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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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I wouldn’t say he is on the good side, per se. But I don’t think it’s greatly surprising. He’s far more consistent than a lot of people assume, because of how he tends to be portrayed in the media. Going back to his original, often lengthy, diatribes is often necessary - because it can often paint a quite different picture from that which is reported in the media. Waters is almost a Lennon “Imagine” like idealist. I suspect he would rather imagine there were no countries, and nothing to kill or die for. A lot of what he says is idealistically pragmatic, and often probably unachievable. But while there are countries, Waters has consistently come down on any invasion or occupation of one sovereign country by another (with the media making much of his views about Israel and Palestine). But he is, above all, about people over countries. He always emphasises that it is the leaders that he has the problems with. And he always gives historical context that shows why a leader might feel able to take the actions they do. This, more than anything, is where Waters is often misconstrued if people see only parts of what he has written. In terms of Ukraine, I have seen a lot of people state that Waters is a hypocrite, for now standing with Ukraine, when he stood with Russia during the original 2014 invasion of Crimea. However, that’s based entirely on his pointing out the historical problems of borders, and that historically speaking, Crimea has been Russian far longer than it has been Ukrainian. He perhaps made a foolish comment by suggesting that as there more Russians living there than Ukrainians, and as the borders had been so arbitrarily imposed by foreign powers, then he could understand why Putin invaded. But that was more to do with his dislike of the way countries are arbitrarily created and changed over history, to suit the victors or those with the dominant hegemony. He had also criticised Putin for the invasion, and called him out for being a gangster (or whatever terminology he was using back then - I would need to Google to find out). I’m no great fan of Waters. He can be a first-class cockwomble and t**twaffle, and he says some amazingly crass and dickheadish things. But I think, as twisted as it might be, he has a good heart - and just wants the world to live in peace. I was definitely not surprised, the way many seemed to be, when Waters came out on the side of the Ukrainian people, and very much against Putin. To me, that was standard Waters. As was his urging people not to demonise the Russian people just because of their “gangster” leader. And that is something I wish more people would do. Because I am seeing so much anti-Russian sentiment - and that is not helpful at all. It is possible to be pro-Russian people, and anti-Putin. Waters doesn’t like Zelenskyy, either. (Then again, I’m not sure if he likes any world leader.) So he is also consistent there. He is for the Russian and Ukrainian peoples, but not their leaders. |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20338 |
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^^^^^ Excellent post resuming Waters Also for more details about those f**ked-borders and the soviet heritage , go back to page 5 or 6 of the first Ukraine concern thread and see the wiki maps I posted. Most of what (the land) the russians are claiming back is what Lenin gave Ukraine exactly 100 years ago - along with Crimea given to them by Kroutchev (was he not Ukrainian?) in 1957, despite being totally russian-populated. Btw, just like Odessa (next to the greater Romania/Moldova) was built by the Tsars in the second half of the XIXth C. Soooooo, I can understand why a communist like Waters has trouble dealing with the Soviet heritage (I/we all do too) and had some sympathy for Russia, but clearly Putin is not a communist (despite coming out of the KGB) - so hating Putin like he does Trump is not hypocrisy from him. Just like me, he (Roger) never thought Putin would actually start this atrocious war.
Point well taken. I knew agreeing with Pedro was wrong
I haven't done a research since the start of that civil war and memory might fail somewhat Yemen: Not taking sides on either faction, but it seems that the original victims (the Oufti near-shiite minority, for which Iran has supported) had actually won its autonomy - prompting the Saudis jumping in for the sunite oppressors that had lost the battle. It's only a matter of time before troubles spread to Oman with the Saudis, whose Zyiadhist religious current majority is also closer to shiism than sunniism. I would really hate that Oman gets into internal troubles, because it is one of those rare countries that actually makes me dream of visting in that area - especially that its longtime sultan dies d some 18 months ago (now replaced by his brother) and he kept in country far from troubles and modernized it without crushing its population (btw, the deceased sultan was gay - not overtly though - which is a total nono in Islam) It seems that the Saudis are quite anxious being caught in a vice-grip by shiism "winning" in both Yemen and Oman in its south with Qatar (also shiite, btw- in its eastetrn front. And there are also shiite minorities in Iraq and Bahrein. The Emirates (Dubaï/Dhabi) are mostly sunnis, though. AFAIAC, I think shiism is actually better for us westerners and "far orientals" (despite the Ayatollahs/Iran stuff), because it has a structure (somewhat pyramidal like catholics) as opposed to sunnis that have no structure - leaving the local imams doing pretty much as they wish. So making a deal with a structured religion might be easier than with a mostly-incontrollable sunnism. Actually despite the fact that sunnis hate shiites in popular castes (the other way is less acrimonous, i understand), the higher castes of sunni have a great respect for the shiite who are more erudite and nave a much greater theological science of islam. Which is why the Saudis (wahabites sunnis who were mostly beduins herders that Churchill empowered to be guardians the sacred mecca & Medina grounds after the Ottoman debacle) hate them. Churchill actually had chosen the saudis precisely because they were "just about the stupidest and most backwards arabs on the peninsula" and therefore more "maleable" .
Edited by Sean Trane - April 09 2022 at 04:01 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20616 |
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Roger sided with the takeover of Crimea, where Putin also slaughtered many innocent citizens. Case closed, I'm afraid.
Edited by SteveG - April 09 2022 at 10:02 |
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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As per my post above, he didn’t actually side with Russia/Putin at all, when it came to Crimea. He was portrayed as siding with Russia, but this was based on things he said out of context. Waters has never been a fan of Putin, but he has often identified what he rightly assumes to be Putin’s justifications, and this has sometimes been taken to be him agreeing with those justifications, which is not the same thing at all. And because Waters ultimately doesn’t really agree with arbitrarily imposed borders, and has Lennon-like uptopian dreams of a world with no need for such borders, he often looks to peaceful pragmatism over what he considers needless deaths in the name of a country, when it is generally nothing to do with the country, so much as its leaders. You may say he’s a dreamer, but he’s not the only one. And even though it would be nice if his dreams could come true, that’s unlikely, so I often disagree with his views. But his views are largely laudable, if rather naive and quite improbable (if not impossible). |
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SteveG
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Nick, you can sugar coat this all you like. Roger never made a statement condemning the murder of innocent citizens in the Crimea. If he's a dreamer than I certainly hope he's the only one.
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Sean Trane
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Nick, Forget trying to get some sense from the heavily visually-impaired Steve. Crimea's annexion was almost bloodless since 97% of the inhabitants are Russians and +/- agreed to it. Just as his Ukro-European avatar shows that his impairement is not just visual (fat chance that Ukraine will one day be EU, even if UK-raine one days returns to it), but also intellectual: the gangrene has metastased in his whole skull. Edited by Sean Trane - April 10 2022 at 05:12 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Actually, the takeover of Crimea was relatively bloodless - and this was probably one of the reasons why the West didn’t really react. There were very few deaths, so the “slaughtering kd many innocent citizens” wasn’t from the Crimean occupation, per se. If you follow the timeline, the slaughter began after the Crimean occupation, when it became clear that Russia was using Crimea only as a starting point, and that it wanted to take over the Donbas. There were only tens of deaths in the occupation of Crimea (and in fact several sources, including Ukrainian ones that are certainly independent of Russian influence, suggest that the death toll was less than ten!), but there have been thousands of deaths since 2014, during the Donbas conflict. It is strange that people know about the Crimean invasion in 2014, that effectively kickstarted the war in Ukraine which is ongoing to this day, but don’t know about what has been happening in the Donbas. So, no, Waters never commented on the slaughter of many innocent citizens when it came to the 2014 occupation, because it would seem credible that they never occurred. If they had, you can absolutely be assured that Waters would have had something to say about it - as he always does when there is needless loss of human life. What he did do, and what has been twisted and misconstrued, was point out why it could be claimed that Crimea might be more Russian than Ukrainian, based on history, and the arbitrary nature of not just borders in general, but the Ukrainian border concerning Crimea in particular. He also pointed out that it was not the fault of any of the Crimean peoples, but the actions of the leaders of countries outside Ukraine. Without going in to whether or not I agree with him, he pointed out that the intervention of the US in changing the government of the Ukraine probably has as much to do with Putin feeling he could “take back” Crimea, as anything else. Because of the lack of loss of life, and how (relatively speaking) easy the transition of power in Crimea was from Ukrainian to Russian, Waters could be seen to take the side of Russia, but ultimately all he did was congratulate both countries on “allowing” (even if someone one-sided and forced) Russia to occupy Ukraine. That has been overwhelmingly taken to mean he was on Russia’s side, but all he was actually saying was, thank goodness it didn’t turn into a bloodbath. Unfortunately, it did turn into a bloodbath, because of Russian ambitions to take the Donbas. And while you could say that Waters had nothing to say about this, very few people did. There was a lot of media coverage about Crimea in 2014. There has been even more coverage of the war in Ukraine this year. But in the eight years between, while the war was ongoing, very little was said by anybody. So, we have Waters NOT taking sides with Russia in 2014, and Waters NOT taking sides with Russia in 2022. There is no inconsistency, unless you choose to believe read the selected quotes from Waters, taken out of context. I think Waters is a bit of a dickhead, but I also think the demonisation of him is unfair. We need people like Waters to speak out against the atrocities and injustices in this world. We don’t need to like him, and we don’t need to agree with everything he says. But he’s nowhere near as bad as some people say. Any hypocrisy or inconsistency in what he appears to say is usually down to how he has been reported in the media, rather than what he has actually said. |
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Woon Deadn
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There is very little to be taken as funny in the recent events in Ukraine, but there's sure two big ironies present.
As for the topic, Pink Floyd are Brits, and the song in Ukrainian was actually dedicated to the Ukrainian Sich Riflemen - the military unit of Austro-Hungarian army that, at least technically, fought AGAINST the Brits and Americans (and Russians!) in WWI. Strange enough, NO Western media dare mention that fact - they're all just saying it was a WWI song, but from which side is not said anywhere. Why? It's just an irony of history! What's the use of such self-censorship? I think, Roger Waters who lost his father in WWII where again Austria and Hungary fought AGAINST the Brits and Americans (and Russians!), wouldn't have liked the idea of being anyhow related to quite such a song, in any case... The second moment of irony lies in the fact that a) the song was obviously pro-Communist, and the post-2014 Ukraine is rampantly anti-Communist, there was held a nation-wide decommunization, hundreds of the cities/streets were renamed, Communist time's signs were removed, wearing them, demonstrating them publicly is prohibited; b) the song was clearly atheist, and the overwhelming majority of Ukrainian population is traditionally, at least technically, Orthodox Christian. There's always a moment for good laugh even in such dark times, that is. |
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Sean Trane
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From the other thread;:
I was wondering about this
Could it be that Gilmour got sucked into this ?? Not forgetting the amazing amounts of pogroms that took place in those Western Ukrainian and southern Polish regions parts during the second half of the XIXth C. One more proof that the Ukrainian propaganda cannot be trusted anymore than the Russian counterpart
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Easy Money
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Re Woon: considering the amount of dead children, raped women and raped children. Cities destroyed and citizens needlessly executed. I do not see anything to laugh about. Not to mention what pooten is doing to his own people. One thing that this tragedy has enforced for me, some people have no sense of empathy.
Edited by Easy Money - April 11 2022 at 07:24 |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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^ The translated lyrics have been given almost every time that the song has been promoted, so there has been nothing hidden in that regard. It also doesn’t really make a difference who the Ukrainians were fighting when it was originally sung, either. As Wood says, it is merely an amusing irony.
That said, the transliteration given is surely not exact/literal, as it still rhymes in English. But I presume the meaning has not been changed, so much as some of the diction to keep it poetic. In the meadow a red viburnum has bent down low, Our Glorious Ukraine has been troubled so. And we’ll take that red viburnum and we will raise it up. And we, our Glorious Ukraine, shall - hey, hey - rise up and rejoice. The viburnum is a both a national symbol for Ukraine, and (because of its deep red colour) the blood people shed for its freedom. It may have been written about a different oppressor, and it may be that historic oppressor who is now performing the song, but it doesn’t alter the intent or meaning. |
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Easy Money
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^ The real irony is that someone like Woon would nitpick over lyrics in the face of such an extreme tragedy. I praise those that are reaching out to help the victims, and I send money for medical needs.
Also, Roger Waters gave his reasons for not participating, and they have notheing to do with what Woon claims. Edited by Easy Money - April 11 2022 at 07:31 |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
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Woon Deadn
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You see in my posts what you want to see, not what I wrote about. It is your sovereign right to see what you want to see. I can't deny your right to misinterpret my words. The darker the times are the more the people suffering want to find something funny in life. I indeed have a sense of empathy, but I also have a sense of an irony of history.
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Easy Money
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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Woon Deadn
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The lyrics are not a secret, have never been. There is nothing anti-British, nothing hostile at all in them. You'd better read them yourself before accusing me of something. It's not the problem of lyrics, I have just noted that the times change, the initial concepts change, the former enemies become allies. I have found it ironical. That's a true irony of history. Also, I haven't said that Roger Waters thought about such sophisticated stuff when he refused to participate. Unfortunately, again, you see what you want to see. That's your personal right and responsibility.
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Easy Money
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Edited by Easy Money - April 11 2022 at 08:32 |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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Woon Deadn
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I do not tend to mock at anyone and said on several occasions that I am not a fan of Putin. If you pretend to know me better than I myself, that only shows your lack of respect. You think that by mutilating the people's names you sound wise, but you indeed act like a teenager. Excuse me, but I am not going to answer your posts any more, with no exceptions. You are blinded by emotions. You look and act stupid. There's nothing adult in what you have written here to me, at all.
Edited by Woon Deadn - April 11 2022 at 07:55 |
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Easy Money
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^ I have been following your posts from the beginning of you showing up. I can bring them all back up if you want me to. I have never seen you post anything positive about those that oppose pooten, including Navalney and others, and I am not surprised my disrespecting his name bothers you, I expected that.
Edited by Easy Money - April 11 2022 at 07:59 |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
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Woon Deadn
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Yes, I didn't think that my post could be misinterpreted, for I thought that everybody had already read the translation of the lyrics into English. Anyway, there was a historical irony in the very fact of using quite that song. It looks like my explanations in English are still not perfect.
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Woon Deadn
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Sir, I must claim, you act like an idiot teenager. Fare thee 'ell!
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