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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 13:06
An interesting analysis from a Ukrainian journalist, who is also a visiting scholar at Johns Hopkins University (SAIS):
https://imrussia.org/en/analysis/3438-a-big-war-in-ukraine-the-kremlin%E2%80%99s-goals-and-consequences-for-world-politics




Edited by Archisorcerus - March 22 2022 at 13:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:47
Re SteveG: "... because no European trusted the Russian government as far as they could throw them."

Very true. I have never known an East European with a positive view of the Russian government, the Russian people sure, but not their aggressive government.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:41
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

This may have been posted before, but I think it might make interesting reading for some. There are definitely some Westsplainers who post in this thread…. 😜




I didn’t mention Lorenzo by name, but maybe I should have. Too many of your arguments, Lorenzo, reek of Westsplaining.

Yes, I'm tired of hearing about how the US and Russia need to get together and decide Ukraine's fate. Thats just old European colonialism, it belongs in an era a few centuries back. I think Ukraine has easily shown they can think and act for themselves.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:37




Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Thank God for NATO, for they saw something in the future that was just as bad as the old USSR.


I don't think they "saw" anything remotely like that during the 90's. They just remained active because the soldiers were getting paid and thought the ride/money was good enough not to get off the train.

And leave your unexisting deity out of thisClownEvil Smile


Edited by Sean Trane - March 22 2022 at 14:05
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:17
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

8) The original sin of this war is therefore the enlargement of NATO to the East...

I'm sorry Lorenzo, but continuing this statement seems to me blatantly ignoring who's at the origin of this war. I understand you don't like NATO, but NATO never attacked Russia. So please, explain me what should be a decent reason for Russia to attack Ukraine!

NATO is an American Offensive Military organization posing as a defensive military organization.  Shakespeare wrote, " " A rose by any other name would smell as sweet " .  The NATO name disguises it's true intention.  How so?

NATO was created to stave off USSR aggression.  Why wasn't NATO disbanded when the USSR was broken up?  NATO beefed up it's expansion, engulfing the entirety of Eastern Europe up to Russia's doorstep. If that were the sum total of NATO, perhaps Russia should not have worried.  However, a crucial caveat hid behind NATO's name and fooled the world.

America.  America runs NATO.  America pumps more money into NATO then all the other countries combined. (By a long shot!)   American has started more wars than any other country on Earth, since WW II.  America has killed more people in war than any other country on Earth, since WW II.  America hates Russia. The American media has blamed everything on Russia for the last ten years. The majority of American politicians blame Russia.  American blamed Russia for Trump's election.  

Yes, the fact that Zellenskyy asked Ukraine be made a member of NATO on Jan 14th and Feb. 14th of this year can only be interpreted as an American move to employ nuclear missiles a few hundred miles from Moscow. What would America do if a China/Russia alliance deployed nukes in Mexico, on America's border?

 "What's in a name? That which we call NATO by any other name would still bomb, destroy, and maim. Thou art a part of the American War Machine!"

NATO began the same year (1949) that The United States Department of War changed it's name to The United States Department of Defense. It's been Offensive ever since. 

NATO stayed active after the early 90s because no European trusted the Russian government as far as they could throw them. There was the distinct possibility that the old guard KGB, like Putin, who were the privileged in the old regime, would have a coup and restore the old Soviet government. Putin has done much the same but installed himself as a dictator instead. Thank God for NATO, for they saw something in the future that was just as bad as the old USSR.

Btw, I don't know why folks like you have to print in bold face. Do you think it makes your "opinions" more forceful somehow? Or seem more truthful?


Edited by SteveG - March 22 2022 at 12:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:12
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

This may have been posted before, but I think it might make interesting reading for some. There are definitely some Westsplainers who post in this thread…. 😜



I didn’t mention Lorenzo by name, but maybe I should have. Too many of your arguments, Lorenzo, reek of Westsplaining.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:06
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Lorenzo, would you please stop your personal attacks. If you can't converse without attacking me personally, maybe you should stay out of this. This is the third time I have asked you to stop the personal attacks.

Honestly, from my point of view (which on the general subject tends to agree with you far more than with Lorenzo), this is very biased. I have seen clearly worse attacks on Lorenzo by you and others, and those came before Lorenzo wrote anything personal.
You are a good guy Lewian, so I don't want to go on about this, but Lorenzo is just more under handed in his put downs, not quite so obvious. Anyway, enough on this, I'm only here to support the victims and condemn the invaders and those who make excuses for the invaders.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 12:01
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Of all the gut wrenching videos coming out of this war, this may be the worst. putin's cowardly army opens fire on citizens, including children.

https://t.me/nexta_live/22809


Just researched this. 

  Crowd in Kherson were dispersed with the help of stun grenades and tear gas. Watch the entire video.  You won't see a single person fall to the ground. That because the Russians were not shooting bullets.  Last month, Justin Trudeau used stun grenades and tear gas against the Trucker protesters. The media praised Trudeau. 

Thank you for correcting that. It is quite a horrific scene. I thought I saw someone drop in the first part of the video. You can certainly tell everyone is scared to death.
For the record though, there have been attacks on civilians.

Edited by Easy Money - March 22 2022 at 12:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 11:47
@Lorenzo: The last analysis you posted, despite having some points very worthy of consideration, has the same weakness that I see in your contributions all along. There has been a link about "Westsplaining" earlier that makes this point quite clearly. The non-Russian Eastern European people have no place in it. NATO extension after 1990 is discussed in terms of the US, Western Europe, and Russia, but there is no discussion whatsoever of the legitimate security concerns of Hungary, Lithuania, Poland... So this was a "mistake" apparently, by pointing out an issue but not discussing the positive reasons for this to have happened at all.

About the Ukrainians, Sapelli just says this:
Quote
Ukraine has always been a multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic nation, and they have always fought each other.
That's not worthy of a historian and shows a serious lack of respect for the Ukrainians, and not only because they are currently under attack.


Edited by Lewian - March 22 2022 at 11:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 11:47
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Of all the gut wrenching videos coming out of this war, this may be the worst. putin's cowardly army opens fire on citizens, including children.

https://t.me/nexta_live/22809

Just researched this. 

  Crowd in Kherson were dispersed with the help of stun grenades and tear gas. Watch the entire video.  You won't see a single person fall to the ground. That because the Russians were not shooting bullets.  Last month, Justin Trudeau used stun grenades and tear gas against the Trucker protesters. The media praised Trudeau. 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 22 2022 at 11:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 11:40
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Lorenzo, would you please stop your personal attacks. If you can't converse without attacking me personally, maybe you should stay out of this. This is the third time I have asked you to stop the personal attacks.

Honestly, from my point of view (which on the general subject tends to agree with you far more than with Lorenzo), this is very biased. I have seen clearly worse attacks on Lorenzo by you and others, and those came before Lorenzo wrote anything personal.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 11:16
Of all the gut wrenching videos coming out of this war, this may be the worst. putin's cowardly army opens fire on citizens, including children.

https://t.me/nexta_live/22809
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 11:03
^ Lorenzo, would you please stop your personal attacks. If you can't converse without attacking me personally, maybe you should stay out of this. This is the third time I have asked you to stop the personal attacks.

Edited by Easy Money - March 22 2022 at 11:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 10:37
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Your disingenuous headline says 'putin must be stopped', but then you continue with your usual concessions to him. putin would most certainly agree with much of what you posted. Basically you keep posting the same thing over and over and all of it is insulting to the victims of this genocide.

Given that it is very difficult for me to dialogue with you, having repeatedly seen the total lack of respect with which you address me (the last is this):

"Kind of ironic that someone who is here doing putin's dirty work is a member of Amnesty International. Maybe that person is trying to bring the organization down from the inside."

what I can tell you is that I strongly disagree with what you write: I am not insulting the Ukrainian victims in any way and I am not posting "the same thing". And if I (along with many European intellectuals, diplomats, historians, politicians) believe that the enlargement of NATO to the East was a serious mistake, I say it, and I don't care if Putin likes this or not, as well as I dont care if other things I write may not please Putin. I am not at war with Putin: dont care about him or Zelensky or Biden. I have opened this thread of analysis and reflections on the invasion of Ukraine to get out of the logic of the war and dialogue with respect on the respective information and opinions, in order to understand the origins of this war and the possible solutions. 

I am providing, as far as I can, my own contributions and contributions from experts from various political 
backgrounds and with different ideas, and I am facing many different and sometimes conflicting discourses, such as this last interview compared to others interviews I have posted. And I have no problem with what you post, be it information, videos, or proposals to help Ukrainian refugees financially.

In my opinion, it is you, along with others, who obsessively continue to attack me on some positions that I have already fully explained, for the simple fact that you do not share those opinions. And in this way you, along with others, continue to return to the same topics, and with the usual tones marked by personal attack, for the declared purpose of closing the thread.

Instead, I prefer to continue to propose analyzes and information and reflections and discuss the merits. I would prefer if you wanted to comment on the interview with Sapelli that I just posted and say where you think it is valid, where you think it is defective. But you are free to do what you want. In anycase, you will forgive me if I continue not to reply to comments in which you accuse me of doing Putin's dirty work or something like that.


Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 10:35
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

8) The original sin of this war is therefore the enlargement of NATO to the East...

I'm sorry Lorenzo, but continuing this statement seems to me blatantly ignoring who's at the origin of this war. I understand you don't like NATO, but NATO never attacked Russia. So please, explain me what should be a decent reason for Russia to attack Ukraine!

NATO is an American Offensive Military organization posing as a defensive military organization.  Shakespeare wrote, " " A rose by any other name would smell as sweet " .  The NATO name disguises it's true intention.  How so?

NATO was created to stave off USSR aggression.  Why wasn't NATO disbanded when the USSR was broken up?  NATO beefed up it's expansion, engulfing the entirety of Eastern Europe up to Russia's doorstep. If that were the sum total of NATO, perhaps Russia should not have worried.  However, a crucial caveat hid behind NATO's name and fooled the world.

America.  America runs NATO.  America pumps more money into NATO then all the other countries combined. (By a long shot!)   American has started more wars than any other country on Earth, since WW II.  America has killed more people in war than any other country on Earth, since WW II.  America hates Russia. The American media has blamed everything on Russia for the last ten years. The majority of American politicians blame Russia.  American blamed Russia for Trump's election.  

Yes, the fact that Zellenskyy asked Ukraine be made a member of NATO on Jan 14th and Feb. 14th of this year can only be interpreted as an American move to employ nuclear missiles a few hundred miles from Moscow. What would America do if a China/Russia alliance deployed nukes in Mexico, on America's border?

 "What's in a name? That which we call NATO by any other name would still bomb, destroy, and maim. Thou art a part of the American War Machine!"

NATO began the same year (1949) that The United States Department of War changed it's name to The United States Department of Defense. It's been Offensive ever since. 



Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 22 2022 at 10:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 10:31
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

<h2 ="line"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin-top: 0.5rem; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 2.5rem; letter-spacing: -0.05rem; line-height: 1; font-family: din-2014, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Biden says Russia 'exploring' cyberattacks against U.S.</h2><p ="dek"="" style="-sizing: border-; margin: 0.5rem 0px 0px; font-family: Georgia, Times, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px; line-height: 1.4; color: rgb105, 109, 112;">President Joe Biden on Monday warned U.S. companies to be on guard against Russian cyberattacks.


Source: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/21/biden-russia-cyberattacks-00018942

Well, Russia is famous for "cracking" American technologies, but I highly doubt if they can win cyber-wars against the USA.


That's disturbing. America could run a false flag cyber attack and blame Russia.  Russia is winning. Why would they want America and NATO to join fight against them?  A Cyber attack against America makes ZERO sense.  

I remember America lying about Weapons of Mass Destruction to get us in Iraq war.  America lied about The Gulf of Tonkin Incident to get USA in Viet Nam.  The media and Joe Biden said Hunter Biden's laptop was a Russian Plot. Turns out the laptop is authentic and contains evidence of Ukraine corruption. 

Russia is winning.  A Cyber, Chemical, or Biological attack is the last thing they would do.  Ukraine has a motive. Get America and NATO in the war.   Victoria Newland (under secretary of state) admitted Bio Labs in Ukraine.  American Defense Department financed over 20 Ukraine Bio-Labs.  That's illegal under International Law.    

 Biden needs War to cover up the horrid Job he's doing. Boost the mid-term elections.  If Biden cared about people he would have kept the Democrat campaign promises. $15 minimum wage, Medicare for All, Student Loan Forgiveness, ect... They don't even talk about those things anymore. They only talk about Medicare For All during Presidential election years.  

The media is preparing people's minds for a false flag that they will blame on Russia.  And Americans will believe it,  like they believed George W. Bush about Iraq Weapons of Mass Destruction. 





Some American's believed GWB, and many didn't. Here in the UK, the mood was far more skeptical. Too many generalisations....

Why would getting into a war which could lead to an extinction level event on Earth be of any political benefit to Jo Biden, or Putin for that matter??

Putin is a mindless psycho and thug. Biden is a doddery old man, but his options are very limited, and so far he's more or less played this correctly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 10:29
In perhaps the most ironic sentencing in modern jurisprudence, Aleksei Navalny, Russian opposition leader who Putin tried to poison to death, but having failed put him in prison, has been sentenced to an additional 9 years for....embezzlement and fraud. There were no mirrors in the courtroom for the prosecutor and judge to look in. LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/22/world/europe/russia-navalny-prison.html

You have to laugh and mock Putin for trying and convicting anyone for embezzlement, when he and his oligarch henchmen (or lackeys, toadies, grunts, vassals, buttonmen, etc.) have syphoned billions from Russia since Putin suspended the democratic process in Russia. What a farce -- as is the pro-Putin contingent on this thread. 

The sooner Putin is lying in a bunker with a bullet in his head, the better for mankind. Hopefully, Navalny will survive his imprisonment and live to see a free Russia. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 09:56
Dmitry Medvedev has just issued a stern rebuke to Poland for helping Ukraine. God bless those strong people of Poland with enough guts and integrity to stand up to evil. They are no pacifists.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 09:44
^ Your disingenuous headline says 'putin must be stopped', but then you continue with your usual concessions to him. putin would most certainly agree with much of what you posted. Basically you keep posting the same thing over and over and all of it is insulting to the victims of this genocide.

Edited by Easy Money - March 22 2022 at 09:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2022 at 09:34
PUTIN MUST BE STOPPED

I submit to you this analysis (taken from an Italian Newspaper) by one of the leading Italian economic policy experts, former professor in London and Buenos Aires. I consider it very interesting and above all free from ideological prejudices and free from the logic of war. This expert is not a politician, although he has his own political views (probably right-wing). I do NOT agree with everything he writes, but I believe what he says is plausible. As you will see, like me, he too considers the enlargement of NATO in Eastern Europe a serious mistake, but also the economic sanctions and the sending of weapons to Ukraine; however, unlike what I think, this expert proposes that NATO deploy its troops on the eastern borders of Europe, because he believes that Putin can only be stopped with a show of force. Furthermore, he paints a rather disturbing portrait of Putin and the mystical-political evolution of Russia. I believe that what he says should be taken into consideration.


A month have passed since the start of the war in Ukraine which has thrown the world into a new phase of relations between nations. What does Russia want and what should we expect for the short and long term future? We talk about it with Professor Giulio Sapelli, economics historian, councilor of the Mattei Foundation, author of numerous essays (most recently "In world history. States markets wars" published by Guerini) and a great expert in geopolitics who in the past had the opportunity to personal meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Professor, what does Putin want and on what basis will he agree to sit at a table to stop hostilities?
Putin wants the neutralization of Ukraine and wants the Black Sea not to be contested. He therefore needs to control the Donbass and Odessa. He needs it because Russia thinks of itself as a Eurasian power, from the Pacific to that Atlantic lake that is the Mediterranean. He is present in Syria and shares the dominion of Libya after the Italian state was expelled from the country with the assassination of Gaddafi. The invasion of Ukraine is not a rash move, it is consistent with a strategy which, however, is now being applied incorrectly. With the invasion Putin is completely on the side of the wrong but if you want to go down the path of negotiations, the goal of Kiev's neutrality will have to be granted to him.

Has Russia passed a point of no return or could an end of estility in Ukraine adopt a slow return to "normalcy"?
No, we have to expect difficult years. Putin will not stop and continue to try to destabilize the countries that were once part of the Soviet Union. Moscow is trying at the same time to do this and to keep its power over the Mediterranean while trying to keep China good. In perspective I do not believe in an arrival between Moscow and Beijing, on the contrary Siberia has swamps on China, which is now abandoned. We go through a period of instability, dangerous.

But does Moscow have the strength to do it?
I am convinced that Russia is going through an epochal crisis and that the country is headed for an inexorable decline. It is now an underdeveloped country that thrives on the export of raw materials. As for the technologies now completely from abroad, the country that has long been a winner in the space race, today is not even able to depend on a drone alone. So no, it doesn't have the economic strength to do it, that in Ukraine is the move of a desperate country trying to avoid a doomed fate.

With these premises, can economic sanctions be an effective tool for putting pressure on Moscow?
But when did you ever get involved in politics with sanctions? They are wrong and they are wrong for the simple fact that, like history teach us, they produce the opposite effect but it is randomly taught that what they strengthen is preferred, the Iranian regime is lampate and many could be cited. Sanctions are established, only to be rushed to Maduro when his oil comes in handy, but what credibility can diplomacy have in this way? Another madness is the sending of weapons to Ukraine. But do you think that once the war is over they will give them back? Do we really want to have people shooting themselves with rocket launchers in the heart of Europe? The one that will not end once. Ukraine has always been a multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic nation, and they have always fought each other. Anyone who reads Gogol understands everything… The US and the EU are doing exactly what they shouldn't do.

But what to do then?
NATO should flex its muscles, show that you have an army, deploy it along the borders. The only way to maintain and restore peace is the threat of war.

From this point of view, how do you judge the historic German decision to significantly raise its military spending?
I see it favorably, as a stabilizing factor. As critical as I am with its economic policies, Germany is a fully democratic country. With the exit of Great Britain from the European Union, Berlin and Paris could shape the first nucleus of what should later become a European army.

Someone hopes that an answer will come from the antibodies of the Russian system ...
Too little emphasis has been given to some initiatives of internal dissidence. The Association of Young Diplomats, pupils of Primakov, the Association of Russian Mathematicians, have both taken positions against the invasion. I know the world of Russian dissidence, they are determined and tenacious people, smarter than those in government. They need to be supported.

Every day, Europe pays Moscow around 800 million dollars to buy gas and oil. Should European countries give up Russian supplies?
Granted that I don't think there is full awareness of what this would mean in terms of practical fallout, no, let's not excite the bull. The energy industry has never stopped during the conflicts, the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline now frozen and connecting Russia and Germany should be put into operation.

Are you scared of a nuclear escalation?
Nuclear power has been a constant threat ever since non-proliferation treaties were abandoned in favor of countries like Pakistan. There is no will to use the atomic bomb, not even in Ukraine. But the risk of accidents is very high because there are too many bombs in the world.

Did NATO and Europe make a mistake in including the countries bordering Russia among their members?
Yes, this was an epochal mistake that dramatically accentuated Moscow's sense of encirclement. Thus we moved from a diplomatic management of relations with the West to what I call an armed negotiation. Henry Kissinger considered it an unfortunate choice and I fully agree with his view. But now, of course, going back is impossible.

Professor, in the past you have had the opportunity to personally meet Vladimir Putin. What impression did he make on you?
Until 2012 I took part in the annual meetings that the Russian Novosti agency organized with Western journalists and intellectuals. We met the ministers, the heads of the main authorities and then we went to Putin's dacha which was extremely Spartan. I remember a very different man from what he looks like today, militaristic walk, extremely friendly and open. However, the origin from the KGB was grasped. I remember that he asked me "Professor but you never speak?" I replied that I did not speak because I listened. At that point I asked him if the one with President Medvedev was a simple party game or something more. The answer surprised me a lot because Putin claimed that it was an absolutely real contrast. Using Marxist terminology, he explained to me that he and Medvedev were expressions of two different social economic formations.
Medvedev advocated a subordination of Russia to Western capitalism while he was in favor of restoring the role of the state in economics and politics. Putin has always made it his mission to remedy what he considered the disasters of Boris Yeltsin's presidency (from 1991 to 1998, ed) when entire pieces of the country were sold off in what has become a capitalist co-management of the country with Western states. and the oil monarchies. I then asked Putin what he thought of the theory expressed by the Australian Paul Dibb in the book "Uncompleted Superpower" which describes a Soviet Union engaged during the Cold War in an effort not sufficiently supported by its economic capacity. He replied that he shared this thesis "at least in part".

What do you see different today than Putin at that time?
It seems to me that capable and authoritative advisers have disappeared. Today it seems that he relies a lot on the philosopher Aleksandr Gel'evič Dugin. I am very concerned about this religious mystical drift that reminds a little of the last phases of Adolf Hitler surrounded by people who believed in the powers of the Holy Grail (after the fall of the USSR the weight of the Orthodox Church in the military hierarchies, especially those in charge of managing the nuclear arsenal, has grown exponentially, ed). Moreover, the split between the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox churches contributed to the outbreak of the war. But after all, more generally, we could not hope that a beautiful baby would be born from that monster that was the Soviet Union. Except that while the Soviet Union was moved by a logic of power emanating from the Enlightenment, today it is the daughter of irrationalism. If Putin is not somehow eliminated, we must get used to a long period of intense tension.




Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 22 2022 at 09:44
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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