Most Overrated Band of the 'Big Six'

jamesbaldwin wrote: EL&P1, Tarkus, Trilogy, Brain Salad are good albums (similar quality) with some great track, but is there a masterpiece?

David_D wrote: But I have to admit that ELP is certainly not one of The Big Six according to the ratings on RYM and PA.

To me ELP are the most "child of their time" out of the bands in the poll. I think that's the reason their music largely fails to communicate to younger generations. I'm exaggerating a bit. But I do believe that's why they have lost more of their fanbase since the 1970's than any of the other five other bands in the so-called Big Six. I know some people here, strongly dislike that this is even an issue for others, but it's also about how they sound. Personally I know they are "great", but I can't listen to them. I don't enjoy their musical approach in similar ways to how I don't enjoy Janis Joplins singing style. I know she was "great" too, but it doesn't really help me much.

David_D wrote: jamesbaldwin wrote: EL&P1, Tarkus, Trilogy, Brain Salad are good albums (similar quality) with some great track, but is there a masterpiece? About masterpieces, I find much masterwork in ELP's first five albums, not least Emerson's keyboard playing, and I have the impression that it's quite admired among musicologists - and as said, the first five albums certainly work to me.

^ Later in the thread, I also made lists based on top two albums, top three albums, and top four albums, in which Van der Graaf Generator are in the top six.

jamesbaldwin wrote: I prophesy disaster wrote: ^ Later in the thread, I also made lists based on top two albums, top three albums, and top four albums, in which Van der Graaf Generator are in the top six.   Even in this one Vdgg are in the top 6. Now the ranking for 1 album is 1) Yes 2)Genesis 3) Pink Floyd 4) King Crimson 5) Jethro Tull 6) VdGG ---- 7) Camel 8) PFM 9) Rush 10) Banco 11) Anglagard 12) Zappa 13) Gentle Giant 14) Davis 15) Harmonium 16) Wobbler 17) Mahavishnu Orchestra 18) Caravan 19) Renaissance 20) Supertamp 21) Dream Theater 22) Museo Rosenbach 23) Steven Wilson 24) Hammill 25) Oldfield 26) Porcupine Tree 27) Opeth 28) Magma 29) Wyatt 30) Return to forever

I think the point you're trying to make is ELP was far more popular to the masses in progs peak. For example I never heard of Van Der Graf Generator until relatively recently, granted I am young but ELP was one of the first pog bands I ever heard of.

Saperlipopette! wrote: But it’s a clear enough indication that in the real world VdGG is still an obscure band, that very few know about.

People are throwing around the word "masterpiece"; for me, ELP's first several albums qualify. I don't consider them an overrated group at all. And they have stood the test of time well for me. I really don't give a rat's ass what counts "in the grand scheme of things". 

If Triumvirat is the most under-rated Prog band, then I wonder if Russian Roulette is its most underrated album by Proggers? And À La Carte also has woeful ratings.

ELP is my least favourite of the big six very easily, and Pink Floyd and King Crimson are my favourites. That said, I wouldn’t generalize about it being overrated. My thinking is that things commonly are overrated by some and underrated by others, but when judging others value judgements it makes sense to try to look at specific claims. Holding something in high value because you enjoy it is not overrating it, putting it on a pedestal as exemplary while making false/ dubious claims and holding false beliefs, and making invalid, unacceptable, insufficient, irrelevant, and unjustifiable arguments in favour of it, is overrating it.   I could argue that it is likely that the more something is known the more overrated it will be by individuals, and the same likely would hold true for it being underrated by the most individuals (it is both the most underrated and overrated) in which case Pink Floyd would be the most obvious choice, but I won’t vote.

Edited by Logan - May 01 2023 at 01:34

presdoug wrote: Logan wrote: If Triumvirat is the most under-rated Prog band, then I wonder if Russian Roulette is its most underrated album by Proggers? And À La Carte also has woeful ratings. ELP is my least favourite of the big six very easily, and Pink Floyd and King Crimson are my favourites. That said, I wouldn’t generalize about it being overrated. My thinking is that things commonly are overrated by some and underrated by others, but when judging others value judgements it makes sense to try to look at specific claims. Holding something in high value because you enjoy it is not overrating it, putting it on a pedestal as exemplary while making false/ dubious claims and holding false beliefs, and making invalid, unacceptable, insufficient, irrelevant, and unjustifiable arguments in favour of it, is overrating it.   I could argue that it is likely that the more something is known the more overrated it will be by individuals, and the same likely would hold true for it being underrated by the most individuals (it is both the most underrated and overrated) in which case Pink Floyd would be the most obvious choice, but I won’t vote. Of course, when I ever refer to Triumvirat as an under-rated prog band at all, I don't mean those two albums! More like their first four. And that is my opinion on it.

Indeed, I did not think you or others here would refer to those albums as underrated Prog or any kind of Prog. I have only heard a bit of À La Carte, but what I have heard of Russian Roulette is not Prog in my book. What I have often heard is that people as Proggers will tend to underrate albums by bands well-known for making Prog that have moved away from Prog (maybe into pop-rock, or more AORish music etc.). So they are judging those albums by Prog standards, and by what the band did before, rather than on the albums own merits. From what I've listened to from those albums, well, it didn't sound good to me ears by any standards I hold dear, and so I was kidding around a bit, but also trying to allude to Proggers being dismissive of non-Prog, ands kinds of commercial music by bands commonly regarded as Prog.

The common claim I have often seen about Triumvirat is that it is an ELP clone or too derivative and imitative of ELP, or that it's a poor man's ELP, and that Jürgen Fritz is a Keith Emerson wannabe, and if one disagrees with such claims then that would seem the most likely way to view others as underrating Triumvirat based on my experience. I read a review recently of À La Carte which claimed how they were still doing an ELP by also releasing a Love Beach like album in the same year (maybe the review said following the same trajectory because I expect that the Triumvirat came out a little earlier?) Anyway, they did both move into the same POP/AOR direction and both released very bad to me ears albums in 1978 and beyond. It's interesting the spectrum of opinions I have heard on Triumvirat's sounding like ELP. I remember at least one who disliked ELP and really liked Triumvirat.

Edited by Logan - May 01 2023 at 03:05