QM: Does Time exist?
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Printed Date: November 14 2024 at 14:39
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Topic: QM: Does Time exist?
Posted By: octopus-4
Subject: QM: Does Time exist?
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:01
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As promised, I'm starting a thread about theoretical physics. It doesn't mean to be technical. Theoretical physics is often source of phylosophical reasonings and the real existence of time can possibly raise an interesting discussion: Let's start from a book: "THE END OF TIME" by Julian Barbour. Imagine a whole Universe consisting of only three points and a single particle. The possible configurations of this universe are only three: particle in point A, particle in point B and particle in point C. Lets take a photo of this Universe in all its possible states and make several copies,then call each photo "a slice of space". Use the slices as a deck of playing cards, then watch them in rapid sequence. We will have the impression of a particle moving randomicly from one point to another. Now do the same with our Universe consisting of billions of light years in diameter and approx 10^80 protons. The sequence of these enormous slices of spaces is what we call "time". The conclusion is that Everything may exist simultaneously. The illusion of Time depends only on the position of the slices. This could potentially explain the two slit experiment and some of the weird paradoces of the quantum mechanics. A colleague of Julian Barbour, Lee Smolin, has then published a book entitled "TIME REBORN", in which he presents the opposite vision: Time is substantial, absolutely real. Both the books are clear and enjoyable and despite the opposite opinions, the two scientists who are also colleagues in the same University, mention each other in a very respectfully way. Now: which vision of TIME do you prefer is the right one, and why? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Replies:
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:04
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Please forgive the syntax error in the thread title: EXIST not EXISTS...sorry ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:19
You can easily edit that.
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octopus-4 wrote:Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:26
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Can't find a way...how? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 08:32
The "edit post" in the "post options".
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 09:49
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Nice. I did't think the subject could be updated. Now I'll search the Quintorigo suggestion that I've made in 2010 on which I misspelled the band's name ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 09:53
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Of course the thread was closed 14 years ago, too late for a correction  ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 16:04
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I will have to cogitate on the things you outlined. That aside, I tend to think it may not be possible to move at will between or with the slices of space/time, and so our notion of time travel is not feasible, at least using the example of a deck of cards being fanned, riffled, spread, or shuffled. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 16:25
People seem to think that it's crystal clear what it means to "exist". I don't think that at all. Also, I wonder whether "simultaneous" itself is a notion that relies on a concept of time?
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Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 16:51
| It's a very philosophical and scientific question that has been argued for centuries. Presentism argues that only the present is real, while the past and future have little reality. On this view, time really consists in our experience of duration, not as a measurable construct. On the other hand, eternalism maintains that all past, present, and future events are all equally real, much like all the points on a line are equally real points. Personally, I believe it is always only 'now'. |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 17:43
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The measurement of time surely exists. And if the sun rises and sets on a schedule (as it does) then it could be said to be keeping time. Although, if life as we know it did not exist, then the sun (and everything else) would be un-observable and would not exist. Time exists in our minds given our capacity to comprehend our surroundings. Instinct, via seasons, is a timekeeper for many animals including man. Instinct can be said to be a clock of sorts that depends on a forward moving time, which is the future. Memory depends on times past. All crucial for survival in many ways. When we die, we have 'Run out of time' as we know and observe it.
The ability to even imagine a point A or a point B requires time to do it in, as would any question that time could answer. I'm thinking that if Time didn't exist then nothing else would. If consciousness (as we reckon it) didn't exist, then time wouldn't either.  Even if one could travel to the earths past, by rights, everything in the past should repeat exactly as it was. which means that you could not be there. The future is a roll of the dice that has not yet happened, and that would prohibit a visit. Theories about multiple 'Timelines' also prove that time exists in theory. lol
------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:06
| Time must exist, otherwise how would geologists have been able to dig up the fossilised remains of all these creatures that existed on Earth countless millions of years ago? The Earth is estimated to be about four and a half billion years old, yet to the average human being 100 years probably seems like an eternity - even though in reality it's just a tiny drop in the ocean - and to a mayfly, a single day probably seems like one too. I would imagine that all creatures are 'programmed' to perceive time differently, depending on how long their average lifespan is, but what 'force' is actually behind all this, I have absolutely no idea. |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:40
Assuming Time is real (I think it is) Then the force just may be water, excited by energy produced by radiation and magnetism... Magnetosphere protects earth from the void and too much radiation, The right amount of Radiation that is magically allowed through powers (Charges) the Sea and salts like a battery from which all life emanates. The Core of the earth is like a dynamo. The Universe is electric. I'm wildly speculating. I wrote it all down in great detail once when I was high on pot about 40 years ago  ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:50
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^ Electricity is one of the most underappreciated energies, and may be responsible for much more than we think. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:54
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:55
Time perception as it's related to time itself does seem based on what one is doing or thinking, which is itself indicative of how time functions. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Starshiper
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 18:58
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Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 19:13
Yes… water as well. All life is born of it. Our atmosphere is water, we die without water, and we are basically water. It took billions of years for water to self actualize. Water is smart.! Water is the closest thing to a God we have that we can actually touch. (Takes long hit off bong… cough cough) ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 19:57
I agree. The notion of simultaneousness would rely and depend on measurable time. Existence itself is a given even if we don’t fully understand the how and why. ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 20:02
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I’m not really smoking weed at my age. Just kidding. funny because I’m re-watching fringe right now and timelines are all messed up. ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 21:52
Nice. I smoked for years but had to stop due to a condition that causes terrible stomach pain & nausea called Cannabis Hyperemises. I occasionally miss it but the cravings pass. Now I just drink Scotch. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 13 2024 at 22:50
I quit because it caused me to overthink “everything”. Plus I found myself raising 2 beautiful daughters and they became priority. Being sober made me a better dad I think. They are in their late 20s now and doing fine. I have a beer or two every now and then . I had some problems with alcohol when my first wife passed. So I keep it to 2 drinks. But this coffee habit… dang!! ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 01:27
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I don't and never will smoke weed for two reasons. 1. It's strictly banned in my country. 2. I'm poor and have a tendency for addictions. Weed would drain all my money in no time. I mean, it's not dirt cheap. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 05:21
I read Barbour's book back when it came out. I remember it being a rather dry, difficult read. If I'm remembering it correctly, much of it had to do with Planck length (or maybe Planck time?) and the "nows" were separated by this. It's an interesting idea, but I sometimes wonder if this is just mathematics trying to find a different reality that may not actually be there. I never read Smolin's book.
That's a curious idea worthy of thinking about. It sort of reminds me a bit of Donald Hoffman's studies on this in which he considers consciousness as something fundamental in the universe and the physical world emerges from that. It's kind of hard to wrap my brain around that, but curious nonetheless. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 06:39
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...then watch them in rapid sequence. "Rapid sequence" is a time-dependent operation. You're using something that depends on time to define time. ------------- “I don’t like country music, but I don’t mean to denigrate those who do. And for those who like country music, denigrate means to ‘put down.'” – Bob Newhart |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 06:50
Yep!! Hard to deny that! ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 13:58
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I have not
read either of the 2 books, but they seem fascinating. Both authors could be right in their own way.
Space and
time are inseparable. The faster you travel through space, the slower you travel
through time. This has been experimented with and demonstrated many times over. Theoretically, if you can travel at the speed
of light, time would essentially stop. Does
this mean that time does not really exist? I think that
it exists experientially but not in “reality”.
Similar to matter not being real, only existing experientially. “Reality is merely
an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
- Alber Einstein |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:00
Science
boils down everything to just 2 components, energy and consciousness. All matter is energy fluctuations. Matter is
not solid or motionless. If matter is comprised of energy, then can energy be
comprised of consciousness? If so, the
physical world emerges from it, along with the universe and anything in
creation. Tis all a dream.. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:07
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^ Which implies there is no 'God'. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:30
If there is only consciousness, and only 1 consciousness, then God must have a massive delusional multiple personality symptom.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:32
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^ Or the universe & natural world is God. In other words there is no God. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |