Most Overrated Band of the 'Big Six'

omphaloskepsis wrote: Psychedelic Paul wrote: All of the albums in the Avant Prog section are overrated in my view, but that's only because I haven't found any that I like so far, although I'll Keep On Trying.  The Avant section?  Prog Archive's favored son and class pet. Avant scratches the itch of those Proggers furthest removed from pop sensibilities.  Avant albums consistently rank higher in the Collaborator year end rankings than in the PA popular ratings.   Although I like several Avant bands, I empathize with you Paul.  I agree.  Avant prog is overrated amongst prog-heads.  Yet, it's largely ignored by the general music buying public.  Good luck in your quest for the lost time signature.

Not sure about this, as I know lots of people here who love kinds of pop music (as a genre term) and popular music. In PA, Kate Bush has experimental, progressive and art qualities, but she also has been a very popular artist oftwhat is considered to be pop genre music. I love her and Bjork, and Bjork I've heard on the radio many times (first when I was working in Japan). Those are quirky artists, and I think what a lot of avant-prog oriented people like is quirky, often quirky art pop and quirky art rock. Weyes Blood is commonly very easy-listening, yet I know various people who like avant-prog here who love her music (I'm one of them).

I would say that Prog generally is ignored by the masses. Various of the big six still sell big numbers (I don't tend to think of Pink Floyd as Prog per se), and while Pink Floyd is mainstream (again with experimental qualities), I don't recall hate for it from avant-proggers. In fact it has avant qualities and avant (or just plain experimental) tracks.

I have mostly compared PA with rateyourmusic, and I find that here in the charts is where you find much higher ratings for modern Neo-Prog and melodic Prog generally than there, where say, Swans rates very high with big numbers, and black midi etc. What I have found is that certain bands fanbases have spammed the album pages with ratings and reviews to boost the rating and ranking here, and we have had a lot of abuse. I don't think it's much in PA, certainly past the classic prog years, that have got much attention by the general music buying public (some of the bands included in metal have been popular, and some in Crossover....). I actually find that my tastes commonly align more with those at rateyourmusic and that gets much higher numbers of people rating the music I love.


Edited by Logan - May 01 2023 at 09:50

I looked to see if youtube reviewer Anthony Fantano (The Needle Drop) has reviewed black midi albums, fully expecting that he has, and yes indeed he has. He is a very significant influencer, and he gets recommendations from certain niche. I read before on various recent Swans albums comments people saying things like, "Let's face it, guess most of us are here thanks to Fantano." I've only watched one of his videos -- my 16 year old son who listens mostly to classical and game soundtrack music knew of him too when I mentioned him. He does review the kinds of music I seem to be most into these days from when I have looked him up, and that music tends to be very popular at rateyourmusic and in reddit communities. On the other hand, he reviews so very much that it would be hard for me not to be into a lot of the same music.

Edited by Logan - May 01 2023 at 09:28

Times change.

In 1972, I had ELP (all albums), one JT, and the 2 early Yes albums.

There was nothing to consider "over-rated" in their work. They were original and they created some very nice and challenging material that messed up your mind really good. I did not get into Genesis, KC until later, and PF was nice, and played, but we only had the 2 early albums and they were nice, but very poppy, although I would consider it all very "anti-pop" since Syd's lyrics did not fit the mold of the regular pop song, and neither did it instill any ... appreciation ... by fans, until much later when he was inducted to the level of ... something or other!

In 2022, I have all these, and find that some of them are "over-rated", though I do not use that on ELP at all, since their appreciation for music, and difficult material, was always done on the stage as well, and I never thought of some of their work as anything else other than "classical" ... the kind that the progressive folks refuse to acknowledge and prefer to use fake synths instead to create cardboard imagery. There is no cardboard imagery in ELP ... compared to the Ian material telling stories, some of which you would not care about anyway, but the song was nice to listen to, and the early Yes material which showed an interesting flow, that burst out in "Fragile" and then "Close to the Edge".

Many folks today will consider a lot of these things "over-rated" because their listening ability can not pass the muster beyond the hit mentality and the few minutes format. As such, the comments by a lot of folks here, really sound petty, and silly, and bizarre. It's like you can not trash my favorite, you shcum.

The main issue I have with the "over-rated" bs, is that the criteria for it is just a personal opinion, not anything based on fact. Melody Maker made a lot of these bands famous for over-rating their work, but then, they were about helping the record company sell stuff, for which they could get even more advertising from them, and bring in some good money! Thus, you knew that the bands were usually given a better rating than it should have, but --- all in all --- it meant well for the band, although I do think that Genesis went out of their way to rip off a couple of European bands, and then call it their own ... which MM would not touch with a feather brick! It didn't want to give any credence to any European band at the time, because it took away from the precious sales of these English bands!

I wish we would look at a lot of this material as the ART that it deserves to be. It's not just coincidence that something lasts over 50 years and is still remembered and appreciated, but some folks here have to step up and trash it, because it wasn't their bag. So what? You may not like Picasso, but he will live a lot longer than you and your ideas with his work ... so why not suck it up and realize that sometimes, a band, or two, deserve a little more credit for their work than the trash they are getting here.

I'm not exactly a fan of Ian Anderson, or Jethro Tull (after MIAG), but I will never deny him the ability to write lyrics that are very strong, and carry a lot of their material ... I do think that his "ego" got in the way some and it took away some of the magic of the band, but that is another story ... but no longer could he ever write about the "passion" or the "hare and his spectacles". Kinda weird for me that someone has that ability and they waste it ... their ability to do another "L. Frank Baum" wasted by the comments made in the media about how stupid that or this or that was! A writer, painter, and even true musician ... has to withstand that if they want to become more than just a slave to commerciality! I don't think Ian succeeded at that well, and neither did Genesis, Yes, King Crimson and even Pink Floyd, that could never over come the behemoth and monster they created and continue trying to reinvent it exactly the same to our bored eyes and ears.

There is no such thing as "over-rated" since tomorrow, it will be considered different ... but the Stravinsky's and Debussy's of the world will flick a finger at you ... they made it, and survived and are loved ... endlessly by many folks ... while you bitch that you hate Beethoven and Mozart.

It just seems fruitless, and senseless!

Edited by moshkito - May 01 2023 at 06:36

Psychedelic Paul wrote: All of the albums in the Avant Prog section are overrated in my view, but that's only because I haven't found any that I like so far, although I'll Keep On Trying.

Saperlipopette! wrote: But it’s a clear enough indication that in the real world VdGG is still an obscure band, that very few know about.

Edited by David_D - May 01 2023 at 05:19

presdoug wrote: Logan wrote: If Triumvirat is the most under-rated Prog band, then I wonder if Russian Roulette is its most underrated album by Proggers? And À La Carte also has woeful ratings. ELP is my least favourite of the big six very easily, and Pink Floyd and King Crimson are my favourites. That said, I wouldn’t generalize about it being overrated. My thinking is that things commonly are overrated by some and underrated by others, but when judging others value judgements it makes sense to try to look at specific claims. Holding something in high value because you enjoy it is not overrating it, putting it on a pedestal as exemplary while making false/ dubious claims and holding false beliefs, and making invalid, unacceptable, insufficient, irrelevant, and unjustifiable arguments in favour of it, is overrating it.   I could argue that it is likely that the more something is known the more overrated it will be by individuals, and the same likely would hold true for it being underrated by the most individuals (it is both the most underrated and overrated) in which case Pink Floyd would be the most obvious choice, but I won’t vote. Of course, when I ever refer to Triumvirat as an under-rated prog band at all, I don't mean those two albums! More like their first four. And that is my opinion on it.

Indeed, I did not think you or others here would refer to those albums as underrated Prog or any kind of Prog. I have only heard a bit of À La Carte, but what I have heard of Russian Roulette is not Prog in my book. What I have often heard is that people as Proggers will tend to underrate albums by bands well-known for making Prog that have moved away from Prog (maybe into pop-rock, or more AORish music etc.). So they are judging those albums by Prog standards, and by what the band did before, rather than on the albums own merits. From what I've listened to from those albums, well, it didn't sound good to me ears by any standards I hold dear, and so I was kidding around a bit, but also trying to allude to Proggers being dismissive of non-Prog, ands kinds of commercial music by bands commonly regarded as Prog.

The common claim I have often seen about Triumvirat is that it is an ELP clone or too derivative and imitative of ELP, or that it's a poor man's ELP, and that Jürgen Fritz is a Keith Emerson wannabe, and if one disagrees with such claims then that would seem the most likely way to view others as underrating Triumvirat based on my experience. I read a review recently of À La Carte which claimed how they were still doing an ELP by also releasing a Love Beach like album in the same year (maybe the review said following the same trajectory because I expect that the Triumvirat came out a little earlier?) Anyway, they did both move into the same POP/AOR direction and both released very bad to me ears albums in 1978 and beyond. It's interesting the spectrum of opinions I have heard on Triumvirat's sounding like ELP. I remember at least one who disliked ELP and really liked Triumvirat.

Edited by Logan - May 01 2023 at 03:05

If Triumvirat is the most under-rated Prog band, then I wonder if Russian Roulette is its most underrated album by Proggers? And À La Carte also has woeful ratings.

ELP is my least favourite of the big six very easily, and Pink Floyd and King Crimson are my favourites. That said, I wouldn’t generalize about it being overrated. My thinking is that things commonly are overrated by some and underrated by others, but when judging others value judgements it makes sense to try to look at specific claims. Holding something in high value because you enjoy it is not overrating it, putting it on a pedestal as exemplary while making false/ dubious claims and holding false beliefs, and making invalid, unacceptable, insufficient, irrelevant, and unjustifiable arguments in favour of it, is overrating it.   I could argue that it is likely that the more something is known the more overrated it will be by individuals, and the same likely would hold true for it being underrated by the most individuals (it is both the most underrated and overrated) in which case Pink Floyd would be the most obvious choice, but I won’t vote.

Edited by Logan - May 01 2023 at 01:34

People are throwing around the word "masterpiece"; for me, ELP's first several albums qualify. I don't consider them an overrated group at all. And they have stood the test of time well for me. I really don't give a rat's ass what counts "in the grand scheme of things".