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QM: Does Time exist?

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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 21:52
Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

(Takes long hit off bong… cough cough)


Nice.   I smoked for years but had to stop due to a condition that causes terrible stomach pain & nausea called Cannabis Hyperemises.   I occasionally miss it but the cravings pass.   Now I just drink Scotch.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2024 at 22:50
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

(Takes long hit off bong… cough cough)


Nice.   I smoked for years but had to stop due to a condition that causes terrible stomach pain & nausea called Cannabis Hyperemises.   I occasionally miss it but the cravings pass.   Now I just drink Scotch.



I quit because it caused me to overthink “everything”. Plus I found myself raising 2 beautiful daughters and they became priority. Being sober made me a better dad I think. They are in their late 20s now and doing fine. I have a beer or two every now and then . I had some problems with alcohol when my first wife passed. So I keep it to 2 drinks. But this coffee habit… dang!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 01:27
I don't and never will smoke weed for two reasons.

1. It's strictly banned in my country.
2. I'm poor and have a tendency for addictions. Weed would drain all my money in no time. I mean, it's not dirt cheap.

Edited by Hrychu - November 14 2024 at 01:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 05:21
I read Barbour's book back when it came out. I remember it being a rather dry, difficult read. If I'm remembering it correctly, much of it had to do with Planck length (or maybe Planck time?) and the "nows" were separated by this. It's an interesting idea, but I sometimes wonder if this is just mathematics trying to find a different reality that may not actually be there. I never read Smolin's book.

Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

If consciousness (as we reckon it) didn't exist, then time wouldn't either.

That's a curious idea worthy of thinking about. It sort of reminds me a bit of Donald Hoffman's studies on this in which he considers consciousness as something fundamental in the universe and the physical world emerges from that. It's kind of hard to wrap my brain around that, but curious nonetheless.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wiz_d_kidd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 06:39
...then watch them in rapid sequence.

"Rapid sequence" is a time-dependent operation. You're using something that depends on time to define time.

Edited by wiz_d_kidd - November 14 2024 at 06:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 06:50
Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

...then watch them in rapid sequence.

"Rapid sequence" is a time-dependent operation. You're using something that depends on time to define time.


Yep!! Hard to deny that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CosmicVibration Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 13:58

I have not read either of the 2 books, but they seem fascinating.  Both authors could be right in their own way.

 

Space and time are inseparable. The faster you travel through space, the slower you travel through time. This has been experimented with and demonstrated many times over.  Theoretically, if you can travel at the speed of light, time would essentially stop.  Does this mean that time does not really exist?

 

I think that it exists experientially but not in “reality”.  Similar to matter not being real, only existing experientially.  

 

“Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”  - Alber Einstein

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CosmicVibration Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:00
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I read Barbour's book back when it came out. I remember it being a rather dry, difficult read. If I'm remembering it correctly, much of it had to do with Planck length (or maybe Planck time?) and the "nows" were separated by this. It's an interesting idea, but I sometimes wonder if this is just mathematics trying to find a different reality that may not actually be there. I never read Smolin's book.

Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

If consciousness (as we reckon it) didn't exist, then time wouldn't either.

That's a curious idea worthy of thinking about. It sort of reminds me a bit of Donald Hoffman's studies on this in which he considers consciousness as something fundamental in the universe and the physical world emerges from that. It's kind of hard to wrap my brain around that, but curious nonetheless.


Science boils down everything to just 2 components, energy and consciousness.  All matter is energy fluctuations. Matter is not solid or motionless. If matter is comprised of energy, then can energy be comprised of consciousness?  If so, the physical world emerges from it, along with the universe and anything in creation.  Tis all a dream..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:07
^ Which implies there is no 'God'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CosmicVibration Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:30
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Which implies there is no 'God'.

If there is only consciousness, and only 1 consciousness, then God must have a  massive delusional multiple personality symptom. Confused


Edited by CosmicVibration - November 14 2024 at 14:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:32
^ Or the universe & natural world is God. In other words there is no God.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CosmicVibration Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 14:39
that is my understanding, all that is, Is God.  Existence itself, pure and simple, there is nothing else.  Non-existence, by definition, does not exist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 17:56
Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I read Barbour's book back when it came out. I remember it being a rather dry, difficult read. If I'm remembering it correctly, much of it had to do with Planck length (or maybe Planck time?) and the "nows" were separated by this. It's an interesting idea, but I sometimes wonder if this is just mathematics trying to find a different reality that may not actually be there. I never read Smolin's book.

Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">If consciousness (as we reckon it) didn't exist, then time wouldn't either.
</span>

That's a curious idea worthy of thinking about. It sort of reminds me a bit of Donald Hoffman's studies on this in which he considers consciousness as something fundamental in the universe and the physical world emerges from that. It's kind of hard to wrap my brain around that, but curious nonetheless.



<p ="Msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%">Science
boils down everything to just 2 components, energy and consciousness.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">  </span>All matter is energy fluctuations. Matter is
not solid or motionless. If matter is comprised of energy, then can energy be
comprised of consciousness? <span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>If so, the
physical world emerges from it, along with the universe and anything in
creation.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">  </span>Tis all a dream..<o:p></o:p></span>




Isn’t Hoffman the guy who says (in essence) that we are in a construct similar to a video game, limited by a VU headset (our brains eyes and senses) that isn’t capable of giving us the entire view of our surroundings? That our perception is limited and basically created by our collective consciousness? Maybe it is a dream like Einstein said “a very persistent dream” lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 18:07
I’ve watched quite a few of the thousands of NDE videos and almost all of those who “come back” speak of TIME displacement. They claim they were on the other side for months, years etc. only to have been clinically dead for minutes. They also say they felt a sense of relief, breaking free, and communion with the universe and energy. (Or God) They are very interesting . I’d say 90% of them reported an inventory of their entire life and how it interacted with others.

It’s crazy man!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 23:04
The concept of time is related to the succession of our ideas. We can perceive time in different ways depending on how fast or slow our mind is working. If your mind is occupied in a work environment compared to if you are doing nothing more than sitting in your chair. Time is not existing outside our perceptions. When I feel that the days are going too fast, I am always questioning myself if I am doing the right thing and if it's not better to slow things down in our everyday life. But  the sad thing is that we have to work if we can enjoy sitting in our chairs at home...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 02:02
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I don't and never will smoke weed for two reasons.

1. It's strictly banned in my country.
2. I'm poor and have a tendency for addictions. Weed would drain all my money in no time. I mean, it's not dirt cheap.

2. This is the same reason why I never tried heroin. But I've given a try to all the rest. I have to say that I'm no longer interested in drugs since a lot of time. I was hoping to experience alternate realities like in Castaneda's books, but I have experienced vomit more often. 
Weed is not a real drug as the addiction to it is purely mental, not physical, but as well as for alcohol (one of the worst drugs in my opinion) the important is avoiding the abuse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 02:11
Back to the topic, of course simultaneity implies the concept of time, but we don't have any word in our languages to describe it. 
It's the same issue that we have in general in QM when we speak about the duality particle/wave. Whatever it is, it's different from both and we don't have a word for it. Not only, giving a thing a name doesn't mean knowing it or describing it.

We don't know what a photon is even if it has a name.

Instead of simultaneity, in the case of Barbour we may use a concept of "sequence" intended in a geometrical sense. Before and after on a line can be indicated as left or right. 

Time, too, has a name but we don't know what it really is.

So, if we take a slice from his three points universe, and put other slices before and after it, even in a loop if we want, this sequence represents time, but we need movement. 
If the slices are pages of a book, time/movement consists in turning the pages.

What Barbour says is that "the whole book exists regardless the turning of the pages"

I admit that I like this idea, but Smolin has good reasons to disagree. In some ways both are right and wrong.




Edited by octopus-4 - November 15 2024 at 02:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 02:24
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I read Barbour's book back when it came out. I remember it being a rather dry, difficult read. If I'm remembering it correctly, much of it had to do with Planck length (or maybe Planck time?) and the "nows" were separated by this. It's an interesting idea, but I sometimes wonder if this is just mathematics trying to find a different reality that may not actually be there. I never read Smolin's book.

Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

If consciousness (as we reckon it) didn't exist, then time wouldn't either.

That's a curious idea worthy of thinking about. It sort of reminds me a bit of Donald Hoffman's studies on this in which he considers consciousness as something fundamental in the universe and the physical world emerges from that. It's kind of hard to wrap my brain around that, but curious nonetheless.



The thing about Plank's length (or time) is one of the most discussed ideas in physics and something that really intrigues me. 
In geometry we have the concept of nondimensional points. Also in analisys we consider infinitely short distances when calculating integrals.

But what if the Planck's length is the shortest possible distance? Planck's time is the time taken by light to cross a Planck length, so about 6*10^-33cm are crossed in 10^-44 secs.

The consequences of it is that:

subatomic perticles can't be punctiform. They can't be shorter than a Planck length
a Black hole can't have a singularity inside
Time and space are discontinuous. A clock can't tick faster than 10^-44 seconds

In my opinion the most important consequence from a phylosophical point of view is that "Actual infinities can't exist".  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 02:27
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Which implies there is no 'God'.
One thing I agree with.

From a purely logical point of view:

If god is the creator of the universe, it doesn't exist inside its creation
If Universe means "everything that exists, things outside of it don't exist

Therefore god.


Edited by octopus-4 - November 15 2024 at 02:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 06:21
Time is relative.  For an individual, extreme fear and pain make the perception of time elongate.  Changes in habits or your daily routine can elongate the perception of time.  If you play video games or D&D the individual perception of time passes comparatively rapidly. 

Looking back at past events, I find it strange that two events that occurred simultaneously seem to differ immensely in my time perception.  I married my husband several years post-911.  Yet, 911 seems like it happened only a few years ago, whereas it seems like I've been married much longer. 

It's weird how my perception of time dovetails into Einstein's theory of relativity. For us, time moves faster and slower at the same time. Einstein's time dilation describes the difference of time that has elapsed between two events...measured by two or more observers moving relative to each other. The faster we go, the more time is affected. 

 I wonder if Einstein's theory of relativity bleeds over into our individual perception of two events that occurred at the same time.  Am I the same observer or two versions of me who witnessed two simultaneous events, but perceives the two events occurred at different times? I've spent much more time observing my marriage/husband than 911.  Is that why 911 seems like yesterday?  Wink 

 

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