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QM: Does Time exist?
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wiz_d_kidd View Drop Down
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Time, too, has a name but we don't know what it really is. So, if we take a slice from his three points universe, and put other slices before and after it, even in a loop if we want, this sequence represents time, but we need movement. If the slices are pages of a book, time/movement consists in turning the pages. What Barbour says is that "the whole book exists regardless the turning of the pages"


If each page represents a snapshot of the state of the universe, and if the whole book already exists, then the future state of the universe is predetermined -- hence, there is no free will. Our fate is already determined, as documented in "the book".
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Which implies there is no 'God'.
One thing I agree with.

From a purely logical point of view:

If god is the creator of the universe, it doesn't exist inside its creation
If Universe means "everything that exists, things outside of it don't exist

Therefore god.

What if God didn't create the universe, but rather an infinitesimal part of his infinite being became the universe?  BTW, an infinitesimal part of infinity is still infinity. 
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Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Time, too, has a name but we don't know what it really is. So, if we take a slice from his three points universe, and put other slices before and after it, even in a loop if we want, this sequence represents time, but we need movement. If the slices are pages of a book, time/movement consists in turning the pages. What Barbour says is that "the whole book exists regardless the turning of the pages"


If each page represents a snapshot of the state of the universe, and if the whole book already exists, then the future state of the universe is predetermined -- hence, there is no free will. Our fate is already determined, as documented in "the book".

Why can't there be both, destiny/fate and freewill?  An analogy as to your soul's destiny is to go down a particular hallway, your journey will be from point A to point B.  How you go down that hallway is up to your free will.  You can walk, skip, run, crawl, open every single door or not.  If you have OCD you will tap on every single doorTongue

Another example as destiny would be a trip from NY to California.  That trip you must take as your destiny, the way you go about it is your free will.  Drive, fly, walk, run, bicycle, make several or no stops along the way.
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I don't pretend to know the truth or to have the answers. Anywaay:

Book and Freewill...the way the pages are aligned has surely some constraints. Teleport is possible in quantum mechanics, but non of us can be instantaneously teleported somewhere else. Consequently the page sequence can't be completely randomic.
Partially randomic,maybe. If i take a page, I guess there are many possible adjacent pages. This is where the free will can be. All the possibilities are in the book, but not all of them become actual.

About god... The idea of god coincident with the Universe is more or less the idea of Spinoza and partially of Einstein. But Can god/universe be conscious of what's inside?
We are not conscious of the chemical reactions that happen inside our cells even if they are part of our bodies. That god is likely indifferent to what happens inside
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Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I read Barbour's book back when it came out. I remember it being a rather dry, difficult read. If I'm remembering it correctly, much of it had to do with Planck length (or maybe Planck time?) and the "nows" were separated by this. It's an interesting idea, but I sometimes wonder if this is just mathematics trying to find a different reality that may not actually be there. I never read Smolin's book.

Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

If consciousness (as we reckon it) didn't exist, then time wouldn't either.

That's a curious idea worthy of thinking about. It sort of reminds me a bit of Donald Hoffman's studies on this in which he considers consciousness as something fundamental in the universe and the physical world emerges from that. It's kind of hard to wrap my brain around that, but curious nonetheless.



Science boils down everything to just 2 components, energy and consciousness. All matter is energy fluctuations. Matter is not solid or motionless. If matter is comprised of energy, then can energy be
comprised of consciousness? If so, the physical world emerges from it, along with the universe and anything in creation. Tis all a dream..


Isn’t Hoffman the guy who says (in essence) that we are in a construct similar to a video game, limited by a VU headset (our brains eyes and senses) that isn’t capable of giving us the entire view of our surroundings? That our perception is limited and basically created by our collective consciousness? Maybe it is a dream like Einstein said “a very persistent dream” lol

Yes, that's the same Hoffmann. It's a very interesting take on reality.
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I read Barbour's book back when it came out. I remember it being a rather dry, difficult read. If I'm remembering it correctly, much of it had to do with Planck length (or maybe Planck time?) and the "nows" were separated by this. It's an interesting idea, but I sometimes wonder if this is just mathematics trying to find a different reality that may not actually be there. I never read Smolin's book.

Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

If consciousness (as we reckon it) didn't exist, then time wouldn't either.

That's a curious idea worthy of thinking about. It sort of reminds me a bit of Donald Hoffman's studies on this in which he considers consciousness as something fundamental in the universe and the physical world emerges from that. It's kind of hard to wrap my brain around that, but curious nonetheless.



The thing about Plank's length (or time) is one of the most discussed ideas in physics and something that really intrigues me. 
In geometry we have the concept of nondimensional points. Also in analisys we consider infinitely short distances when calculating integrals.

But what if the Planck's length is the shortest possible distance? Planck's time is the time taken by light to cross a Planck length, so about 6*10^-33cm are crossed in 10^-44 secs.

The consequences of it is that:

subatomic perticles can't be punctiform. They can't be shorter than a Planck length
a Black hole can't have a singularity inside
Time and space are discontinuous. A clock can't tick faster than 10^-44 seconds

In my opinion the most important consequence from a phylosophical point of view is that "Actual infinities can't exist".  

I believe the Planck length is the shortest possible distance. If my memory is correct, attempts to measure smaller distances require such an amount of energy that a black hole would form. It sounds like the laws of physics break down beyond such barriers (or are inapplicable). I think the assertions you make may be correct. 

I wish I had paid more attention in the one physics course I took dealing with QM, but that was more than 30 years ago and never dealt with topics like this.
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If time didn't exist how could there be time signatures in music?



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Quote If time didn't exist how could there be time signatures in music?
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Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Time is relative.  For an individual, extreme fear and pain make the perception of time elongate.  Changes in habits or your daily routine can elongate the perception of time.  If you play video games or D&D the individual perception of time passes comparatively rapidly. 

Looking back at past events, I find it strange that two events that occurred simultaneously seem to differ immensely in my time perception.  I married my husband several years post-911.  Yet, 911 seems like it happened only a few years ago, whereas it seems like I've been married much longer. 

It's weird how my perception of time dovetails into Einstein's theory of relativity. For us, time moves faster and slower at the same time. Einstein's time dilation describes the difference of time that has elapsed between two events...measured by two or more observers moving relative to each other. The faster we go, the more time is affected. 

 I wonder if Einstein's theory of relativity bleeds over into our individual perception of two events that occurred at the same time.  Am I the same observer or two versions of me who witnessed two simultaneous events, but perceives the two events occurred at different times? I've spent much more time observing my marriage/husband than 911.  Is that why 911 seems like yesterday?  Wink 
I'd think that the topic of subjective perception of time is more or less strictly separated from the treatment of time in physics, and that the latter has little to say about the former. But then I'm not a physicist and not sure about this, so it's an interesting thing to bring up. 

In other news, I'd think that anything that appears is human language (as "time" does but also things the "existence" of which seems even less controversial) can be legitimately seen as  a human construct, and this makes the concept of "existence" problematic, as checking existence of anything (meant as independent of human perception) would require to go beyond language and beyond human perception actually.
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

If time didn't exist how could there be time signatures in music?


We have used the metaphor of turning the pages of a book. In that case it may be a sheet, instead.
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

If time didn't exist how could there be time signatures in music?


We have used the metaphor of turning the pages of a book. In that case it may be a sheet, instead.


Time exists so that we don't experience everything simultaneously. Whatever the quantum mechanics may be is quite irrelevant to what we perceive.

Even if the universe exists as a nonlinear temporal singularity like a CD sitting on a shelf, we as humans and our reality transmitter apparatuses (aka the brain) experience time as if we have our brains set to the "play" mode of a CD player. 

There have been rare cases where people experience temporal anomalies thus exposing the unified nature of space and time so it seems the question here is what is time on a mechanical level as opposed to what it means to be a sentient conscious being perceiving reality in the 3D construct.

Those who experience clairvoyance seem to have access to timelines beyond the present moment. How this occurs is a mystery yet gives insight into the illusion of what time is however i think it's fair to say that it does exist without having any explanation of what its true nature is.

 

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