The Pope has died

Reed Lover wrote: Well,I am oh so very sorry if a few people on here are very upset,but let us not forget one thing.This man has been the single most formidable and impenetrable barrier to reducing the ravenous advance of AIDS across Africa.Simple fact-no-one here cries or takes offence for these nameless millions who cant use or are not instructed to use condoms that would certainly go towards arresting the ravages of this terrible disease. Fragile,Shrinkingviolet,I am sorry if you are offended but dont you see? Use of the condom is the singlemost practical effective way of defending against AIDS and this is denied to millions of African Catholics,because the Pope confirms it is a sin.Not God but the Pope.

Reed, don't you realise that for many people his death is a highly painful matter? I'm sure Fragile and Shrinkingviolet realise what's going on in Africa and what the place of the Catholic Church in it really is. 

Besides, the Pope's death won't solve anything. I wouldn't be surprised if the more conservative wing, led by people like Cardinal Ratzinger took over and piled on the misinformation.

If the Pope's death also meant the death of the catholic church,the greatest force for evil in the history of mankind,the matter would be significant,but since it doesn't,it's of no great importance.

Pixel Pirate wrote: If the Pope's death also meant the death of the catholic church,the greatest force for evil in the history of mankind,the matter would be significant,but since it doesn't,it's of no great importance.

Often a force of evil but just as often a force of good. For every Torquemada who, acting according to his faith, tortured people, there is a Catholic who, acting according to his faith saved Jews during the Holocaust.

Reed Lover wrote: He's not dead yet anyway,is he? Lets save the brickbats for another day...

You know this is like Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Bring out your dead"

Here's one for ya"

"But I ain't dead yet"

"Well your almost Dead"

Unfortunately we dont all share the same beliefs and maybe we have been quick to "gloat" when others feel exactly the opposite.

Fragile is a very decent man and if feelings have been hurt then we should respect this and not continue to make idle sport or have ideological debates.

gdub411 wrote: Reed Lover wrote: Unfortunately we dont all share the same beliefs and maybe we have been quick to "gloat" when others feel exactly the opposite. Fragile is a very decent man and if feelings have been hurt then we should respect this and not continue to make idle sport or have ideological debates. ..how dissapointing

Your a bad man Gdub.

Fragile:

You cite Matthew 16:18: "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."  However, you quote it out of context.  Just prior to this, Jesus has asked His disciples "Who do men say that I am?"  In this regard, let's put Matthew 16:18 in context:

"So they said, 'Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.'  He said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?'  Simon Peter answered and said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' Jesus answered and said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, by My Father who is in heaven.  And I also say unto you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.'"  Matthew 16:14-18.

Thus, taken in context, Jesus was not suggesting that it was on Peter himself - or on his ancestors, etc. - that He would "build His church," but upon the level of faith that Peter showed in making the statement, in being receptive and obedient to God's Will as it was "revealed" to him.  Jesus was making a statement about Peter's faith - not about Peter.

However, even were that not the case, I fail to see how Jesus' statement at Matthew 16:18 leads from Peter to "mainstream, heirarchical, organized" religion, much less a papacy, much less the "infallibility" of the Pope.  That is all a construct created after Peter - and all the other apostles and original disciples - was long dead.  In fact, nothing in Peter's two epistles would lead one to such a conclusion.  Indeed, Peter himself seems to deny the possibility of this conclusion when he says:

"You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.  Therefore is it also contained in the Scripture, 'Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.'  Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, 'The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.'  And 'A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.'  They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed."  1 Peter 2:5-8 (emphases mine)

Thus, Peter himself understood Jesus' comparison of Himself to the "chief cornerstone" and a "stumbling block" in a figurative, not literal, way, and understood that the "church" was not a building or an "organized" community, but all those who believe in Christ as crucified and risen: "living stones," not real ones.  There is nothing to suggest that Peter was seeking to "organize" the "church," much less to create a "formal" structure with a single person (i.e., "Pope") at the top of that structure.

If you can show me Scripture that supports your position, I am more than happy to be enlightened and proven wrong in this interpretation.  However, I have never read a single word of Scripture that would support the creation of a "papacy," much less the more-than-human "holiness" of the Pope himself.

Peace.

Easy Livin wrote: Garion, GDUB, Your childish lack of respect for members of the forum who find the curent situation upsetting, does you no credit. Even if your views differ from their's (as they clearly do), is it too much to ask you to remain civil and considerate? Just now, we should also think of those in Indonesia (country of our esteemed member Gatot), who suffered as a result of the recent earthquake.

They were only joking, winding people up, Easy Livin, they PMd me saying so.