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omphaloskepsis View Drop Down
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Points: 6801 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 10:35
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

8) The original sin of this war is therefore the enlargement of NATO to the East...

I'm sorry Lorenzo, but continuing this statement seems to me blatantly ignoring who's at the origin of this war. I understand you don't like NATO, but NATO never attacked Russia. So please, explain me what should be a decent reason for Russia to attack Ukraine!

NATO is an American Offensive Military organization posing as a defensive military organization.  Shakespeare wrote, " " A rose by any other name would smell as sweet " .  The NATO name disguises it's true intention.  How so?

NATO was created to stave off USSR aggression.  Why wasn't NATO disbanded when the USSR was broken up?  NATO beefed up it's expansion, engulfing the entirety of Eastern Europe up to Russia's doorstep. If that were the sum total of NATO, perhaps Russia should not have worried.  However, a crucial caveat hid behind NATO's name and fooled the world.

America.  America runs NATO.  America pumps more money into NATO then all the other countries combined. (By a long shot!)   American has started more wars than any other country on Earth, since WW II.  America has killed more people in war than any other country on Earth, since WW II.  America hates Russia. The American media has blamed everything on Russia for the last ten years. The majority of American politicians blame Russia.  American blamed Russia for Trump's election.  

Yes, the fact that Zellenskyy asked Ukraine be made a member of NATO on Jan 14th and Feb. 14th of this year can only be interpreted as an American move to employ nuclear missiles a few hundred miles from Moscow. What would America do if a China/Russia alliance deployed nukes in Mexico, on America's border?

 "What's in a name? That which we call NATO by any other name would still bomb, destroy, and maim. Thou art a part of the American War Machine!"

NATO began the same year (1949) that The United States Department of War changed it's name to The United States Department of Defense. It's been Offensive ever since. 



Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 22 2022 at 10:54
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Points: 6052 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 10:37
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Your disingenuous headline says 'putin must be stopped', but then you continue with your usual concessions to him. putin would most certainly agree with much of what you posted. Basically you keep posting the same thing over and over and all of it is insulting to the victims of this genocide.

Given that it is very difficult for me to dialogue with you, having repeatedly seen the total lack of respect with which you address me (the last is this):

"Kind of ironic that someone who is here doing putin's dirty work is a member of Amnesty International. Maybe that person is trying to bring the organization down from the inside."

what I can tell you is that I strongly disagree with what you write: I am not insulting the Ukrainian victims in any way and I am not posting "the same thing". And if I (along with many European intellectuals, diplomats, historians, politicians) believe that the enlargement of NATO to the East was a serious mistake, I say it, and I don't care if Putin likes this or not, as well as I dont care if other things I write may not please Putin. I am not at war with Putin: dont care about him or Zelensky or Biden. I have opened this thread of analysis and reflections on the invasion of Ukraine to get out of the logic of the war and dialogue with respect on the respective information and opinions, in order to understand the origins of this war and the possible solutions. 

I am providing, as far as I can, my own contributions and contributions from experts from various political 
backgrounds and with different ideas, and I am facing many different and sometimes conflicting discourses, such as this last interview compared to others interviews I have posted. And I have no problem with what you post, be it information, videos, or proposals to help Ukrainian refugees financially.

In my opinion, it is you, along with others, who obsessively continue to attack me on some positions that I have already fully explained, for the simple fact that you do not share those opinions. And in this way you, along with others, continue to return to the same topics, and with the usual tones marked by personal attack, for the declared purpose of closing the thread.

Instead, I prefer to continue to propose analyzes and information and reflections and discuss the merits. I would prefer if you wanted to comment on the interview with Sapelli that I just posted and say where you think it is valid, where you think it is defective. But you are free to do what you want. In anycase, you will forgive me if I continue not to reply to comments in which you accuse me of doing Putin's dirty work or something like that.
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 11:03
^ Lorenzo, would you please stop your personal attacks. If you can't converse without attacking me personally, maybe you should stay out of this. This is the third time I have asked you to stop the personal attacks.

Edited by Easy Money - March 22 2022 at 11:14
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 11:16
Of all the gut wrenching videos coming out of this war, this may be the worst. putin's cowardly army opens fire on citizens, including children.

https://t.me/nexta_live/22809
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Points: 15151 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 11:40
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Lorenzo, would you please stop your personal attacks. If you can't converse without attacking me personally, maybe you should stay out of this. This is the third time I have asked you to stop the personal attacks.

Honestly, from my point of view (which on the general subject tends to agree with you far more than with Lorenzo), this is very biased. I have seen clearly worse attacks on Lorenzo by you and others, and those came before Lorenzo wrote anything personal.
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Points: 6801 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 11:47
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Of all the gut wrenching videos coming out of this war, this may be the worst. putin's cowardly army opens fire on citizens, including children.

https://t.me/nexta_live/22809

Just researched this. 

  Crowd in Kherson were dispersed with the help of stun grenades and tear gas. Watch the entire video.  You won't see a single person fall to the ground. That because the Russians were not shooting bullets.  Last month, Justin Trudeau used stun grenades and tear gas against the Trucker protesters. The media praised Trudeau. 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 22 2022 at 11:48
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Points: 15151 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 11:47
@Lorenzo: The last analysis you posted, despite having some points very worthy of consideration, has the same weakness that I see in your contributions all along. There has been a link about "Westsplaining" earlier that makes this point quite clearly. The non-Russian Eastern European people have no place in it. NATO extension after 1990 is discussed in terms of the US, Western Europe, and Russia, but there is no discussion whatsoever of the legitimate security concerns of Hungary, Lithuania, Poland... So this was a "mistake" apparently, by pointing out an issue but not discussing the positive reasons for this to have happened at all.

About the Ukrainians, Sapelli just says this:
Quote
Ukraine has always been a multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic nation, and they have always fought each other.
That's not worthy of a historian and shows a serious lack of respect for the Ukrainians, and not only because they are currently under attack.


Edited by Lewian - March 22 2022 at 11:49
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:01
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Of all the gut wrenching videos coming out of this war, this may be the worst. putin's cowardly army opens fire on citizens, including children.

https://t.me/nexta_live/22809


Just researched this. 

  Crowd in Kherson were dispersed with the help of stun grenades and tear gas. Watch the entire video.  You won't see a single person fall to the ground. That because the Russians were not shooting bullets.  Last month, Justin Trudeau used stun grenades and tear gas against the Trucker protesters. The media praised Trudeau. 

Thank you for correcting that. It is quite a horrific scene. I thought I saw someone drop in the first part of the video. You can certainly tell everyone is scared to death.
For the record though, there have been attacks on civilians.

Edited by Easy Money - March 22 2022 at 12:01
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:06
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Lorenzo, would you please stop your personal attacks. If you can't converse without attacking me personally, maybe you should stay out of this. This is the third time I have asked you to stop the personal attacks.

Honestly, from my point of view (which on the general subject tends to agree with you far more than with Lorenzo), this is very biased. I have seen clearly worse attacks on Lorenzo by you and others, and those came before Lorenzo wrote anything personal.
You are a good guy Lewian, so I don't want to go on about this, but Lorenzo is just more under handed in his put downs, not quite so obvious. Anyway, enough on this, I'm only here to support the victims and condemn the invaders and those who make excuses for the invaders.
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Points: 6737 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:12
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

This may have been posted before, but I think it might make interesting reading for some. There are definitely some Westsplainers who post in this thread…. 😜



I didn’t mention Lorenzo by name, but maybe I should have. Too many of your arguments, Lorenzo, reek of Westsplaining.
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Points: 20617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:17
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

8) The original sin of this war is therefore the enlargement of NATO to the East...

I'm sorry Lorenzo, but continuing this statement seems to me blatantly ignoring who's at the origin of this war. I understand you don't like NATO, but NATO never attacked Russia. So please, explain me what should be a decent reason for Russia to attack Ukraine!

NATO is an American Offensive Military organization posing as a defensive military organization.  Shakespeare wrote, " " A rose by any other name would smell as sweet " .  The NATO name disguises it's true intention.  How so?

NATO was created to stave off USSR aggression.  Why wasn't NATO disbanded when the USSR was broken up?  NATO beefed up it's expansion, engulfing the entirety of Eastern Europe up to Russia's doorstep. If that were the sum total of NATO, perhaps Russia should not have worried.  However, a crucial caveat hid behind NATO's name and fooled the world.

America.  America runs NATO.  America pumps more money into NATO then all the other countries combined. (By a long shot!)   American has started more wars than any other country on Earth, since WW II.  America has killed more people in war than any other country on Earth, since WW II.  America hates Russia. The American media has blamed everything on Russia for the last ten years. The majority of American politicians blame Russia.  American blamed Russia for Trump's election.  

Yes, the fact that Zellenskyy asked Ukraine be made a member of NATO on Jan 14th and Feb. 14th of this year can only be interpreted as an American move to employ nuclear missiles a few hundred miles from Moscow. What would America do if a China/Russia alliance deployed nukes in Mexico, on America's border?

 "What's in a name? That which we call NATO by any other name would still bomb, destroy, and maim. Thou art a part of the American War Machine!"

NATO began the same year (1949) that The United States Department of War changed it's name to The United States Department of Defense. It's been Offensive ever since. 

NATO stayed active after the early 90s because no European trusted the Russian government as far as they could throw them. There was the distinct possibility that the old guard KGB, like Putin, who were the privileged in the old regime, would have a coup and restore the old Soviet government. Putin has done much the same but installed himself as a dictator instead. Thank God for NATO, for they saw something in the future that was just as bad as the old USSR.

Btw, I don't know why folks like you have to print in bold face. Do you think it makes your "opinions" more forceful somehow? Or seem more truthful?


Edited by SteveG - March 22 2022 at 12:18
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Points: 20414 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:37




Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Thank God for NATO, for they saw something in the future that was just as bad as the old USSR.


I don't think they "saw" anything remotely like that during the 90's. They just remained active because the soldiers were getting paid and thought the ride/money was good enough not to get off the train.

And leave your unexisting deity out of thisClownEvil Smile


Edited by Sean Trane - March 22 2022 at 14:05
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:41
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

This may have been posted before, but I think it might make interesting reading for some. There are definitely some Westsplainers who post in this thread…. 😜




I didn’t mention Lorenzo by name, but maybe I should have. Too many of your arguments, Lorenzo, reek of Westsplaining.

Yes, I'm tired of hearing about how the US and Russia need to get together and decide Ukraine's fate. Thats just old European colonialism, it belongs in an era a few centuries back. I think Ukraine has easily shown they can think and act for themselves.
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:47
Re SteveG: "... because no European trusted the Russian government as far as they could throw them."

Very true. I have never known an East European with a positive view of the Russian government, the Russian people sure, but not their aggressive government.
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Points: 2707 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 13:06
An interesting analysis from a Ukrainian journalist, who is also a visiting scholar at Johns Hopkins University (SAIS):
https://imrussia.org/en/analysis/3438-a-big-war-in-ukraine-the-kremlin%E2%80%99s-goals-and-consequences-for-world-politics




Edited by Archisorcerus - March 22 2022 at 13:09
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 13:40
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

An interesting analysis from a Ukrainian journalist, who is also a visiting scholar at Johns Hopkins University (SAIS):
https://imrussia.org/en/analysis/3438-a-big-war-in-ukraine-the-kremlin%E2%80%99s-goals-and-consequences-for-world-politics




Thanks, a much better read than some other stuff that has been dropped off here.
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Points: 6801 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 13:41
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re SteveG: "... because no European trusted the Russian government as far as they could throw them."

Very true. I have never known an East European with a positive view of the Russian government, the Russian people sure, but not their aggressive government.

I disagree.  The USSR (Russia) had just freed all the Eastern European countries. All of those Eastern European Countries set free! 
The USA, Germany, France, promised Russia that in return....NATO would not advance one inch east!  
You could argue that USA, Germany, and France kept their word.  They did not advance an inch. They advanced over a thousand miles east, gobbling up all the Eastern European Countries.  Who broke their word?  Russia or NATO?  Clearly, America/ NATO.  America has funded NATO over 6.5 Trillion dollars. America runs NATO. 

Since the USSR broke up...who has bombed more countries and killed more people?  America or Russia?  America by a long shot. It's not even close. 

  




Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 22 2022 at 13:53
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 13:58
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re SteveG: "... because no European trusted the Russian government as far as they could throw them."

Very true. I have never known an East European with a positive view of the Russian government, the Russian people sure, but not their aggressive government.


I disagree.  The USSR (Russia) had just freed all the Eastern European countries. All of those Eastern European Countries set free! 
The USA, Germany, France, promised Russia that in return....NATO would not advance one inch east!  
You could argue that USA, Germany, and France kept their word.  They did not advance an inch. They advanced over a thousand miles east, gobbling up all the Eastern European Countries.  Who broke their word?  Russia or NATO?  Clearly, America/ NATO.  America has funded NATO over 6.5 Trillion dollars. America runs NATO. 

Since the USSR broke up...who has bombed more countries and killed more people?  America or Russia?  America by a long shot. It's not even close. 

  




I'm talking about while I was there visiting with people. I'm not sure what your source is.


Edited by Easy Money - March 22 2022 at 13:59
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Points: 20617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 14:20
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:





Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Thank God for NATO, for they saw something in the future that was just as bad as the old USSR.



I don't think they "saw" anything remotely like that during the 90's. They just remained active because the soldiers were getting paid and thought the ride/money was good enough not to get off the train.

And leave your unexisting deity out of thisClownEvil Smile

Sean, whatever your pet peeve is with NATO picking on poor little Belgium, it pales in comparison of what the world would be like without it. Scared and apprehensive about how far Putin would go after destroying Ukraine. And in case you're in a coma, he is leveling the country to the ground. If that's not enough to snap you out of your trance, I don't know what else will. So, once again, thank God for NATO, for they keep the continent you cherish safe from a lunatic. As for the NATO countries being psychic, they didn't have to be. Only mindful of the corruption that permeated Russia to its core. And always will.
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Points: 20617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 14:29
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

[QUOTE=Easy Money]Re SteveG: "... because no European trusted the Russian government as far as they could throw them."

Very true. I have never known an East European with a positive view of the Russian government, the Russian people sure, but not their aggressive government.


I disagree.  The USSR (Russia) had just freed all the Eastern European countries. All of those Eastern European Countries set free! 
The USA, Germany, France, promised Russia that in return....NATO would not advance one inch east!  
You could argue that USA, Germany, and France kept their word.  They did not advance an inch. They advanced over a thousand miles east, gobbling up all the Eastern European Countries.  Who broke their word?  Russia or NATO?  Clearly, America/ NATO.  America has funded NATO over 6.5 Trillion dollars. America runs NATO. 

Since the USSR broke up...who has bombed more countries and killed more people?  America or Russia?  America by a long shot. It's not even close. 

  


__________________________________________________

[QUOTE] Did America level entire cities like Russia did in Syria? And what is with this false equivalency? Putin aims to level the entire country of Ukraine and kill millions if he has to. Is America worse than that? If you think so than perhaps Russia is a better home for you.




Edited by SteveG - March 22 2022 at 14:33
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