QM: Does Time exist?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General discussions
Forum Description: Discuss any topic at all that is not music-related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133869
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 02:43
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: QM: Does Time exist?
Posted By: octopus-4
Subject: QM: Does Time exist?
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:01
|
As promised, I'm starting a thread about theoretical physics. It doesn't mean to be technical. Theoretical physics is often source of phylosophical reasonings and the real existence of time can possibly raise an interesting discussion: Let's start from a book: "THE END OF TIME" by Julian Barbour. Imagine a whole Universe consisting of only three points and a single particle. The possible configurations of this universe are only three: particle in point A, particle in point B and particle in point C. Lets take a photo of this Universe in all its possible states and make several copies,then call each photo "a slice of space". Use the slices as a deck of playing cards, then watch them in rapid sequence. We will have the impression of a particle moving randomicly from one point to another. Now do the same with our Universe consisting of billions of light years in diameter and approx 10^80 protons. The sequence of these enormous slices of spaces is what we call "time". The conclusion is that Everything may exist simultaneously. The illusion of Time depends only on the position of the slices. This could potentially explain the two slit experiment and some of the weird paradoces of the quantum mechanics. A colleague of Julian Barbour, Lee Smolin, has then published a book entitled "TIME REBORN", in which he presents the opposite vision: Time is substantial, absolutely real. Both the books are clear and enjoyable and despite the opposite opinions, the two scientists who are also colleagues in the same University, mention each other in a very respectfully way. Now: which vision of TIME do you prefer is the right one, and why? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Replies:
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:04
|
Please forgive the syntax error in the thread title: EXIST not EXISTS...sorry ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:19
You can easily edit that.
 |
octopus-4 wrote:Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:26
|
Can't find a way...how? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:32
The "edit post" in the "post options".
|
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 09:49
|
Nice. I did't think the subject could be updated. Now I'll search the Quintorigo suggestion that I've made in 2010 on which I misspelled the band's name ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 09:53
|
Of course the thread was closed 14 years ago, too late for a correction  ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 16:04
|
I will have to cogitate on the things you outlined. That aside, I tend to think it may not be possible to move at will between or with the slices of space/time, and so our notion of time travel is not feasible, at least using the example of a deck of cards being fanned, riffled, spread, or shuffled. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 16:25
People seem to think that it's crystal clear what it means to "exist". I don't think that at all. Also, I wonder whether "simultaneous" itself is a notion that relies on a concept of time?
|
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 16:51
| It's a very philosophical and scientific question that has been argued for centuries. Presentism argues that only the present is real, while the past and future have little reality. On this view, time really consists in our experience of duration, not as a measurable construct. On the other hand, eternalism maintains that all past, present, and future events are all equally real, much like all the points on a line are equally real points. Personally, I believe it is always only 'now'. |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 17:43
|
The measurement of time surely exists. And if the sun rises and sets on a schedule (as it does) then it could be said to be keeping time. Although, if life as we know it did not exist, then the sun (and everything else) would be un-observable and would not exist. Time exists in our minds given our capacity to comprehend our surroundings. Instinct, via seasons, is a timekeeper for many animals including man. Instinct can be said to be a clock of sorts that depends on a forward moving time, which is the future. Memory depends on times past. All crucial for survival in many ways. When we die, we have 'Run out of time' as we know and observe it.
The ability to even imagine a point A or a point B requires time to do it in, as would any question that time could answer. I'm thinking that if Time didn't exist then nothing else would. If consciousness (as we reckon it) didn't exist, then time wouldn't either.  Even if one could travel to the earths past, by rights, everything in the past should repeat exactly as it was. which means that you could not be there. The future is a roll of the dice that has not yet happened, and that would prohibit a visit. Theories about multiple 'Timelines' also prove that time exists in theory. lol
------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:06
| Time must exist, otherwise how would geologists have been able to dig up the fossilised remains of all these creatures that existed on Earth countless millions of years ago? The Earth is estimated to be about four and a half billion years old, yet to the average human being 100 years probably seems like an eternity - even though in reality it's just a tiny drop in the ocean - and to a mayfly, a single day probably seems like one too. I would imagine that all creatures are 'programmed' to perceive time differently, depending on how long their average lifespan is, but what 'force' is actually behind all this, I have absolutely no idea. |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:40
Assuming Time is real (I think it is) Then the force just may be water, excited by energy produced by radiation and magnetism... Magnetosphere protects earth from the void and too much radiation, The right amount of Radiation that is magically allowed through powers (Charges) the Sea and salts like a battery from which all life emanates. The Core of the earth is like a dynamo. The Universe is electric. I'm wildly speculating. I wrote it all down in great detail once when I was high on pot about 40 years ago  ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:50
|
^ Electricity is one of the most underappreciated energies, and may be responsible for much more than we think. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:54
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:55
Time perception as it's related to time itself does seem based on what one is doing or thinking, which is itself indicative of how time functions. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:58
|
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 19:13
Yes… water as well. All life is born of it. Our atmosphere is water, we die without water, and we are basically water. It took billions of years for water to self actualize. Water is smart.! Water is the closest thing to a God we have that we can actually touch. (Takes long hit off bong… cough cough) ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 19:57
I agree. The notion of simultaneousness would rely and depend on measurable time. Existence itself is a given even if we don’t fully understand the how and why. ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 20:02
|
I’m not really smoking weed at my age. Just kidding. funny because I’m re-watching fringe right now and timelines are all messed up. ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 21:52
Nice. I smoked for years but had to stop due to a condition that causes terrible stomach pain & nausea called Cannabis Hyperemises. I occasionally miss it but the cravings pass. Now I just drink Scotch. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 22:50
I quit because it caused me to overthink “everything”. Plus I found myself raising 2 beautiful daughters and they became priority. Being sober made me a better dad I think. They are in their late 20s now and doing fine. I have a beer or two every now and then . I had some problems with alcohol when my first wife passed. So I keep it to 2 drinks. But this coffee habit… dang!! ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 01:27
|
I don't and never will smoke weed for two reasons. 1. It's strictly banned in my country. 2. I'm poor and have a tendency for addictions. Weed would drain all my money in no time. I mean, it's not dirt cheap. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 05:21
I read Barbour's book back when it came out. I remember it being a rather dry, difficult read. If I'm remembering it correctly, much of it had to do with Planck length (or maybe Planck time?) and the "nows" were separated by this. It's an interesting idea, but I sometimes wonder if this is just mathematics trying to find a different reality that may not actually be there. I never read Smolin's book.
That's a curious idea worthy of thinking about. It sort of reminds me a bit of Donald Hoffman's studies on this in which he considers consciousness as something fundamental in the universe and the physical world emerges from that. It's kind of hard to wrap my brain around that, but curious nonetheless. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 06:39
|
...then watch them in rapid sequence. "Rapid sequence" is a time-dependent operation. You're using something that depends on time to define time. ------------- “I don’t like country music, but I don’t mean to denigrate those who do. And for those who like country music, denigrate means to ‘put down.'” – Bob Newhart |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 06:50
Yep!! Hard to deny that! ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 13:58
|
I have not
read either of the 2 books, but they seem fascinating. Both authors could be right in their own way.
Space and
time are inseparable. The faster you travel through space, the slower you travel
through time. This has been experimented with and demonstrated many times over. Theoretically, if you can travel at the speed
of light, time would essentially stop. Does
this mean that time does not really exist? I think that
it exists experientially but not in “reality”.
Similar to matter not being real, only existing experientially. “Reality is merely
an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
- Alber Einstein |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:00
Science
boils down everything to just 2 components, energy and consciousness. All matter is energy fluctuations. Matter is
not solid or motionless. If matter is comprised of energy, then can energy be
comprised of consciousness? If so, the
physical world emerges from it, along with the universe and anything in
creation. Tis all a dream.. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:07
|
^ Which implies there is no 'God'. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:30
If there is only consciousness, and only 1 consciousness, then God must have a massive delusional multiple personality symptom.
 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:32
|
^ Or the universe & natural world is God. In other words there is no God. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:39
| that is my understanding, all that is, Is God. Existence itself, pure and simple, there is nothing else. Non-existence, by definition, does not exist. |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 17:56
Isn’t Hoffman the guy who says (in essence) that we are in a construct similar to a video game, limited by a VU headset (our brains eyes and senses) that isn’t capable of giving us the entire view of our surroundings? That our perception is limited and basically created by our collective consciousness? Maybe it is a dream like Einstein said “a very persistent dream” lol ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 18:07
|
I’ve watched quite a few of the thousands of NDE videos and almost all of those who “come back” speak of TIME displacement. They claim they were on the other side for months, years etc. only to have been clinically dead for minutes. They also say they felt a sense of relief, breaking free, and communion with the universe and energy. (Or God) They are very interesting . I’d say 90% of them reported an inventory of their entire life and how it interacted with others. It’s crazy man!!! ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 23:04
|
The concept of time is related to the succession of our ideas. We can perceive time in different ways depending on how fast or slow our mind is working. If your mind is occupied in a work environment compared to if you are doing nothing more than sitting in your chair. Time is not existing outside our perceptions. When I feel that the days are going too fast, I am always questioning myself if I am doing the right thing and if it's not better to slow things down in our everyday life. But the sad thing is that we have to work if we can enjoy sitting in our chairs at home... ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 02:02
2. This is the same reason why I never tried heroin. But I've given a try to all the rest. I have to say that I'm no longer interested in drugs since a lot of time. I was hoping to experience alternate realities like in Castaneda's books, but I have experienced vomit more often. Weed is not a real drug as the addiction to it is purely mental, not physical, but as well as for alcohol (one of the worst drugs in my opinion) the important is avoiding the abuse. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 02:11
|
Back to the topic, of course simultaneity implies the concept of time, but we don't have any word in our languages to describe it. It's the same issue that we have in general in QM when we speak about the duality particle/wave. Whatever it is, it's different from both and we don't have a word for it. Not only, giving a thing a name doesn't mean knowing it or describing it. We don't know what a photon is even if it has a name. Instead of simultaneity, in the case of Barbour we may use a concept of "sequence" intended in a geometrical sense. Before and after on a line can be indicated as left or right. Time, too, has a name but we don't know what it really is. So, if we take a slice from his three points universe, and put other slices before and after it, even in a loop if we want, this sequence represents time, but we need movement. If the slices are pages of a book, time/movement consists in turning the pages. What Barbour says is that "the whole book exists regardless the turning of the pages" I admit that I like this idea, but Smolin has good reasons to disagree. In some ways both are right and wrong. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 02:24
The thing about Plank's length (or time) is one of the most discussed ideas in physics and something that really intrigues me. In geometry we have the concept of nondimensional points. Also in analisys we consider infinitely short distances when calculating integrals. But what if the Planck's length is the shortest possible distance? Planck's time is the time taken by light to cross a Planck length, so about 6*10^-33cm are crossed in 10^-44 secs. The consequences of it is that: subatomic perticles can't be punctiform. They can't be shorter than a Planck length a Black hole can't have a singularity inside Time and space are discontinuous. A clock can't tick faster than 10^-44 seconds In my opinion the most important consequence from a phylosophical point of view is that "Actual infinities can't exist". ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 02:27
One thing I agree with. From a purely logical point of view: If god is the creator of the universe, it doesn't exist inside its creation If Universe means "everything that exists, things outside of it don't exist Therefore god.
------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 06:21
|
Time is relative. For an individual, extreme fear and pain make the perception of time elongate. Changes in habits or your daily routine can elongate the perception of time. If you play video games or D&D the individual perception of time passes comparatively rapidly. Looking back at past events, I find it strange that two events that occurred simultaneously seem to differ immensely in my time perception. I married my husband several years post-911. Yet, 911 seems like it happened only a few years ago, whereas it seems like I've been married much longer. It's weird how my perception of time dovetails into Einstein's theory of relativity. For us, time moves faster and slower at the same time. Einstein's time dilation describes the difference of time that has elapsed between two events...measured by two or more observers moving relative to each other. The faster we go, the more time is affected. I wonder if Einstein's theory of relativity bleeds over into our individual perception of two events that occurred at the same time. Am I the same observer or two versions of me who witnessed two simultaneous events, but perceives the two events occurred at different times? I've spent much more time observing my marriage/husband than 911. Is that why 911 seems like yesterday? 
|
Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 06:49
If each page represents a snapshot of the state of the universe, and if the whole book already exists, then the future state of the universe is predetermined -- hence, there is no free will. Our fate is already determined, as documented in "the book". ------------- “I don’t like country music, but I don’t mean to denigrate those who do. And for those who like country music, denigrate means to ‘put down.'” – Bob Newhart |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 07:13
What if God didn't create the universe, but rather an infinitesimal part of his infinite being became the universe? BTW, an infinitesimal part of infinity is still infinity.
|
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 07:28
Why can't there be both, destiny/fate and freewill? An analogy as to your soul's destiny is to go down a particular hallway, your journey will be from point A to point B. How you go down that hallway is up to your free will. You can walk, skip, run, crawl, open every single door or not. If you have OCD you will tap on every single door  Another example as destiny would be a trip from NY to California. That trip you must take as your destiny, the way you go about it is your free will. Drive, fly, walk, run, bicycle, make several or no stops along the way.
|
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 09:59
|
I don't pretend to know the truth or to have the answers. Anywaay: Book and Freewill...the way the pages are aligned has surely some constraints. Teleport is possible in quantum mechanics, but non of us can be instantaneously teleported somewhere else. Consequently the page sequence can't be completely randomic. Partially randomic,maybe. If i take a page, I guess there are many possible adjacent pages. This is where the free will can be. All the possibilities are in the book, but not all of them become actual. About god... The idea of god coincident with the Universe is more or less the idea of Spinoza and partially of Einstein. But Can god/universe be conscious of what's inside? We are not conscious of the chemical reactions that happen inside our cells even if they are part of our bodies. That god is likely indifferent to what happens inside ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 10:00
Yes, that's the same Hoffmann. It's a very interesting take on reality. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 10:32
I believe the Planck length is the shortest possible distance. If my memory is correct, attempts to measure smaller distances require such an amount of energy that a black hole would form. It sounds like the laws of physics break down beyond such barriers (or are inapplicable). I think the assertions you make may be correct. I wish I had paid more attention in the one physics course I took dealing with QM, but that was more than 30 years ago and never dealt with topics like this. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 11:19
|
If time didn't exist how could there be time signatures in music? -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 11:24
 ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 11:26
I'd think that the topic of subjective perception of time is more or less strictly separated from the treatment of time in physics, and that the latter has little to say about the former. But then I'm not a physicist and not sure about this, so it's an interesting thing to bring up. In other news, I'd think that anything that appears is human language (as "time" does but also things the "existence" of which seems even less controversial) can be legitimately seen as a human construct, and this makes the concept of "existence" problematic, as checking existence of anything (meant as independent of human perception) would require to go beyond language and beyond human perception actually.
|
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 11:54
We have used the metaphor of turning the pages of a book. In that case it may be a sheet, instead. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 12:41
Time exists so that we don't experience everything simultaneously. Whatever the quantum mechanics may be is quite irrelevant to what we perceive. Even if the universe exists as a nonlinear temporal singularity like a CD sitting on a shelf, we as humans and our reality transmitter apparatuses (aka the brain) experience time as if we have our brains set to the "play" mode of a CD player. There have been rare cases where people experience temporal anomalies thus exposing the unified nature of space and time so it seems the question here is what is time on a mechanical level as opposed to what it means to be a sentient conscious being perceiving reality in the 3D construct. Those who experience clairvoyance seem to have access to timelines beyond the present moment. How this occurs is a mystery yet gives insight into the illusion of what time is however i think it's fair to say that it does exist without having any explanation of what its true nature is. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 16:20
|
What we experience is not how the universe really behaves. Of course, even if time doesn't exist, I can be late at work because this is how I perceive it. Understanding how it really works is the main purpose of every science. You can't directly perceive the time dilation because it's too little, but your mobile phone does. Think to the holographic principle: if we are really projections and the universe is the bi-dimensional internal surface of a sphere, this won't prevent me from crashing on a 3d wall. The omnipresent pages of the book won't make me back to life after my death, but knowing how they are shaoed may possibly give us the capacity of travelling in time or to alternate realities (well this is too SciFi, but it's just to make an example). What if time exists but is not linear? Somebody, maybe Kip Thorne but I'm not sure, has made some calculus about the possibility of life in universes with different numbers of dimensions and realized that an universe with two time dimensions can't allow chemistry. Kurt Godel has examined the possibility of time travels and has found a solution of the Relativity equations that allows it, but it's possible only in an Universe shaped as a cylinder rotating on its asses at a certain speed, so it's nothing more than a mathematical construct. Barbour's universe (let's call it this way) comprehends all the possible permutations of 10^80 protons inside the volume of the actual Universe. It's a very big number but it's not infinite. If the universe is infinite, an exact copy of us exists at approx 10^10^113 meters from here, and infinite copies are preset. Infinity is a bad thing in an actual universe: it means that there are part of it where Mickey Mouse and Cthulhu are real. But your metaphor of the "play" mode is very consistent and doesn't contradict the possibility of a Barbour's universe. I too have experienced something like temporal anomalies, but I don't trust on my perceptions. They were likely an illusion created but my brain trying to explain something apparently weird, the same thing that brain does when we catch external stimulations while we dream. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 15 2024 at 16:26
|
Sometimes it's easy to engage in mental masturbation and overlook the obvious. Time exists BECAUSE we perceive it. Babies become adults not the other way around. The very fabric of our 3D construct is dependent on the dimension of time as an integral element. Perhaps it's all a holographic illusion but still valid in our bubble of reality. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 01:05
|
What we are saying is not too different. But the only physical phenomenon which is aligned with the time arrow is enthropy. The probabliity of a seeing broken egg reverts the process and becomes integer again is extremely low but is more than zero. So can we say that experiencing time is experiencing enthropy? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 01:44
|
^entropy ------------- 'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.' |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 07:00
|
^thanks ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 08:15
Um, no! Entropy has specific scientific definitions. It can be a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work. It can be a measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. It can mean the tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve towards a state of inert uniformity. Or it can mean what most know it as and that is the inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. Time would be the exact opposite as it's a unidirectional experience of the passing of events. You are mixing up two totally different concepts of reality. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 09:59
|
Entropy as arrow of time is not my own idea. I don't remember where I've read it first, but it comes from theoretical physics. Probably from a Feynman's book. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 10:03
|
Searching on the web it looks like the first to associate entropy with time arrow has been Sir Arthur Eddington, so it's an idea about 1 century old. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 10:16
|
Found this: ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 11:09
How is perception related to existence in your view? I guess you wouldn't say that everything that anybody perceives automatically exists by definition? (Although it indeed then exists as a perception.)
|
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 19:10
There are literally thousands of theories but in the end just theories. Scientists love to mentally masturbate about things that will probably remain unprovable. If time were entropy then we would experience timelines chaotically but rather we experience a smooth linear trajectory. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 16 2024 at 20:00
Words and concepts are created to define our perceptions and experiences otherwise everything including the true nature of time is based on pure mathematics, most of which is beyond our comprehension. The word TIME refers to a nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future. Since the word was invented to define our perception of this force of nature then that means it exists or we wouldn't have created a word to define it. What i'm saying is that definitions and words are created to define our experiences and perceptions. The true nature of time is therefore irrelevant to our definitions. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: November 17 2024 at 06:52
|
Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson explains how gravity affects time, which presumably explains why astronauts appear to be moving in slow motion on the Moon. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 17 2024 at 08:40
|
^ that sh*t is all theoretical. Nobody has a
friggin clue how gravity or time really are generated. The name of the
science game is to promote the theory that serves an underlying agenda
and funded accordingly. Tyson is a poster child shill of scientific
propaganda.
------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 17 2024 at 11:06
Well, I know that the gravity with which we are familiar is a consequence of gravitational time dilation, which has been measured by the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound%E2%80%93Rebka_experiment" rel="nofollow - Pound-Rebka experiment . And what "underlying agenda" could possibly be served by general relativity if it is not correct? ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: November 17 2024 at 13:05
|
It takes matter, energy and time to co-exist for the universe to function at all, along with the 4 forces - gravity, electro-magnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force - all ultimately controlled by the laws of thermodynamics. It is the 2nd law of thermodynamics that introduces us to the concept of entropy, and the hence direction of change. For a proper explanation, try to find and watch Brian Cox's 4-part series 'Wonders of the Universe'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonders_of_the_Universe" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonders_of_the_Universe ------------- 'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.' |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 17 2024 at 21:46
Actually Einstein was only one scientist who proposed theories but was chosen by the establishment because he conformed to the status quo. Tesla discovered what's called scalar energy and it was Einstein's task to make the public forget about the genius of Nikola Tesla (and others who followed) therefore that experiment is basically unprovable theories of gravity. There has always been agendas that influence scientists but perhaps no other period changed the course of history more than the Baye-Dole Act of 1980 which limited the breadth of scientific funding. Most of the world unfortunately has been forced to comply with US hegemony on these matters due to the fact that world is basically pegged to the petrol dollar and the system. If you explore these things deeper it becomes apparent that many of these so-called "discoveries" are really not true. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 17 2024 at 21:58
This is slowly turning into a political drama thread. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 18 2024 at 03:01
|
I knew. Whenever the word "consciousness" appears in a scientific thread, it triggers similar behaviours. Anyway, the relation between gravity and time is described by T=t0/√v**2/c**2 and gravity, regardless what it is behaves like an acceleration. If ir was false, your navigator would never send you to your chosen destinatikn. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 18 2024 at 03:01
|
Theory in physics is not the sane as hypothesis, anyway ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 18 2024 at 09:13
Consciousness has everything to do with physics (according to some). There are many physicists who believe the entire world is nothing but a holographic projection and that our consciousness actually collectively creates and alters the laws of nature. As far as conventional science is concerned regarding time sometimes results are reproducible but ONLY
in very controlled conditions meaning they take into no account the
symbiotic effects of other forces and energies in a living dynamic
system. In other words results are CREATED by cherry picking input to create the intended results. This is MUCh more common than many would like to believe. Your assumption about a theory isn't as easy as you'd like to believe. The world has MANY meanings and #6 is most often the one we find in many scientific theories. the·o·ry(thē′ə-rē, thîr′ē)n. pl. the·o·ries 1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. 2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory. 3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics. 4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory. 5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime. 6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 18 2024 at 09:18
My GPS gets it wrong all the time! It's not as infallible as many believe. These equations serve as a rough guide, not an absolute. There are parts of the Earth where the geomagnetic energies are quite different and require a completely new set of variables. Obviously the scientific method has yielded untold advancements. That's not my point. The point is when it comes to the nature of time it is virtually unknown, at least what is revealed to the public. Once again though time does exist because we experience it. That's why every language has a word for it that was created. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 18 2024 at 11:39
|
The formula thai I posted has an errorunder square root it's 1 - v^2/c^2 ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 18 2024 at 11:42
|
The formula thai I posted has an error. Under square root it's 1 - v^2/c^2 ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: November 18 2024 at 12:53
|
Excluding consciousness from science is a major factor in
the progress or hinderance of scientific understanding. The holographic principle is gaining a lot of traction in
the scientific community, Leanard Susskind is a major proponent of it. I’m not
sure where he stands on consciousness creating our reality, but it certainly resonates
with me. Again, science has reduced everything to just 2 components, energy and
consciousness. If they take that last step
to condense it further, they’ll realize that it’s all consciousness. What would happen if we played the reduction game with space/time? If you do that with time, reducing the past
and future, you get to a single point that can be called Now. If you do that
with space, you get to a single point that can be called Here. So, everything exists, Here and Now. |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 18 2024 at 16:56
I didn't mention Einstein. I've been a regular visitor of a number of science forums over the past 20 years or more, and crackpots who claim Einstein's theories are wrong are a dime a dozen. Most have a flawed understanding of the theories, and their claims are easily refuted. A common mistake is to refer specifically to Einstein as if he is THE authority on the theories, failing to recognise that more than 100 years have passed since Einstein published those theories, and that those theories have moved on since Einstein. What is your understanding of general relativity? When I said that I know that the gravity with which we are familiar is a consequence of gravitational time dilation, it is because I have personally done the mathematics that establishes this result. One thing about mathematics is that, with the appropriate skills, anyone can do it. It's not subject to the deception that conspiracy theorists claim exists in science. General relativity is a highly mathematical theory, and I see its essential correctness as a result of its mathematical underpinning more so than its many experimental confirmations. However, the Pound-Rebka experiment does more or less prove that the spacetime surrounding earth is curved. Science doesn't normally speak of proofs, but because spacetime curvature is the result of a measurement, it is a factual notion. I say this because it seems to me that many people think of spacetime curvature as an abstract notion. But as a factual notion, it is clear that this must be THE cause of earth's gravity. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 18 2024 at 17:47
After the robber barrons bankrupted Nikola Tesla they began to divorce spirit or what Tesla called aether from the sciences. Before that spirituality and science were pretty much unified in most cultures (European cultures and diasporas the exception). After spending a decade in colleges and studying the "orthodox" ways of learning i later discovered that most of what is presented as fact is really just conjecture. The only discipline in modern science i could call relevant is engineering. Everything else is only presented to the public in calculated doses and super advanced physics is classified in black budget projects. As far as time goes it's very possible all time exists simultaneously and how we perceive it is what makes it "time." Those who participated in the Montauk Projects have stated as much. Sounds possible to me. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: November 18 2024 at 20:18
I think engineering is also presented to the public in
calculated doses. Is there any real funding
for free energy generation? The concept
of zero point energy was introduced over a hundred years ago. It was proven for the first time in the late
50’s via the Casimir effect. Since then
it was verified many times over all over the world. I’m willing to bet Tesla figured it out and
that technology was buried along with many other things the public doesn’t know
about. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 19 2024 at 07:47
|
^ most advanced technologies created by indie
scientists find themselves confiscated by the alphabet agencies and then
the patents acquired by the US under the guise of "national security."
Of course it all exists, most likely even time travel. Correct about
engineering being given into calculated doses but my point was that at
least engineers who build bridges and airplanes have to know what
they're doing. Most other sciences simply rely on computer programs to
feed them preestablished concepts and equations.
------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: November 19 2024 at 13:35
|
Being is part of an eternal present prior to all pasts. When someone looked at their watch 50 years ago, it was now. Our watches always show the present. Everything that exists as a representation is constituted now. Case closed ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 19 2024 at 15:21
From a physics standpoint electricity (or rather: electromagnetism) is the only force relevant in our daily lives. Gravity is also relevant, but it is not really a force
|
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 19 2024 at 15:27
|
^ looking like scalar energy is the underpinning of everything. Nikola Tesla discovered this in the 1800s. Now that we are getting rid of bureaucratic roadblocks that keep this technology from being implemented on a more massive scale outside of black budget projects, the floodgates are opening. Article excerpt from this site: http://www.groundedwellness.co.uk/blog/scalar-energy/?srsltid=AfmBOopPdDlp0nJ_ZTtc25mQuh6DNGn_Gnzwf7BQRybACWOTN2DpJiN3" rel="nofollow - https://www.groundedwellness.co.uk/blog/scalar-energy/?srsltid=AfmBOopPdDlp0nJ_ZTtc25mQuh6DNGn_Gnzwf7BQRybACWOTN2DpJiN3 What Is Scalar Energy?Scalar energy is considered, by the relatively few who know it exists, as potentially the greatest discovery in the history of science. Mostly referred to by the term 'scalar fields' or 'scalar energy', other terms used to describe this property of the universe are information fields, longitudinal waves, zero-point energy, tachyon, orgone, radiant energy, gravitic waves, quintessence, standing waves, and Tesla fields. The subject of scalar ties intimately into quantum mechanics and quantum field theory. Scalar fields exist as the informational/non-physical component of all matter, but in this article we will be discussing them mainly in relation to electromagnetic fields (EMFs). Every EM wave has a component called the transverse wave, and another component called the longitudinal (scalar) wave. Transverse waves are the part of the EMF that can be measured by meters, because they exist fully in 3-space (three-dimensional space) and are easily measurable. The term transverse refers to the up-and-down, oscillating motion of this wave moving through 3D space. They are also called Hertzian waves, and produce measurable frequencies. Transverse waves are what are currently being used in electricity and telecommunications, since they were more easily detectable and quantifiable to early scientists and electrical engineers. The longitudinal (scalar) component of the EM wave does not exist normally in 3-space. It moves along the axis of time itself, the 4th dimension. This sounds mysterious and may be hard to understand without delving deeply into quantum mechanics, but time is considered to be simply compressed energy, compressed by the factor of the speed of light squared. Scalar waves are superluminal, which means they move faster than the speed of light, because they are unbounded by the limitations of 3D space. Also, since they don’t exist in the third dimension in the same way that matter does, they move through the empty space between all matter. They are not limited or blocked by physical obstructions in space, like transverse EM waves are. The scalar component of an electromagnetic field is about 5 times stronger than the transverse component. For example, if your EMF meter picks up 100 milligauss, this is just a reading of the transverse wave that emits a measurable frequency, and the invisible scalar component will be around 500 milligauss. Although scalar fields cannot be detected by a standard meter, they are readily picked up by living organisms. All living things produce their own scalar energy (called bio-scalar), and are sensitive to scalar energy in their environment. The Earth is constantly producing a variety of ever-changing scalar fields, with which our bodies have evolved. Contrary to seemingly prevalent beliefs in the inherent goodness of scalar, scalar fields aren’t good or bad. Their healing and constructive effects, or destructive effects, depends on how they are produced, exactly what information is being carried by the scalar component, and the coherent or incoherent fields that can be used for either harmonizing or destructive purposes. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: November 19 2024 at 16:05
So am I, but that's because I'm a pachyderm. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 19 2024 at 16:12
And evidently not yet fully understood in the public domain--- I currently take the gravitational wave hypothesis to indicate gravity waves emanate from space, contact an object with mass, reflect off of that mass, and cause the attraction we experience on Earth. If applied and harnessed, this may be how antigravitation ~ or "zero-point" ~ could be used to propel an object, ergo the UAP phenomenon (?) . Or do I have that wrong... ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 19 2024 at 18:18
Well you deserve a cape then!  ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 05:59
So, not an hyppopotamus ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 06:05
|
"Time is a flat circle" - Nietzsche. That's simple enough. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 06:18
https://theness.com/neurologicablog/scalar-energy-scam/" rel="nofollow - https://theness.com/neurologicablog/scalar-energy-scam/
|
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 07:51
|
tachyons are purely hypotethical. M=m0/SQRT(1-v^2/c?) translated: Inertial mass =rest mass divided by the square root ov 1 minus velocity squared over c squared. So if v>c , M is the square root of a negative number. Does it make sense? "i" appears also in Schroedinger's equation, so the presence of the imaginary unit doesn't seem to be a problem, but... replace M with T and Time will flow backwards The key is "Inertia". It's another thing that we know exists, but we don't know exactly what it is. In my non-scientific opinion, is the resistanceof spacetime to motion. Let me explain: assume that spacetime is discontinuous, and the minimum cell of spacetime is based on the Planck length. A particle is made of at least 4 Planck lengths squared (from the black hole entropy computed by Hawking). A particle is a sort of "information" that's the sum of some spacetime cells. This information means mass, charge, colour and whatever measurables. Movement means transferring this information, or part of it to other cells (adjacent or not), and this transfer requires time. Apart of this idea, in order to accelerate, that means increasing v, me must spend energy, but energy increases the inertial mass, so to accelerate further you need more energy. This is asyntotic to c. In the tachyons world, you need energy to decelerate, so they can't be slowed down to c. How should the spacetime cells behave in that world? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 08:15
You find one article that tries to debunk it again and consider that gospel? Oh brother. This only works if you're scientifically illiterate  ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 08:16
Yeah but does music exist? ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 08:17
|
^^ I can use that article and Quantum Field Theory, which leaves no room for mysterious forces other than the ones we already know well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model
|
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 15:54
|
^ be patient. I'm skeptical about everything as well. I'm just on the inside with those who are using inventing lots of cool sh*t with scalar energy. I guarantee it's legit. They aren't mysterious at all. It just requires the right specialized equipment to measure. BTW Traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture is based on scalar energy only they call it qi or chi. Ayurveda likewise only they call it prana. Willhelm Reich invented the orgone machine over 100 years ago or so using scalar energy. Orgone is scalar energy. It goes by many names. It's been with us all along and propagandized out of our cultures. Research the Flexnor Report from 1910 and learn how all "natural" healing methods were demonized and slowly replaced with patentable pharmaceuticals. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 16:08
^ All of this is pseudo science. And I agree, it is not mysterious at all. 
|
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 16:44
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 22:46
|
^ There is no "science of scalar energy". I challenge you to properly define the term
|
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 23:38
|
One day Richard Feynman, looking at the quarks inside a proton asked: "By the way, who is Pink?" ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 20 2024 at 23:48
|
Feynman was also quite rhythmically inclined! ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 21 2024 at 00:27
Thus, scalar waves hold huge potential in this field and find new research and applications. Research into scalar waves provides a stimulus to explore their uses on cellular and genetic levels. It was stated that the overall results show great promise for scalar waves as a facilitator of cellular repair, improving DNA function and enhancing the body's natural healing mechanisms. The technologies based on scalar waves, such as scalar energy generators and therapeutic apparatus, are becoming increasingly popular in the field of medicine; indeed, many of these machines have already found their way into the market as wellness devices. As research continues, new types of therapies might be developed that take advantage of the peculiar characteristics of scalar waves for improving human health. |
