QM: Does Time exist? |
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wiz_d_kidd
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 13 2018 Location: EllicottCityMD Status: Offline Points: 1422 |
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If each page represents a snapshot of the state of the universe, and if the whole book already exists, then the future state of the universe is predetermined -- hence, there is no free will. Our fate is already determined, as documented in "the book". |
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“I don’t like country music, but I don’t mean to denigrate those who do. And for those who like country music, denigrate means to ‘put down.'” – Bob Newhart
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CosmicVibration
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What if God didn't create the universe, but rather an infinitesimal part of his infinite being became the universe? BTW, an infinitesimal part of infinity is still infinity.
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CosmicVibration
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Why can't there be both, destiny/fate and freewill? An analogy as to your soul's destiny is to go down a particular hallway, your journey will be from point A to point B. How you go down that hallway is up to your free will. You can walk, skip, run, crawl, open every single door or not. If you have OCD you will tap on every single door Another example as destiny would be a trip from NY to California. That trip you must take as your destiny, the way you go about it is your free will. Drive, fly, walk, run, bicycle, make several or no stops along the way.
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14004 |
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I don't pretend to know the truth or to have the answers. Anywaay: Book and Freewill...the way the pages are aligned has surely some constraints. Teleport is possible in quantum mechanics, but non of us can be instantaneously teleported somewhere else. Consequently the page sequence can't be completely randomic. Partially randomic,maybe. If i take a page, I guess there are many possible adjacent pages. This is where the free will can be. All the possibilities are in the book, but not all of them become actual. About god... The idea of god coincident with the Universe is more or less the idea of Spinoza and partially of Einstein. But Can god/universe be conscious of what's inside? We are not conscious of the chemical reactions that happen inside our cells even if they are part of our bodies. That god is likely indifferent to what happens inside |
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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progaardvark
Collaborator Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 50813 |
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Yes, that's the same Hoffmann. It's a very interesting take on reality.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
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progaardvark
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I believe the Planck length is the shortest possible distance. If my memory is correct, attempts to measure smaller distances require such an amount of energy that a black hole would form. It sounds like the laws of physics break down beyond such barriers (or are inapplicable). I think the assertions you make may be correct. I wish I had paid more attention in the one physics course I took dealing with QM, but that was more than 30 years ago and never dealt with topics like this.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15217 |
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If time didn't exist how could there be time signatures in music? |
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Hrychu
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong |
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Lewian
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I'd think that the topic of subjective perception of time is more or less strictly separated from the treatment of time in physics, and that the latter has little to say about the former. But then I'm not a physicist and not sure about this, so it's an interesting thing to bring up. In other news, I'd think that anything that appears is human language (as "time" does but also things the "existence" of which seems even less controversial) can be legitimately seen as a human construct, and this makes the concept of "existence" problematic, as checking existence of anything (meant as independent of human perception) would require to go beyond language and beyond human perception actually.
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14004 |
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We have used the metaphor of turning the pages of a book. In that case it may be a sheet, instead.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15217 |
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Time exists so that we don't experience everything simultaneously. Whatever the quantum mechanics may be is quite irrelevant to what we perceive. Even if the universe exists as a nonlinear temporal singularity like a CD sitting on a shelf, we as humans and our reality transmitter apparatuses (aka the brain) experience time as if we have our brains set to the "play" mode of a CD player. There have been rare cases where people experience temporal anomalies thus exposing the unified nature of space and time so it seems the question here is what is time on a mechanical level as opposed to what it means to be a sentient conscious being perceiving reality in the 3D construct. Those who experience clairvoyance seem to have access to timelines beyond the present moment. How this occurs is a mystery yet gives insight into the illusion of what time is however i think it's fair to say that it does exist without having any explanation of what its true nature is. |
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octopus-4
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What we experience is not how the universe really behaves. Of course, even if time doesn't exist, I can be late at work because this is how I perceive it. Understanding how it really works is the main purpose of every science. You can't directly perceive the time dilation because it's too little, but your mobile phone does. Think to the holographic principle: if we are really projections and the universe is the bi-dimensional internal surface of a sphere, this won't prevent me from crashing on a 3d wall. The omnipresent pages of the book won't make me back to life after my death, but knowing how they are shaoed may possibly give us the capacity of travelling in time or to alternate realities (well this is too SciFi, but it's just to make an example). What if time exists but is not linear? Somebody, maybe Kip Thorne but I'm not sure, has made some calculus about the possibility of life in universes with different numbers of dimensions and realized that an universe with two time dimensions can't allow chemistry. Kurt Godel has examined the possibility of time travels and has found a solution of the Relativity equations that allows it, but it's possible only in an Universe shaped as a cylinder rotating on its asses at a certain speed, so it's nothing more than a mathematical construct. Barbour's universe (let's call it this way) comprehends all the possible permutations of 10^80 protons inside the volume of the actual Universe. It's a very big number but it's not infinite. If the universe is infinite, an exact copy of us exists at approx 10^10^113 meters from here, and infinite copies are preset. Infinity is a bad thing in an actual universe: it means that there are part of it where Mickey Mouse and Cthulhu are real. But your metaphor of the "play" mode is very consistent and doesn't contradict the possibility of a Barbour's universe. I too have experienced something like temporal anomalies, but I don't trust on my perceptions. They were likely an illusion created but my brain trying to explain something apparently weird, the same thing that brain does when we catch external stimulations while we dream.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15217 |
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Sometimes it's easy to engage in mental masturbation and overlook the obvious. Time exists BECAUSE we perceive it. Babies become adults not the other way around. The very fabric of our 3D construct is dependent on the dimension of time as an integral element. Perhaps it's all a holographic illusion but still valid in our bubble of reality. |
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14004 |
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What we are saying is not too different. But the only physical phenomenon which is aligned with the time arrow is enthropy. The probabliity of a seeing broken egg reverts the process and becomes integer again is extremely low but is more than zero. So can we say that experiencing time is experiencing enthropy?
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Floydoid
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 02 2007 Location: Planet Prog Status: Offline Points: 1485 |
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^entropy
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'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.'
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14004 |
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^thanks
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15217 |
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Um, no! Entropy has specific scientific definitions. It can be a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work. It can be a measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. It can mean the tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve towards a state of inert uniformity. Or it can mean what most know it as and that is the inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. Time would be the exact opposite as it's a unidirectional experience of the passing of events. You are mixing up two totally different concepts of reality. |
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14004 |
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Entropy as arrow of time is not my own idea. I don't remember where I've read it first, but it comes from theoretical physics. Probably from a Feynman's book.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14004 |
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Searching on the web it looks like the first to associate entropy with time arrow has been Sir Arthur Eddington, so it's an idea about 1 century old.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14004 |
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Found this: |
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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