about dollars , America has the wealth and is the only remaining Super Power, so Face reality (no I am not American)
Maybe you're not USA native citizen (But I believe you are, because only a USA resident calls him American when America means more than just USA), but you live in the small comfort of your "Christian" community (Real Christians care for the rest of the world as Jesus Christ taught us) and the rest of little places can go to hell.
but any fool knows that compared to America we are all little countries (just a figure of speech) please wake up !
Don't change your words, that's not what you meant, your words are quoted and your despective comments talk for you:
| The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! |
Only a redneck would speak words like this ones.
|
Iván
-------------
|
Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:13
To quote Trouserpress:
Oh, FFS - put a sock in it.
Both of you.
I for one have reached my quota of righteous indignance and sweeping generalizations for one day, thank you very much.
-------------
Pure Brilliance:
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:16
|
If you are tired Empathy, there are lots of threads you can open and avoid this one.
BTW: Why do you use that nickname "Empathy"
Empathy: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this
If it's obvious doesn't goes with your beliefs?
Iván
-------------
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Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:30
ivan_2068 wrote:
If you are tired Empathy, there are lots of threads you can open and avoid this one.
BTW: Why do you use that nickname "Empathy"
Empathy: the
action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and
vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of
another of either the past or present without having the feelings,
thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit
manner; also : the capacity for this
If it's obvious doesn't goes with your beliefs?
Iván |
Oh, that's "obvious" from my one post, is it?
Quite a large deductive leap you've made there. You appear to do that quite a bit.
I chose that moniker because I feel it's a quality that people lack in general. I try to
exercise it as often as I can, but I'm only human.
In my opinion, if
you had tried to apply some of it yourself when reading the initial
post in this thread, you might have realized prog-o-matic is speaking
from _his_personal_experience (which is all any of us can do,
obviously). Is it possible, maybe, that prog-o-matic wasn't carelessly
and callously dismissing the trials and tribulations of the world
outside of his country of origin in his original post?
I always advocate trying to put oneself in another's shoes before
letting your emotions get the better of you. That is, in fact, the
essence of Empathy.
-------------
Pure Brilliance:
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 16:04
|
Empathy wrote:
Oh, that's "obvious" from my one post, is it?
Quite a large deductive leap you've made there. You appear to do that quite a bit.
I chose that moniker because I feel it's a quality that people lack in general. I try to exercise it as often as I can, but I'm only human.
In my opinion, if you had tried to apply some of it yourself when reading the initial post in this thread, you might have realized prog-o-matic is speaking from _his_personal_experience (which is all any of us can do, obviously). Is it possible, maybe, that prog-o-matic wasn't carelessly and callously dismissing the trials and tribulations of the world outside of his country of origin in his original post?
I always advocate trying to put oneself in another's shoes before letting your emotions get the better of you. That is, in fact, the essence of Empathy.
|
If this is true, good for you Empathy, I'm sick of people putting blindfolds over they eyes to cover from reality.
When I was a student in the University people asked me why I bothered collecting money for Solidarity (The Polish movement), why we helped students of Polland who could not go back to their country, if that was not our problem.
But a lot of other students (Not precisely the radical Communists who hated those who cried for freedom) were with us and two of them provided houses for this students until they got a job.
Problems are around the world, not only in our backyard, but there's lot of blind people who only see terrorism as a threat when it hits their country. It's sad, but for most USA citizens terrorism only started to be a problem after 9/11 (Despite they had terrorism acts by domestic white supremacy movements before), but the reality is that this is a terrible problem that comes from decades if not from centuries.
We didn't lost 2,500 lives, we lost 30,000 lives, but a guy like Prog O Matic who says that this isolated cases that happen in little places don't matter, are offending the memory of those victims who died because terror caught them.
I know what it feels to go to study or to work not knowing if you were going to get back to your house or if an insane terrorist will blow the bus or the street in which you worked (Read about Tarata Street in Perú).
Argentina and Chile are wittness of how people vanished in the air, I may not agree with the beliefs of this people (A good group had leftist orientation) and as a fact I disagree with their political view of reality, but I defend their right to live and in the worst of the cases the right of the families to bury the body of their son, brother or father, for whom they are searching after 30 years.
ÚSA is considered the craddle of real democracy, one citizen, one vote, but other countries like France helped them to gain their freedom, if people from USA want to be fair,lets start to worry for what happens around the world, and not answering with insults against people who had the bad luck to die in a third world country or even in Germany, Italy and Spain.
My first post just pointed this was a mistake, that the 70's were not a paradise for mosrt of us,
ivan_2068 wrote:
prog o matic wrote:
Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.
Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews,
Sorry to say this, but the world was always the same, probably not for USA citizens who lived in a bubble of false seccurity, they felt untocheable because since Pearl Harbor they were never attacked in their land, but in the rest of the world was exactly the same.
Black September kidnapped and killed the Israel Olimpic team in 1972.
13 November 1972 in Paris the Syrian journalist Khodr Kamon (36) killed , he was working on an article about Black September. 8 December Dr Mahmoud Hamshari (34) the PLO representant in Paris blown up by the Mossad.
The Baader Meinhoff and The Red Brigades kept Germany and Italy in terror during all the 70's.
The problems between England and the IRA or Spain and the ETA already existed in the 70's.
or taking a trip in an airoplane only to find terrorists have taken control and are going to give you a grand tour of the world trade centre !
The rate of highjacked airplanes taken to Cuba, African countries or USSR was much higher than today if I'm not wrong.
27 June 1976 was an Air France plane highjacked by members of Haddad's group and some caucasians, the plane landed in Entebbe, Uganda. Amin the leader of Uganda worked with the terrorists and an Israeli commando freed the hostages at night and killed the terrorists. The killed were PLO members but also were killed the RAF members Gabriele Krocher Tiedemann an Wilfried Bose.
The worlds not the same I`m not the same you are not the same and the World is not the same !
The problem is that USA citizens don't realize there's violence unless it knocks their door, but the world was as violent and even worst than today, because we all lived in terror that the cold war between USA and USSR became nuclear hot in any moment.
I believe prog being a advanced form of expression (art) reflects social values for its periodic audience that in which its aimed, it is little wonder modern prog can sometimes be bleak and a tad depressing with all that is going on ! its our way of accepting the state of the world and what its going through at this point of time. The 70`s offered us such great fantasy elements and positive thoughts, some day soon when the craziness stops we may just return to those aspects in prog but for now theres some pain to work through and modern prog is just reflecting that ! 
Fantasy world? Go ask the people who lived in Chile, Argentina, Italy, Germany, Israel, Germany, all Middle East, Cambodia (AKA The Democratic Kampuchea, where 50% of the citizens were killed with plastic bagas to save bullets) if it was a fantasy era. 
The fantasy era died with the hippies when they crashed with reality in the early 70's.
Iván
"there is nothing to fear but fear itself" or is there ? 
Yes there is something to fear, and that is blindness, caring only for what happens inside the border of our countries is more frightening than anything.
|
BTW: There was great Prog in the 70's, 90's and 2000's.
|
There was no ofence or attack, just pointing some facts, and Prog o matic could have answered saying, yes I'm sorry, this was a mistake, and I would say OK buddy, it was a mistake but no problem. But instead he spitted in our faces saying:
Progomatic wrote:
|
Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was. The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population, Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate !
|
His first post could be a mistake, but his reply is offensive, Then I answered him with more strength.
Iván
-------------
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Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 16:38
Ah, I missed these comments:
Progomatic wrote:
|
Another
thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not
having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was.
The sad fact of life is if America is cool the
world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool
then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population, Both
Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the
better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in
the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much
ends this debate !
|
His first post could be a mistake, but his reply is offensive, Then I answered him with more strength.
Iván [/QUOTE]
The second bolded comment is pretty shameful, IMO.
Now I understand your response a little better.
I guess my point is that we'd be better off not making sweeping
generalizations based on someone's country of origin. I'm personally
weary of being assumed to be a "redneck, ignorant American". Anyone who
actually knows me, knows I'm not.
-------------
Pure Brilliance:
|
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 17:32
Kid-A wrote:
My Mum said that the 70's were bleak times. (in the UK)
In the early 70's for a while, the power was cut out every night at ten! due to a long strike. Thats hardly a happy country.
|
Yep I remember fumbling around many a time for a candle.Seems a long time ago now...well it is really
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 19:53
|
I`m pleased I put Ivan through so much trouble in doing his research (though he still distorts what the original post was intended to be about ... my observation of modern prog (call it a social metaphysical observation if you will) though clearly ivan isn`t a fan of super string theory
Time well spent Ivan ... you proved nothing and impressed nobody, well done !
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Posted By: Bern
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 20:03
OK I will actually answer to the original question:
One of the major reason why modern prog doesn't suck is that we can actually see the bands live while in their prime NOW.
Band from the 70s are great and some of them are still touring but it's just not the same as seeing a modern band who are still in their prime. (ok maybe it's not a good answer to the question but I guess it's valuable)
And it isn't like modern prog was totally uninteresting. Everybody should give a chance to modern music. Classics are classics but there is something great going on right now.
-Sorry for my poor english
-------------
 
RIP in bossa nova heaven.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 21:21
prog o matic wrote:
I`m pleased I put Ivan through so much trouble in doing his research (though he still distorts what the original post was intended to be about ... my observation of modern prog (call it a social metaphysical observation if you will) though clearly ivan isn`t a fan of super string theory
Time well spent Ivan ... you proved nothing and impressed nobody, well done !
|
In first place I did no research, because the difference between you and me is that I care for the history of the world, not only for what happens in my backyard. I was a teenager in the 70's but still I had interest for what happened around the world, even when there was no CNN.
Probably rednecks as you don't know what happens outside your county and don't even care about it, but some people is different, there's something called newspapers that we read every morning and we are able to remember this things, but you probably buy them to read the comic strips and the sports.
And in second place, this last post completes your picture, your low self estime makes you think in terms of impressing the rest of the world, I don't need that, I know who I am, people knows me here and knows what i'm talking about, and if they don't get it, well, it's their problem.
But I'm 100% sure that most progheads have enough sensibility to care for what happens in the world, even in those little places that you probably never heard about.
Iván
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 21:38
ivan_2068 wrote:
prog o matic wrote:
I`m pleased I put Ivan through so much trouble in doing his research (though he still distorts what the original post was intended to be about ... my observation of modern prog (call it a social metaphysical observation if you will) though clearly ivan isn`t a fan of super string theory
Time well spent Ivan ... you proved nothing and impressed nobody, well done !
|
In first place I did no research, because the difference between you and me is that I care for the history of the world, not only for what happens in my backyard. I was a teenager in the 70's but still I had interest for what happened around the world, even when there was no CNN.
Probably rednecks as you don't know what happens outside your county and don't even care about it, but some people is different, there's something called newspapers that we read every morning and we are able to remember this things, but you probably buy them to read the comic strips and the sports.
And in second place, this last post completes your picture, your low self estime makes you think in terms of impressing the rest of the world, I don't need that, I know who I am, people knows me here and knows what i'm talking about, and if they don't get it, well, it's their problem.
But I'm 100% sure that most progheads have enough sensibility to care for what happens in the world, even in those little places that you probably never heard about.
Iván |
You are a funny little man, now crawl back in that little hole you live in and leave me alone
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 21:48
|
prog o matic wrote:
You are a funny little man, now crawl back in that little hole you live in and leave me alone |
You have described yourself in this two lines.
At least this funny little man knows what happens in little places like Germany Italy, Spain, Argentina, India, etc.
BTW: I just notice you have an obsession with little things (little places, little man, little holes), I wonder what else beside your brain is so little to make you insecure.
Iván
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 21:56
So....that prog music eh? Pretty good, right?
-------------
http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Posted By: andYouandI45
Date Posted: February 15 2006 at 22:32
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Nice job bringing God into it.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:19
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OK I`m very sorry for everything I said Ivan , I feel so badly for my crime ,they should punish me , I can`t believe how stupid and ignorant and the other nasty words you called me I have been ! and I have found a new name to call God ,not the Creator, Not the Unified Field not even Lord, I shall call my God "Ivan" from now on, since he knows everything and is so logical , honest , and worldly , I`m sorry "Ivan" ... all hail Ivan !!!
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:34
|
I'll do the best thing that can be done with a troll....ignore him.
Iván
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:39
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<< drum teacher 30 years (jazz) theory
<< Piano (20 years)
<< theology and philosophy degree and I`m a chemist
In response to Ivan's quickly deleted attempts at big noting himself (though I do out do him in most qualifications)
|
Posted By: erlenst
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:41
prog o matic wrote:
I`m pleased I put Ivan through so much
trouble in doing his research (though he still distorts what the
original post was intended to be about ... my observation of
modern prog (call it a social metaphysical observation if you
will) though clearly ivan isn`t a fan of super string theory
Time well spent Ivan ... you proved nothing and impressed nobody, well done ! |
Actually, he proved that everything you said was wrong, and I am quite
impressed to be honest. You are making an ass out of yourself by
appearing to be offended in that way. It seems as though you haven't
used your "depth and insight" one little bit about all the things Ivan
has just pointed out.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:46
|
I am sorry to hear you feel that way, though I believe it is only to suck up to a collaborater for hope of a promotion on this site , I can see your motive and thats why you sold out your logic so cheaply, just stay in with the in crowd , just like back in high school
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:57
|
Erlenst, don't feed the troll, it was my mistake.
Nobody who has studied Philosophy and Theology can consider that live of people outside a determined country has a lower value.
Let their words describe them, and this guy has done a good job describing himself.
Iván
BTW: Erlenst knows that no Collaborator (the word is not written collaborater) can give a promotion in this place only the owners. And it will be funny seing someone licking a$$es for a promotion that only means you have to work more and for free
-------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 02:03
ivan_2068 wrote:
Erlenst, don't feed the troll, it was my mistake.
Nobody who has studied Philosophy and Theology can consider that live of people outside a determined country has a lower value.
Let their words describe them, and this guy has done a good job describing himself.
Iván
BTW: Erlenst knows that no Collaborator can give a promotion in this place only the owners. And it will be funny seing someone licking a$$es for a promotion that only means you have to work more and for free |
you p1ssed me off Ivan , big time with your response, you turned it into a post about you , when infarct it was a post about humanity (in general) you twisted things , turned them around , you became a journalist looking for a scoop , you prostituted principle and integrity just to suite your own selfish perspective, simply put you p1ssed me off (and you offended America)
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 02:10
|
I offended America 
Please. somebody rational (this excludes the troll) quote me to see if this is true.
I only expressed sympathy for The united States of Amerivca and said 9/11 was not a problem of USA but a problem of all the world.
How can you have studied Philosophy, Theology. Chemistry and taught Jazz for 30 years if you don't even know to read.
Iván
BTW:
<< drum teacher 30 years (jazz) theory
<< Piano (20 years)
<< theology and philosophy degree and I`m a chemist
This means you have 80 years How can you work as a chemist, Piano and Drum teacher at the same time, plus secveral years of Philosophy and Teology and still have time to post several times a day in the forum
Funny
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 02:20
|
hard to find anything to like about this goofball, he has got issues in the mind I think
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 02:28
|
prog o matic wrote:
hard to find anything to like about this goofball, he has got issues in the mind I think |
Find it, quote me offending USA, you accused me, I dare you.
If you accuse without any argument you're nothing but a LIAR, show everybody who you are!!!!!
Anybody who know me for three years in this site knows that I'm incapable of attacking anybody for his place of birth, beliefs, disbeliefs, political or sexual orientation.
I have more than 3,500 posts and never attacked anybody for this reasons.
Iván
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|
Posted By: erlenst
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:29
prog o matic wrote:
I am sorry to hear you feel that way, though I
believe it is only to suck up to a collaborater for hope of a promotion
on this site , I can see your motive and thats why you sold out your
logic so cheaply, just stay in with the in crowd , just like back in
high school |
Hehe, well I guess this proved to everybody what kind of a person you
really are. Sorry I interfered, I guess that was a bad idea.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:07
ivan_2068 wrote:
prog o matic wrote:
hard to find anything to like about this goofball, he has got issues in the mind I think |
Find it, quote me offending USA, you accused me, I dare you.
If you accuse without any argument you're nothing but a LIAR, show everybody who you are!!!!!
Anybody who know me for three years in this site knows that I'm incapable of attacking anybody for his place of birth, beliefs, disbeliefs, political or sexual orientation.
I have more than 3,500 posts and never attacked anybody for this reasons.
Iván |
Update !!! .... Ivan edited out all his offensive remarks about America before I could get the chance to reveal what lies behind His mask (like I didn`t expect that upon his generous invite in the first place) I rest my case knowing at least I have maintained my integrity
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:32
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Hmmmm lets just say its looking like from what I have just read Ivan has some explaining to do because his integrity is at stake, and thats a shame because I thought higher of him than that
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Posted By: FragileDT
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:51
prog o matic wrote:
ivan_2068 wrote:
prog o matic wrote:
hard to find anything to like about this goofball,
he has got issues in the mind I think |
Find it, quote me offending USA, you accused me, I dare you.
If you accuse without any argument you're nothing but a LIAR, show
everybody who you are!!!!!
Anybody who know me for three years in this site knows that I'm
incapable of attacking anybody for his place of birth, beliefs, disbeliefs,
political or sexual orientation.
I have more than 3,500 posts and never attacked anybody for this
reasons.
Iván |
Update !!! .... Ivan edited out all his offensive
remarks about America before I could get the chance to reveal what lies
behind His mask (like I didn`t expect that upon his generous invite in the
first place) I rest my case knowing at least I have maintained my
integrity |
What are you talking about? I've had many conversations with Ivan on this
board and read many of his convo's on various issues and I KNOW for a
fact that what you are saying is not true.
And what holds offensive in your eyes may not be offensive in anothers.
You might be a big Bush fan and love the administration and how they are
running the US while I think we are going to be facing an economic
collapse in the near future (backed by reasons I don't feel like getting
into.) That may offend you but you know what, it's someone's insight.
One thing you should remember is, you can't have an opinion or point of
view WITHOUT knowing about the topic you are discussing. For example,
I can't argue about reasoning behind an economic collapse if I DON'T
know about it. That's all you're doing.
I'm sorry I tried not to get involved but reading the conversation got me
angry enough to post.
-------------
One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity
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Posted By: FragileDT
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:52
s1ipp3ry wrote:
Hmmmm lets just say its looking like from what I have just read Ivan has
some explaining to do because his integrity is at stake, and thats a shame
because I thought higher of him than that
|
What are you talking about? I've read both sides of this conversation and I
can't imagine why you would think this.
-------------
One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity
|
Posted By: erlenst
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 11:25
prog o matic wrote:
ivan_2068 wrote:
prog o matic wrote:
hard to find anything to like about this goofball, he has got issues in the mind I think |
Find it, quote me offending USA, you accused me, I dare you.
If you accuse without any argument you're nothing but a LIAR, show everybody who you are!!!!!
Anybody who know me for three years in this site knows that I'm
incapable of attacking anybody for his place of birth, beliefs,
disbeliefs, political or sexual orientation.
I have more than 3,500 posts and never attacked anybody for this reasons.
Iván |
Update !!! .... Ivan edited out all his
offensive remarks about America before I could get the chance
to reveal what lies behind His mask (like I didn`t expect
that upon his generous invite in the first place) I rest my
case knowing at least I have maintained my integrity
|
OH COME ON !!! How can you be so pathetic ??
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Posted By: erlenst
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 11:26
s1ipp3ry wrote:
Hmmmm lets just say its looking like from what I have just read
Ivan has some explaining to do because his integrity is at stake, and
thats a shame because I thought higher of him than that
|
??
Does anbody in here actually READ HIS POSTS ???
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 11:57
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s1ipp3ry wrote:
Hmmmm lets just say its looking like from what I have just read Ivan has some explaining to do because his integrity is at stake, and thats a shame because I thought higher of him than that |
Look Slippery I have nothing to explain because my more than 3,500 posts speak for me,´people know me here and I never ecver offended any nation, much less USA which I defend always because I believe in their polititical system.
But, lets see, before accepting the fact that I insulted USA read my posts quoted by other members:
s1ipp3ry
Senior Member
Joined: October 18 2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 522 |
| Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:25 | IP Logged |
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=1863069&TPN=3"> |
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ivan_2068 wrote:
prog o matic wrote:
|
Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.
Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews,
Sorry to say this, but the world was always the same, probably not for USA citizens because they lived in a bubble of seccurity, they felt invulnerable because since =Pearl Harbor they were never attacked again in their land, but in the rest of the world was exactly the same.
Black September kidnapped and killed the Israel Olimpic team in 1972. 13 November 1972 was in Paris the Syrian journalist Khodr Kamon (36) killed by arabs, he was working on an article about Black September. 8 December was Dr Mahmoud Hamshari (34) the PLO representant in Paris blown up by the Mossad.
The Baader Meinhoff and The Red Brigades kept Germany and Italy in terror during all the 70's.
or taking a trip in an airoplane only to find terrorists have taken control and are going to give you a grand tour of the world trade centre !
The rate of highjacked airplanes taken to Cuba, African countries or USSR was much higher than today if I'm not wrong.
27 June 1976 was an Air France plane highjacked by members of Haddad's group and some caucasians, the plane landed in Entebbe, Uganda. Amin the leader of Uganda worked with the terrorists and an Israeli commando freed the hostages at night and killed the terrorists. The killed were PLO members but also were killed the RAF members Gabriele Krocher Tiedemann an Wilfried Bose.
The worlds not the same I`m not the same you are not the same and the World is not the same !
The problem is that USA citizens don't realize there's violence unless it knocks their door, but the world was as violent and even worst than today, because we all lived in terror that the cold war between USA and USSR became nuclear hot in any moment.
I believe prog being a advanced form of expression (art) reflects social values for its periodic audience that in which its aimed, it is little wonder modern prog can sometimes be bleak and a tad depressing with all that is going on ! its our way of accepting the state of the world and what its going through at this point of time. The 70`s offered us such great fantasy elements and positive thoughts, some day soon when the craziness stops we may just return to those aspects in prog but for now theres some pain to work through and modern prog is just reflecting that !
Fantasy world? Go ask the people who lived in Chile, Argentina, Italy, Germany, Israel, Germany, all Middle East if it was a fantasy era.
The fantasy era died with the hippies when they crashed with reality in the early 70's.
Iván
"there is nothing to fear but fear itself" or is there ?
Yes there is something to fear, and that is blindness, caring only for what happens inside the border of our countries is more frightening than anything.
| | |
BTW: There wasgreat Prog in the 70's, 90's and 2000's. | | | But Prog o matic doesn`t say where he is from in his profile ? why do you think he is from America ? isn`t that a bit of a stab in the dark ivan ? 
|
THIS IS MY FIRST POT QUOTED BY YOU SLIPPERY....IS THERE ANY INSUKLT OR OFFENCE TO USA?
____________________________________________________________ __________________
| Posted: February 15 2006 at 02:01 | IP Logged |
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=1863078&TPN=3"> |
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prog o matic wrote:
|
Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was.
I have the biggest simpathy for USA, anybody who knows me here is concious I'm anti communist and like the American way of live.
But for God's sake, what a bloody arrogants are some of you!!!!
Sept 11 was significant for you, and it affected all of us because we saw with horror what happened, but honestly The World Trade Centre as repulsive and criminal as it is, has the same significance for the rest of the world as what happens in Perú, England, Israel or Japan.
But you closed your eyes when Pol Pot killed 50% of the population of Cambodia, when Pinochet killed people in Chile, when Shinning Path killed 30,000 Peruvian citizens, when the Baader Meinhoff lept Germany in terror, when The Red Brigades kept Germany in terror, ehen IRA and ETA kept ENGLAND (YES ENGLAND) and Spain in constant alert.
When all an Olimpic team is killed in Munich and the rest of the world keeps playing their sports as if nothing had happened.
Yes, we live in little places, but a live of a USA citizen is as valuable as the life of any person in the world, if you don't understand that, you don't understand the legacy of democracy and respect of human rights in USA Constitution and in the rest of the coivilized world.
Honestly I don't know if yopu're arrogant or just ignorant.
The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population,
Now I don't believe you're ignorant, you're just stupid.
Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate !
I don't believe GB was happy in the 70's with the Irish crisis and the IRA, but it's a waste of time talking with such an arrogant moron.
| | |
EDIT: Another prove of your total lack of knowledge is claimingthat the best Prog came in the 70's from USA.
USA except Kansas and a couple of good bands had nothing relevant, the best Prog vcame from UK, Italy, Netherlands, Germany etc.
Iván
THIS IS MY SECOND POST QUOTED BY PROG O MATIC, SO IT'S IMPOSSIBLE I COULD CHANGE IT
____________________________________________________________ ____
erlenst
Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Denmark
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 222 |
| Posted: February 15 2006 at 06:25 | IP Logged |
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=1863198&TPN=3"> |
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ivan_2068 wrote:
|
Littlewashu5, what happened in USA on 9/11 was not a problem of USA only, it was a problem of all the world, because one life is worth anywhere and terror must be rejected.
But what happened in Perú (30,000 victims of terrorism), Chile (You know better than me), Cambodia, Munich Olympic Village, Germany, Italy, Israel, Prague (After the famous spring), Entebbe, Vietnam, etc is also important for the rest of the world.
Idiots like prog o matic who say that what happens in little countries is not important, are an offense for all civilization.
Guys who say I live well, so I don't care for the rest of the world are leeches, even if they are from USA, Perú, Japan, Norway or Israel, but I seen few people as arrogant, empty minded and despective as prog o matic.
Iván
| | |
Thank you Ivan for pointing out all these things !
|
THIS IS MY THIRD POST QUOTED BY ERLENST, WHICH I CAN'T CHANGE, IT'S ALSO QUOTED BY A COUPLE OF OTHER MEMBERS, AND THE ONLY THING I DO IS TO TALK THE TRUTH, THE ATTACK AGAINST USA WAS AN ATTACK AGAINST THE WORLD
____________________________________________________________ _
prog o matic wrote:
| Come on I was very much baited (by Ivan) into making a few remarks (many of which he claims I said are untrue so hes not being honest and I make no apoligy for that remark .. just scroll back to verify )
I knew you wouldn't apologize, because you believe you're the center of the world, and again I live from making investigations and using deduction to solve judicial cases, your phrases clearly show you live in USA, you're a Christian (Probably reborn) and the only things that affect you are those that happen in your lawn.
All people are equal in my Book no counrty is more important to the next ,
Are you sure?
Prog o matic wrote:
Quote:
| These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population | | |
So...your own words prove that according to you, "little places" i was taking about don't matter for the big population:
- Almost 2'000,000 humans killed in Cambodia with plastic bags in the head to save bullets.
- 30'000 humble peasents killed in Perú by Shinning Path, who started their offensive in the late 70's.
- Bolivia changing Governments even three times in a month with victims in each case.
- Not precised thousand of persons killed in Chile by Pinochet's Government
- I can't remember how many dissapeared citizens in Argentina by the Military Government
- People from Ireland and England killing themselves every day during the 70's
- People from Israel being attacked by terrorists daily or kidnapped and taken to Entebe where Idi Amin helped the terrorists.
- A whole Olympic team massacred in Germany by Black September while the world kept playing, the world didn't even had the decency to close the olympic games.
- American and VC soldiers and civilians killed each day in war that didn't ended.
- Italian civilians and even Aldo Moro killed by explosions created by the Red Brigades or kidnapped and killed.
- Baader Meinhoff, one of the most bloody terrorist movements kept Germany in terror.
- Millions of citizens in Romania, Hungary, Poland and behind the iron curtain living without freedom.
- Millions of Jewish and disidents sent to the gulags and Siberia only for having disagreements with the Politboureau
- Millions killed by Idi Amin Dada who according to some people practiced canibalism (Not proved though)
- The whole world threatened by a nuclear holocaust because of the cold war.
- Afghanistan invaded by the Soviet Union (But in those days USA supported Afghanistan).
- Thousand of cubans escaping from death in rafts to Miami.
- Dictators as Stroesnner and Somoza still in the Government of their countries, being the alternative communist revolutions supoported by Cuba and USSR (In other words they had to jump from a boilling pot of water to hot pan full of oil).
- Millions of black South Africans were treated worst than animals in their country by a small minority during the criminal Apartheid.
- And many more that the rest of the members mentioned.
All this means nothing to the world according to you, because "These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population".
And who is the "great population" that ignores what happens in the world? Probably a bunch of rednecks who give a bad name to USA decent citizens.
But you could send your kids alone to school, the Ten Commandments ruled and we had great Prog, so it was the paradise.
If I was you I would properly read the whole post to properly put this thing into context, just to exercise some fairness into things Besides Ivan said some really stupid things
Which are the stupid things I said?
Every fact I mentioned is historic, it happened, I don't close my eyes, I worry about what happens ariound the world, maybe I'm stupid because I believe in justice for all mankind and that a human life in USA, China, Spain or Argentina is worth the same.
Was I the one who said that the world was a paradise in the 70's, that people on little countries don't count?
I never took things out of the context, I quoted fully your posts, word by word and aberration by aberration.
so focus on your collaborater or rather question his motive
My motive is to ask respect for lives in any part of the world, not only in big or little countries.
If you read my pervious discussions of Politics with intelligent guys like Trotsky you'll see that my political position is closer to USA than to any other country, I have been accused of facist, pro USA, etc, because I criticize what happens in any part of the world, I believe that freedom and democracy in USA is the best thing that could ever happened.
I'm pleased that the State Imperialism of USSR fall as a sand castle, I believe in freedom of all countries to choose their way of live, which was impossible in the 70's with a wall dividing Europe, so I don't have any hidden agenda.
While you were sending your kids to school alone and liing according to the Ten Commandments (For, you and tour closest relatives of course) I studied in a University dominated by radical Communists for 25 years, I was member of a group that brought democracy back to the students in a country where this was dangerous.
After we gained control there was never another strike (Before us, 50% of the years were lost in student strikes) so don't tell me I have hidden motives.
This forum is full of USA citizens and most of them have shown a great sensibility for what happens around the world, some even care for the rights of the animals, but you say that what happens in little places doesn't matter and are only isolated cases.
Your sectarism is so great that you say: "Once God meant the ten commandments"
Maybe for you (as a Christian) me as a Catholic and the Jewish community, but not for Hinduists who live in small countries as India with 700'000,000 believers or Moslems all around the world (There are decent ones who don't believe in violence) or the Budhists, Shintoists, etc.
It's obvious that you believe the world rotates around you, your community, your religion and your country, what happens in the "Little places" has no importance
(for the record the world econemy is based around how well America is doing )
I believe that Japan dominates the World economy (The most powerful banks are from Japan) and the Euro is stronger than the Dollar, so don't be so confident
War is about dollars , America has the wealth and is the only remaining Super Power, so Face reality (no I am not American)
Maybe you're not USA native citizen (But I believe you are, because only a USA resident calls him American when America means more than just USA), but you live in the small comfort of your "Christian" community (Real Christians care for the rest of the world as Jesus Christ taught us) and the rest of little places can go to hell.
but any fool knows that compared to America we are all little countries (just a figure of speech) please wake up !
Don't change your words, that's not what you meant, your words are quoted and your despective comments talk for you:
Quote:
| The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! | | |
Only a redneck would speak words like this ones.
| | |
Iván
TGHIS IS MY FOURTH POST WITHOUT EDITIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now Slíppery WHERE CAN YOU FIND A SINGLE OFFENCE AGAINST USA??????
There's even one of my posts QUOTED BY YOU SLIPP3RY, and you know I can't change what is already quoted.
Before you speak, read, even you quoted my posts, I only said good things about USA.
A big piece of crap as Prog O Matic can't give a single prove that I even dared to attack USA but you believe him, read my posts, read my background, I love to debate, I debated wityh a lot of members, but everybody hete is wittnessthat I never offended anybody.
Thanks Fragile DT and the other guys for the support.
Now I hope the dministrators do something against this guy PROG O MATIC.
And you SLIPP3RY BETTER READ BEFFORE MAKING ECHO ABOUT STUPID ACCUSATIONS BY THIS WORM CALLED PROG O MATIC
Iván
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: February 16 2006 at 11:58
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Thank you prog o matic for demonstrating how not to conduct a civil argument.
This thread will be closed and a warning issued.
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