Eclectic Prog Friends' Imaginative Club

Edited by David_D - May 11 2022 at 10:55

David_D wrote: A rumour says that some people don't find the Eclectic sub-genre to be a true, organic one, and that prevents them from joining the club.

Specifically, Mirrors and Illusion or the difference between perception and reality.
I think the narrative arc is of a performer (Hammill) staring into his mirror and questioning his motives for being who he is.
He's talking to his reflection - "You and the Undercover man". The undercover man is his subconscious.

Logan wrote: And as I am very into Swans, to me that is more of an Eclectic Prog band than a post-rock band.

Edited by David_D - May 11 2022 at 14:40

 

Edited by David_D - May 12 2022 at 01:55

Logan wrote: ^ Hope you enjoy them. My favourite Swans albums are Soundtracks For the Blind, Children of God, The Great Annihilator, White Light From the Mouth of Infinity and the Glowing Man methinks. That may change and I still haven't heard all of them. Those are all quite different, but not as different as Swans can get.

Classical, Jazz, Folk, electronic avant-garde or other avant-garde, AND

2. be rather complex or at least to some extent experimental in another way than #1.

”electronic avant-garde” is here primarily Musique Concrete and Minimalism while 

Psychedelic Paul wrote: Just when I was proud to be a member of the Eclectic Prog Friends' Club, I now realise the club may be Just an Illusion, or is that just my Imagination, running away with me?

David_D wrote: Psychedelic Paul wrote: Just when I was proud to be a member of the Eclectic Prog Friends' Club, I now realise the club may be Just an Illusion, or is that just my Imagination, running away with me?  I'm happy to hear about you being proud, Paul. The "Illusory Club" is how I think of the present state of it (and to make the title maybe even more interesting/intriguing), but it continues and depending on how it goes, the illusion may proved to be illusory, and then the name of the club can just be changed again, right? - maybe even to "not so Exclusive Club".

Psychedelic Paul wrote: Just when I was proud to be a member of the Eclectic Prog Friends' Club, I now realise the club may be Just an Illusion, or is that just my Imagination, running away with me?

David_D wrote: Logan wrote: ^ Hope you enjoy them. My favourite Swans albums are Soundtracks For the Blind, Children of God, The Great Annihilator, White Light From the Mouth of Infinity and the Glowing Man methinks. That may change and I still haven't heard all of them. Those are all quite different, but not as different as Swans can get. So far, I've found Children of God to be most accessible, but I must say that I don't think of Swans music as Progressive Rock, the way I've defined it, which is: "<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-align: justify;">1. be a synthesis/fusion of Rock (significantly present) and at least one of other "main genres": </span> <p style=": rgb248, 248, 252; margin: 0cm 3.7pt 0cm 9.05pt; text-align: justify; line-height: 16pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Classical, Jazz, Folk, electronic avant-garde or other avant-garde, AND<o:p></o:p></span> <p style=": rgb248, 248, 252; margin: 0cm 3.7pt 0cm 9.05pt; text-align: justify; line-height: 16pt;"><span lang="EN-US">2. be rather complex or at least to some extent experimental in another way than #1.<o:p></o:p></span> <p style=": rgb248, 248, 252; margin: 0cm 3.7pt 0cm 9.05pt; text-align: justify; line-height: 16pt;"><span lang="EN-US">”electronic avant-garde” is here primarily Musique Concrete and Minimalism while <o:p></o:p></span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252; text-align: justify;">”other avant-garde” include Free and Avant-Jazz and Contemporary Classical.</span>"

Sorry for any and all-mistakes. I quickly typed this out and haven't the chance to read through and edit now, but I wanted to get in my response before heading out the door. So not as thought through a response as I would have liked, but decent and quite comprehensive posts can take considerable time for me to write.

That's fine although I do think when asking if a band is Prog, one should try to consider a large portion of the discography deemed most relevant. Ask ten people at PA what is Prog to them, and you might get 30 definitions. It's a nebulous, amorphous concept to me and it can mean many things. I too commonly consider Prog to be a fusion of genres -- commonly classical, jazz, and folk mixed with rock but it can incorporate any genre, some of my favourites would be world music, and it often has some basis in psychedelic music, and has an overlap with art rock. Prog can mean experimental rock to me. An important aspect of being progressive in this sense has involved breaking away from the established conventions of rock (or commercial rock) to some extent (so it is quite unconventional) as I see it. Often it is what I would call non-canonic or not generic rock. Sometimes the music has gone beyond rock. Progressive rock need not adhere to the common expectations of rock music. It is about progressing away from the rock lexicon (canonical rock), taking in varied influences, playing with form etc. It is often playful with often long compositions etc. So I see Prog as non-generic in a sense, and I think by limiting it to strict definitions that to me works against what I see as the spirit of progressive rock. Progressive rock might be seen as rock without borders, without barriers. It may be music that is constantly progressing farther and farther away from what rock has been and could be. That said, there have been borders for me even if those borders are fuzzy.

While I tend to avoid the Prog label except for site work (when it comes to the site I try to consider all of our subgenre definitions and what I know has been included) and because of forum discussion, but a part of me dislikes even the term progressive rock, I would sooner describe Swans as experimental rock than progressive rock. I have become less keen on trying to label things, and Prog can mean so many things,

The reason why Eclectic Prog works better as a descriptor than Post-Rock for Swans to me is because I don't find that Post-Rock dominates the music enough across the discography -- I guess it was though to be significant enough in the albums thought most PA worthy, which might have been Soundtracks of the Blind up -- I think it was added more the revival period albums, The Seer and to be Kind in maybe early 2015 or late 2014. I get why it was added to Post Rock for those atmospheric qualities, the ambience and crescendos. I suggested a band not long with Swans-like qualities to Post Rock, which was accepted and added.

I think of it as more experimental rock with art rock qualities first (those two overlap anyway), which has a Prog Folk relation (think Neofolk, Dark Folk and Avant Folk), Krautrock, and Post-Rock qualities (with a Psych relation). I also would say that the band could be seen as progressive rock because it has progressed or changed style enough from album to album and even song to song. The No Wave Noise Rock of the debut is quite different from the Experimental Post Punk, Neo Folk, Gothic and Industrial Children of God, which is quite different from the more commercial Neofolk with country following album, which is different from the Experimental Post-Rock Soundtracks for the Blind (which many consider to be Swans masterpiece), which is different again from the more folky leaving meaning. Which is not say that it has been hugely diverse. It as at least prog related to me and I am a big tenter. A lot of my favourite music I don't consider to be properly Prog genre, but has a Prog relation. And I'd rather listen to the likes of Portishead, Stereolab, Air, Broadcast and Pram than Dream Theater, Marillion, Spock's Beard etc. etc.