Symphonic Metal Heaven

Archisorcerus wrote: Cristi wrote: like I said, Theli is the album where symphonic metal started. As far as I recall, it started with Lepaca Kliffoth. There is some symphonic instrumentation, even classical vocals there. Yet they became a full-fledged symphonic metal band from Theli onwards..

This band plays some decent symphonic metal

^ Do you hear any vocals in Beethoven's symphonies? Symphonic metal is related to the instrumentation. The fact that bands like Dimmu Borgir are labeled as "symphonic black/death metal" seems to me to differentiate them from bands like Therion, as most listeners cannot tolerate "extreme" music. Dimmu Borgir is symphonic black metal, but also symphonic metal as a general term.

Cristi wrote: I agreed with you there. No need to argue.

Oh, I've seen this part a little too late. 

Cristi wrote: Symphonic black metal is a totally different beast. It's more a subgenre of black metal than a subgenre of symphonic metal, if that makes sense.

Then, Nightwish should be power metal. And they shouldn't be mentioned amongst the symphonic metal bands. Really, the same logic.

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 19 2022 at 09:58

Cristi wrote: Archisorcerus wrote: Cristi wrote: Symphonic black metal is a totally different beast. It's more a subgenre of black metal than a subgenre of symphonic metal, if that makes sense. Then, Nightwish should be power metal. And they shouldn't be mentioned amongst the symphonic metal bands. Really, the same logic. They are symphonic power metal and they are symphonic metal. On the last 2-3 albums, the power metal elements are becoming rare, but in the Tarja days, classifying them as power metal would not be wrong IMO.

Well, you're complicating things. 

Dimmu was also not always symphonic, neither was Therion.

If Dimmu Borgir can only be a symphonic black metal band and a black metal band, likewisely Nightwish should only be symphonic power metal band and a power metal band. And neither should be amongst the "symphonic metal bands". Your logic says so. I disagree, for certain. Dimmu and Nightwish are both symphonic metal bands.

Cristi wrote: I'm not saying Dimmu Borgir are not symphonic metal.

Well, quite earlier you said that Dimmu Borgir is not a symphonic metal band, but a symphonic black metal band. You a little soften your tone here, but you still claim a similar thing. Like I said, I see no difference in calling Nightwish a symphonic metal band, and calling Dimmu the same. They both use symphonic instumentation in metal music; whilst one of them does it with "power", the other "in black". 

Archisorcerus wrote: Cristi wrote: I'm not saying Dimmu Borgir are not symphonic metal. Well, quite earlier you said that Dimmu Borgir is not a symphonic metal band, but a symphonic black metal band. You a little soften your tone here, but you still claim a similar thing. Like I said, I see no difference in calling Nightwish a symphonic metal band, and calling Dimmu the same. They both use symphonic instumentation in metal music; whilst one of them does it with "power", the other "in black".

Psychedelic Paul wrote: ^  To complicate things still further, I don't consider Symphonic Black Metal to be bona fide Symphonic Metal. From what I've heard so far of Death Metal/Black Metal, that's something to be avoided by me at all costs from now on. In addition, Dimmu Borgir didn't sound anything like a Symphonic Metal band to me on their first album, although maybe they become more symphonic as they progress.

Yes, they became totally symphonic quite some time after. In the current millennium, to be exact.

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 19 2022 at 10:36

Cristi wrote: Archisorcerus wrote: ^ As I remember, you said that "Dimmu Borgir shouldn't be in the list," or something, as they are not a symphonic metal band. That is not a nuance. But enough is enough, really. I'll not discuss on this thing forever.  What I meant was when people say symphonic metal, they don't think about Dimmu Borgir, but the likes of Nightwish, Therion, Epica and so on. I think DB scarred Paul for life.