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omphaloskepsis View Drop Down

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Joined: October 19 2011
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Posted: March 20 2022 at 14:23

suitkees wrote:

^ I really don't know what to think of you anymore, Cindy, but you seem to me so obtuse and dug into a parallel universe that a decent discussion with you seems impossible. What you bring forward now has nothing to do with the current thread's discussion, so, please, be decent, and either stay on topic, or start your own thread or just stay silent.

I thought photos of high ranking Ukrainian officials leaving the Ukraine with 30 million dollars seemed relative. That said, I will delete the photos.

Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 20 2022 at 15:13

suitkees

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Posted: March 20 2022 at 14:39

^ I really don't know what to think of you anymore, Cindy, but you seem to me so obtuse and dug into a parallel universe that a decent discussion with you seems impossible. What you bring forward now has nothing to do with the current thread's discussion, so, please, be decent, and either stay on topic, or start your own thread or just stay silent.

Edited by suitkees - March 20 2022 at 16:18

The razamataz is a pain in the bum

tszirmay

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Posted: March 20 2022 at 14:58

“THE GREATEST LESSON IN LIFE IS TO KNOW THAT EVEN FOOLS ARE RIGHT SOMETIMES.” (WINSTON CHURCHILL) I will add :They can be also on the LEFT

Edited by tszirmay - March 20 2022 at 20:45

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

suitkees

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Posted: March 20 2022 at 15:21

omphaloskepsis wrote:

I thought photos of high ranking Ukrainian officials leaving the Ukraine with 30 million dollars seemed relative. That said, I understand your point...I will delete the photos.

Thank you, Cindy. I don't think that putting forward this kind of possible misconducts (which are typically either staged or brought forward to discredit one party, but are seldomly part of the bigger picture) are contributing to the discussion here. In any war there are misconducts, but that should not blind us about the general implications of the war. Both sides will communicate about details that are either false or just insignificant regarding the bigger issues at hand. Both sides will try to discredit the other. Let's try not to fall into those traps. And let's try to keep us to verified information instead of to rumors and calumny.

And yes, that means that we should trust certain media sources more than others. Some of those might not align with your/mine ideas, but it is up to us to verify through multiple, and possibly contradicting sources.

The razamataz is a pain in the bum

tszirmay

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Posted: March 20 2022 at 15:25

nick_h_nz wrote:

tszirmay wrote:

nick_h_nz wrote:

tszirmay wrote:

The Azov Battalion has 900 members , not much of a state , somewhat smaller than San Marino, Liechtenstein or Andorra. We are talking Ukraine as per the thread title.

Before someone says it, 900 is the lowest approximation for me membership of the Azov Battalion, and the highest approximation I’ve seen is 2,500. Regardless, before Russia upped the ante in their aggressive invasion and occupation of Ukraine (ongoing since 2014j, that 900-2500 was clearly a minority in the more than 200,000 troops that Ukraine had. That 200,000 is now an outdated figure, as with martial law and the volunteering of so many citizens, Ukraine’s defensive force has grown. Already a small percentage of Ukraine’s total military force, the scale and influence of the Azov is now even more over-stated than it previously was.

That’s not to suggest that it should exist, as there is never a place for Nazis. But to suggest that neo-Nazis form a majority of Ukraine’s military, let alone it’s population, is plainly wrong. Let alone the fact that Zelenskyy is a Jew, with clearly centrist views and policies, and is hardly going to agree with the extreme right wing views of the Azov.

[EDIT] The existence of the Azov is problematic, and has been recognised as such from within Ukraine. This is a quote from 2020 from a Ukrainian journalist:

“The Azov movement has long been a symbol of the far-right in Ukraine. It has risen to prominence over the past six years due to its role in the ongoing war against Russia, and has achieved levels of mainstream media exposure far in excess of the group’s minimal electoral support. This is not only a domestic issue for Ukraine. The far-right in general, and their apparent impunity, have significantly damaged Ukraine’s international reputation and left the country vulnerable to hostile narratives exaggerating the role of extremist groups in Ukraine. With awareness of right-wing terrorism now growing globally, the potential threat posed by the Ukrainian far-right beyond the borders of the country is attracting increasing attention.“

Even the name Azov Battalion is somewhat disengenuous as it confers a respectability they don’t really have. They initially called themselves a movement, then a regiment, and now a battalion, but they pretty much remain a bunch of hard-core, right wing hooligans that have taken their aggression away from football stadia and put it against Russians. Because white supremacists are often violent extremists, they’ve proved effective against the Russians, and for this reason, and this reason alone, they were integrated into the National Guard. Was that a mistake? Probably so, but the reasoning behind it is understandable. I don’t for the moment believe they have ever been intended to be a permanent part of the Ukrainian military, but as a temporary measure against Russian aggression, they have done the job. It’s a case of the ends justifying the means, I guess. Whether or not we agree that these means are justifiable is definitely debatable. And, as per the above quote, has been debated within Ukraine.

I am perfectly aware of the 2500-900 number, but if Russia's self-avowed mission is to eradicate the Ukrainian Nazis (by using Russian Nazis BTW) thus precisely targeting said battalion , it could be presumed that the Azov troops have suffered immense losses. Regardless, even 2000 doesn't not make a nation of 44 million Nazis. The same crap happened in Yugoslavia, on all sides....

I was agreeing with you, and pre-emptively defending you, because someone like Cindy could pounce on your figure of 900 (rather than 900-2500) and accuse you of lying or falsifying facts - because that’s the sort of crap she pulls. (The same way she has twisted Mira’s words.)

Hopefully the Azov have suffered immense losses. Hopefully they will no longer be recognised, nor counted as part of the National Guard, once this war is over. But let’s face it, Russia is hardly sticking to their self-avowed mission, or they’d not be shelling schools, hospitals, and places of refuge such as theatres and monasteries.

This is war. This is genocide. No matter how imperfect Ukraine may have been / may be, it and it’s people do not deserve this war. I stand with Ukraine.

Lorenzo gets upset with the use of the word " genocide" , as for his definition, it must entail a minimum of 1 million and up to multiple millionS of corpses (which according to Cindy, are mostly photoshopped). Now this would be interesting only if you had a nation/race/ tribe /society of , say 800,000. By killing them all to the very last one , it would mean it is still not genocide . Confused

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

tszirmay

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Posted: March 20 2022 at 15:29

suitkees wrote:

omphaloskepsis wrote:

I thought photos of high ranking Ukrainian officials leaving the Ukraine with 30 million dollars seemed relative. That said, I understand your point...I will delete the photos.

Especially post mortem, when the truth (or history: aka analyzing BOTH sides arguments and letting the reader decide) surfaces and appropriate action can be taken to get the correct numbers .

Edited by tszirmay - March 20 2022 at 15:29

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

jamesbaldwin View Drop Down

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Posted: March 20 2022 at 17:33

suitkees wrote:

jamesbaldwin wrote:

8) The original sin of this war is therefore the enlargement of NATO to the East...

I'm sorry Lorenzo, but continuing this statement seems to me blatantly ignoring who's at the origin of this war. I understand you don't like NATO, but NATO never attacked Russia. So please, explain me what should be a decent reason for Russia to attack Ukraine!

Kees, tszirmay quoted my starting 10 points (posted in the other thread), saying he disagreed with the eighth, and then asked me some question. I answered him and reposted my 10 starting points, that's all.

According to official news, the three reasons why Russia is waging this war are:

1) Request for a neutral Ukraine

2) Recognition of the Crimea

3) Recognition of the Independence of Donbass.

We don't know though

1) Whether Ukraine is willing to negotiate on these three points

2) If the US is advising Ukraine to resist (they have sent them many weapons) and not to negotiate

3) Is Russia really willing to negotiate just on the basis of these three points

3) Whether Russia is continuing its war of destruction to achieve a situation of dominance that will persuade Ukraine to negotiate or to ask for the annexation of other areas.

My impression is that Zelenskij does not want to negotiate because Ukraine is unwilling to recognize Crimea as part of Russia and autonomous Donbass

Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 20 2022 at 17:34

Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.

tszirmay

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Posted: March 20 2022 at 20:40

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=330515278902132

The speed at which she is bundled off is faster than the Kinzhal ! Its a free speech trap

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

King of Loss View Drop Down

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Posted: March 20 2022 at 21:00

tszirmay wrote:

“THE GREATEST LESSON IN LIFE IS TO KNOW THAT EVEN FOOLS ARE RIGHT SOMETIMES.” (WINSTON CHURCHILL) I will add :They can be also on the LEFT

I hate to be a contrarian, but Winston Churchill was responsible for one of the worst genocides of the 20th century.

tszirmay

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Posted: March 20 2022 at 21:04

King of Loss wrote:

tszirmay wrote:

“THE GREATEST LESSON IN LIFE IS TO KNOW THAT EVEN FOOLS ARE RIGHT SOMETIMES.” (WINSTON CHURCHILL) I will add :They can be also on the LEFT

I hate to be a contrarian, but Winston Churchill was responsible for one of the worst genocides of the 20th century.

That has no bearing on the quote.......You can start a Churchill genocides thread if you wish.....This is specific to this thread.

Edited by tszirmay - March 20 2022 at 21:10

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

tszirmay

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Posted: March 20 2022 at 21:06

jamesbaldwin wrote:

suitkees wrote:

jamesbaldwin wrote:

8) The original sin of this war is therefore the enlargement of NATO to the East...

According to official news, the three reasons why Russia is waging this war are:

1) Request for a neutral Ukraine

2) Recognition of the Crimea

3) Recognition of the Independence of Donbass.

We don't know though

1) Whether Ukraine is willing to negotiate on these three points

2) If the US is advising Ukraine to resist (they have sent them many weapons) and not to negotiate

3) Is Russia really willing to negotiate just on the basis of these three points

3) Whether Russia is continuing its war of destruction to achieve a situation of dominance that will persuade Ukraine to negotiate or to ask for the annexation of other areas.

My impression is that Zelenskij does not want to negotiate because Ukraine is unwilling to recognize Crimea as part of Russia and autonomous Donbass

Mr.Putin just stated for the record that only TOTAL SURRENDER would be acceptable to him, adding the words "or else" . I guess he is not bullying , just being pragmatic in the face of NATO aggression. Confused

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

King of Loss View Drop Down

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Posted: March 20 2022 at 21:48

tszirmay wrote:

King of Loss wrote:

tszirmay wrote:

“THE GREATEST LESSON IN LIFE IS TO KNOW THAT EVEN FOOLS ARE RIGHT SOMETIMES.” (WINSTON CHURCHILL) I will add :They can be also on the LEFT

I hate to be a contrarian, but Winston Churchill was responsible for one of the worst genocides of the 20th century.

That has no bearing on the quote.......You can start a Churchill genocides thread if you wish.....This is specific to this thread.

I don't know..... but people in this thread are mentioning genocide and Putin as Hitler. I felt like it was inappropriate to use a Churchill quote....

jamesbaldwin View Drop Down

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Posted: March 21 2022 at 03:14

THE WORD "GENOCIDE"

Regarding the wird "genocide", I have already specified, from my first message, that since Ukraine is a country of 44 million people, for there to be a genocide there must be the killing of many millions of people.

There is no absolute limit to the number of people killed for talking about genocide, so I never said that genocide "starts" if a million people are killed.

I also tried to add the example of the "Eskimos" to specify that if they were exterminated it would be a genocide of less than a million.

But empirically, the list of genocides typically includes crimes that have resulted in the killing of people on the order of millions.

King Of Loss mentions the genocide that Churchill's England was responsible for, namely that of the Bengal famine: it also affects a few million people, from 2 to 4 million, as far as I know.

Precisely because no genocide is taking place in Ukraine, Mr Zelinskji was criticized yesterday by many Israeli leaders: he compared what is happening in Ukraine to the genocide of Jews. About 6 million Jews were killed during the Shoah and today, despite the fact that the number oj jews has grown, there are just 14 million Jews worldwide. This gives the idea of what genocide is.

If we count the Ukrainian population, there are still 44 million after a month of war: no one estimates the people killed in Ukraine, up to now, to be more than a million, but not even more than 100,000. This gives the measure of why the word genocide is not appropriate.

Furthermore, a genocide must presuppose the will to annihilate a people, to make them disappear from the face of the earth. It is difficult to think that a genocide will occur if the author of the genocide agrees to humanitarian corridors.

Recently there has been talk of genocide for what happened (and continues to happen) in Syria. In that case, the Assad regime, thanks also to its military allies, including Putin's Russia, would have killed most of the 250,000 - 300,000 people who died during the endless Syrian civil war. Since the Syrians are about 20 million, in that case the death toll is more than 1 cent of the population (plus refugees), and if we also consider the devastation of entire cities, some speak of genocide. In this case, the word is used in a broad sense.

The same is true for the Palestinians: if we consider the number of Palestinians killed by Israel from 1967 to the present, some speak of genocide in a broad sense. But the Israelis reply that the Palestinian population from 1967 to today has grown: of course, because Palestinians have a high reproductive rate, much higher than Israeli Jews, so if they had not been killed in many tens of thousands from 1967 to today, they would be in a much higher number than today. However, even in that case the word genocide can only be used in a broad sense.

As always, if we want to discuss some specific terms, it would be enough to agree honestly on the definition of these terms.

Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 21 2022 at 03:29

Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.

nick_h_nz

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Posted: March 21 2022 at 03:33

jamesbaldwin wrote:

THE WORD "GENOCIDE"

[…]

As always, if we want to discuss some specific terms, it would be enough to agree honestly on the definition of these terms.

Your last sentence is true, but it is your definition that is the outlier. The definition as given by the ICC of genocide is applicable to Russia’s aggression in the UK. I think most people understand genocide in the way it is described by the ICC.

You may not consider what Russia to be doing is genocide, but I would be very surprised if your idea of genocide was anything but a minority view.

So yes, let’s come to an agreement on the definition of the term, but for sure your need to show a lot more movement than anyone else.

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Blacksword View Drop Down

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Posted: March 21 2022 at 04:58

jamesbaldwin wrote:

suitkees wrote:

jamesbaldwin wrote:

<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">8) The original sin of this war is therefore the enlargement of NATO to the East...

According to official news, the three reasons why Russia is waging this war are:

1) Request for a neutral Ukraine

2) Recognition of the Crimea

3) Recognition of the Independence of Donbass.

We don't know though

1) Whether Ukraine is willing to negotiate on these three points

2) If the US is advising Ukraine to resist (they have sent them many weapons) and not to negotiate

3) Is Russia really willing to negotiate just on the basis of these three points

3) Whether Russia is continuing its war of destruction to achieve a situation of dominance that will persuade Ukraine to negotiate or to ask for the annexation of other areas.

My impression is that Zelenskij does not want to negotiate because Ukraine is unwilling to recognize Crimea as part of Russia and autonomous Donbass

Initially he was also demanding the retreat of NATO back to the 97 borders, so basically NATO getting out of Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and maybe Poland (? - I'd have to Google) but in any case he seems to have quietened down on this particular demand - probably realizing it was never going to happen, regardless of his implied nuclear threats.

Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!

SteveG

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Posted: March 21 2022 at 05:21

There's no doubt in my mind that the atrocities in Ukraine are a form of genocide, as the willful killing of civilians en mass can be nothing else. And why is Putin targeting civilians? So, that he will not inherit a Vietnam or Afghanistan type of situation once he has captured and occupied the country. In other words, there will be little resistance, in the form of resistance fighters, once the war is over. Does this sound crazy? Yes, but Putin is crazy as has already been demonstrated.

Edited by SteveG - March 21 2022 at 06:28

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tszirmay

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Posted: March 21 2022 at 07:00

King of Loss wrote:

tszirmay wrote:

King of Loss wrote:

tszirmay wrote:

“THE GREATEST LESSON IN LIFE IS TO KNOW THAT EVEN FOOLS ARE RIGHT SOMETIMES.” (WINSTON CHURCHILL) I will add :They can be also on the LEFT

I hate to be a contrarian, but Winston Churchill was responsible for one of the worst genocides of the 20th century.

That has no bearing on the quote.......You can start a Churchill genocides thread if you wish.....This is specific to this thread.

I don't know..... but people in this thread are mentioning genocide and Putin as Hitler. I felt like it was inappropriate to use a Churchill quote....

Quoting Otto von Bismarck= inappropriate

Quoting Churchill= inappropriate

Can I quote Napoleon, or was he also inappropriate?

"Courage isn't having the strength to go on , it is the going on when you don't have strength"

Please provide an appropriate list of historical figures I can be permitted to use , so as not to offend anyone. Confused

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

Archisorcerus View Drop Down

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Posted: March 21 2022 at 07:05

tszirmay wrote:

Quoting Otto von Bismarck= inappropriate

Quoting anyone is not inappropriate in my book. But you quoted his anti-Russian words without providing the context. Tapfret deleted some posts as they are bigoted, but not yours, which I think also was within the scope of bigotry.

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 21 2022 at 07:07

tszirmay

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Posted: March 21 2022 at 07:08

@jamesbaldwin

FACT CHECK:

For your information (I cannot comprehend how your erudition escaped this) but the word " Eskimo" is considered to be be inappropriate and disrespectful. I am in Canada , I should know. The correct term is "inuit" or "indigenous". First People is the preferred term though

The name "Eskimo" is commonly used in Alaska to refer to Inuit and Yupik people, according to the Alaska Native Language Center at the University of Alaska. "This name is considered derogatory in many other places because it was given by non-Inuit people and was said to mean 'eater of raw meat'.

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

tszirmay

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Posted: March 21 2022 at 07:10

Archisorcerus wrote:

tszirmay wrote:

Quoting Otto von Bismarck= inappropriate

Because I did clarify the context when you took offence. Please verify.

I am far from bigoted, Sir. 4 religions studied , world travel and 7 languages fluency would disprove such a ridiculous notion Shocked

But I do dislike nit-pickers and online louts (mostly on You Tube) .

Edited by tszirmay - March 21 2022 at 07:13

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

Reflections on the Russia’s invasion of Ukraine

“THE GREATEST LESSON IN LIFE IS TO KNOW THAT EVEN FOOLS ARE RIGHT SOMETIMES.” (WINSTON CHURCHILL) I will add :They can be also on the LEFT

“THE GREATEST LESSON IN LIFE IS TO KNOW THAT EVEN FOOLS ARE RIGHT SOMETIMES.” (WINSTON CHURCHILL) I will add :They can be also on the LEFT

“THE GREATEST LESSON IN LIFE IS TO KNOW THAT EVEN FOOLS ARE RIGHT SOMETIMES.” (WINSTON CHURCHILL) I will add :They can be also on the LEFT

“THE GREATEST LESSON IN LIFE IS TO KNOW THAT EVEN FOOLS ARE RIGHT SOMETIMES.” (WINSTON CHURCHILL) I will add :They can be also on the LEFT

“THE GREATEST LESSON IN LIFE IS TO KNOW THAT EVEN FOOLS ARE RIGHT SOMETIMES.” (WINSTON CHURCHILL) I will add :They can be also on the LEFT