| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Archisorcerus 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2022
Location: Izmir
Status: Offline
Points: 2666
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(1)
 Quote  Reply
 Posted: March 19 2022 at 05:48 |
 nick_h_nz wrote:
I don’t think you sound like a jerk. But I often think you don’t give Paul enough credit. I feel the same way about some others, when it comes to Pedro. I don’t always agree with Paul and Pedro (in fact I am sure I disagree with far more of their views than I agree with), but both have strong views that are often counter to many here, and because of the intransigent manner in which they introduced them, they tend to bring derision that is sometimes unfair. |
You first "disagreed with almost anything" the Redcandle said. You said you witnessed all manner of ignorant and rude comments by him. Then, you began to defend him against me. Then, you said that you often agree with the Redcandle, and now you say you disagree with him far more than you agree in his views. Please nick_h_nz. You cannot fool my memory. Grant some substance to your posts.
|
 |
Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 43576
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 05:56 |
nick_h_nz wrote:
Cristi wrote:
nick_h_nz wrote:
I don’t think you sound like a jerk. But I often think you don’t give Paul enough credit. I feel the same way about some others, when it comes to Pedro. I don’t always agree with Paul and Pedro (in fact I am sure I disagree with far more of their views than I agree with), but both have strong views that are often counter to many here, and because of the intransigent manner in which they introduced them, they tend to bring derision that is sometimes unfair.
I don’t think your definition of symphonic is any more right than Paul’s on this forum. If we were talking about prog, then that might be different. (There is a lot more I consider prog than what is on PA, but because of where we are, I would not attempt to portray it as such.) But I can totally get where Paul is coming from, even if I don’t agree with it.
|
I don't have my own definition of symphonic metal, that would be really arrogant of me, wouldn't it?
Symphonic metal has existed as a genre since late 90s and has a specific sound, shaped up by the likes of Therion, Nightwish and the "beauty and the beast" type of gothic metal. European power metal was an influence as well. Here I thought it was common knowledge, how silly of me...   |
I didn’t meant to imply your definition of symphonic metal was yours and yours alone. Not that I would think that was arrogant if you did, anyway. To a certain degree everyone of us has our own definition of any genre, at least when it comes to the borders. While there will always be black and white (that definitely IS, and that definitely is NOT), at the edges of every genre will be the many shades of grey, where people argue over what is and is not. In fact, 90% of discussion on this forum is probably about what is and is not prog.
So yes, it is common knowledge that there is a mostly agreed upon definition of symphonic metal. Although “common” is certainly relative, because within the general population I would say that Paul’s idea of what is symphonic metal is far more common than your definition (by which, again, I don’t simply mean just your own, and yours alone).
|
Funny you think Paul has an idea of what symphonic metal is. Not when he is mixing symphonic metal bands with progressive metal bands (unless of course he's having fun trolling here, I honestly don't know anymore, unfortunately). Can he make the difference here, at this point I doubt he does.
Also I dare say his wiki resource is dubious at best. Better resources were given to him but he ignored them all.  |
|
Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2019
Location: Nottingham, U.K
Status: Online
Points: 40028
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 06:02 |
Cristi wrote:
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
^ Saviour Machine are listed as Symphonic Gothic Neoclassical Christian Metal on Wikipedia, if that's any help at all.  |
Did they actually label the band like that? It's hilarious.
But then again, the symphonic elements are not the defining sound of them. I don't know what's Neoclassical about them, there are no Yngwie Malmsteen shredding influences (when people say "neoclassical metal/power metal" it's usually a lot of guitar shredding). |
Yes, living up to my new soubriquet of "Mr. Copy & Paste", I've copied and pasted this multi-genre description from Saviour Machine's Wiki-page:-
|
|
nick_h_nz
Collaborator
Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team
Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6737
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 06:26 |
Cristi wrote:
nick_h_nz wrote:
Cristi wrote:
nick_h_nz wrote:
I don’t think you sound like a jerk. But I often think you don’t give Paul enough credit. I feel the same way about some others, when it comes to Pedro. I don’t always agree with Paul and Pedro (in fact I am sure I disagree with far more of their views than I agree with), but both have strong views that are often counter to many here, and because of the intransigent manner in which they introduced them, they tend to bring derision that is sometimes unfair.
I don’t think your definition of symphonic is any more right than Paul’s on this forum. If we were talking about prog, then that might be different. (There is a lot more I consider prog than what is on PA, but because of where we are, I would not attempt to portray it as such.) But I can totally get where Paul is coming from, even if I don’t agree with it.
|
I don't have my own definition of symphonic metal, that would be really arrogant of me, wouldn't it?
Symphonic metal has existed as a genre since late 90s and has a specific sound, shaped up by the likes of Therion, Nightwish and the "beauty and the beast" type of gothic metal. European power metal was an influence as well. Here I thought it was common knowledge, how silly of me... |
I didn’t meant to imply your definition of symphonic metal was yours and yours alone. Not that I would think that was arrogant if you did, anyway. To a certain degree everyone of us has our own definition of any genre, at least when it comes to the borders. While there will always be black and white (that definitely IS, and that definitely is NOT), at the edges of every genre will be the many shades of grey, where people argue over what is and is not. In fact, 90% of discussion on this forum is probably about what is and is not prog.
So yes, it is common knowledge that there is a mostly agreed upon definition of symphonic metal. Although “common” is certainly relative, because within the general population I would say that Paul’s idea of what is symphonic metal is far more common than your definition (by which, again, I don’t simply mean just your own, and yours alone).
|
Funny you think Paul has an idea of what symphonic metal is. Not when he is mixing symphonic metal bands with progressive metal bands (unless of course he's having fun trolling here, I honestly don't know anymore, unfortunately). Can he make the difference here, at this point I doubt he does.
Also I dare say his wiki resource is dubious at best. Better resources were given to him but he ignored them all. |
You miss my points. Paul does have an idea of what symphonic music is. It’s not an entirely correct one by anyone who understands the narrower definition understood by you and many others - but that doesn’t make it wrong, apart from by those standards.
There is nothing wrong, per se, with mixing symphonic and progressive metal bands, as there can be some overlap there, especially when one goes beyond the narrower definition understood by you and many others.
Wikipedia can be a dubious resource, but I don’t see why he needs to pay attention to the “better” resources. If someone were not on PA, and posting elsewhere about prog metal bands, no doubt someone would be suggesting the better resource of PA. People not completely into a genre will always have a broader view of what is in the genre, than those who are. And Paul has taken in plenty of criticism here, and substituted bands where suggested, so it’s not as if he is ignoring every piece of advice given.
|
|
|
|
nick_h_nz
Collaborator
Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team
Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6737
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 06:30 |
Archisorcerus wrote:
nick_h_nz wrote:
I don’t think you sound like a jerk. But I often think you don’t give Paul enough credit. I feel the same way about some others, when it comes to Pedro. I don’t always agree with Paul and Pedro (in fact I am sure I disagree with far more of their views than I agree with), but both have strong views that are often counter to many here, and because of the intransigent manner in which they introduced them, they tend to bring derision that is sometimes unfair. |
You first "disagreed with almost anything" the Redcandle said. You said you witnessed all manner of ignorant and rude comments by him. Then, you began to defend him against me. Then, you said that you often agree with the Redcandle, and now you say you disagree with him far more than you agree in his views. Please nick_h_nz. You cannot fool my memory. Grant some substance to your posts. |
I’ve said all those things, and I stand by all of them. They’re not as contradictory as you seem to think. I have witnessed all manner of ignorant and rude comments by Pedro (as I have by Paul), yet I often find myself agreeing with both. But, I disagree with both far more than I agree. There is no inconsistency there, no matter what you think. In fact, I put you in the same boat as Paul and Pedro, Ozgar. I have witnessed ignorant and rude comments from you. I often find myself agreeing with you, but I seem to disagree with you far more than I agree.
I don’t dislike any of the three of you, and I think all three of you are sometimes treated unfairly (for example in your weird historical facts thread, or whatever it was called, where you attracted much derision over the picture of a giant insect).
|
|
|
|
Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2019
Location: Nottingham, U.K
Status: Online
Points: 40028
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 06:33 |
nick_h_nz wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
^ Saviour Machine are listed as Symphonic Gothic Neoclassical Christian Metal on Wikipedia, if that's any help at all. |
Did they actually label the band like that? It's hilarious.
But then again, the symphonic elements are not the defining sound of them. I don't know what's Neoclassical about them, there are no Yngwie Malmsteen shredding influences (when people say "neoclassical metal/power metal" it's usually a lot of guitar shredding). |
Not quite, no. They are listed on Wiki as “symphonic gothic metal”, “neoclassical metal” and “Christian metal”, rather than the conflation of all three that Paul has given. 😄
I don’t really have a problem with Saviour Machine being listed as Symphonic, even if it’s not their defining feature. They are certainly more symphonic than some bands Paul has listed as being part of his symphonic heaven!
That said, pretty much everything Paul lists does make sense if he uses Wikipedia as his main way of finding bands for the genres he chooses. Wikipedia recognises that symphonic metal can mean different things depending on what type of metal the symphonic component is incorporated into, so defines symphonic metal sub-genres such as symphonic gothic (eg Saviour Machine), symphonic black, symphonic death, and symphonic power. It also over-emphasises links between symphonic metal, melodic death metal, neoclassical metal, power metal and prog metal. Looked at this way, Paul’s symphonic heaven makes way more sense. Nonsense, still, but with the sense behind the nonsense becomes more obvious.
|
Regarding Black Metal & Death Metal, I've avoided those two extreme, Hellish Metal genres like the proverbial plague (Aka "The Black Death") so hopefully, you won't find any devilish Black Metal or Death Metal bands tarnishing my Symphonic Metal Heaven listings. 
Edited by Psychedelic Paul - March 19 2022 at 06:36
|
|
nick_h_nz
Collaborator
Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team
Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6737
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 06:40 |
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
nick_h_nz wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
^ Saviour Machine are listed as Symphonic Gothic Neoclassical Christian Metal on Wikipedia, if that's any help at all. |
Did they actually label the band like that? It's hilarious.
But then again, the symphonic elements are not the defining sound of them. I don't know what's Neoclassical about them, there are no Yngwie Malmsteen shredding influences (when people say "neoclassical metal/power metal" it's usually a lot of guitar shredding). |
Not quite, no. They are listed on Wiki as “symphonic gothic metal”, “neoclassical metal” and “Christian metal”, rather than the conflation of all three that Paul has given. 😄
I don’t really have a problem with Saviour Machine being listed as Symphonic, even if it’s not their defining feature. They are certainly more symphonic than some bands Paul has listed as being part of his symphonic heaven!
That said, pretty much everything Paul lists does make sense if he uses Wikipedia as his main way of finding bands for the genres he chooses. Wikipedia recognises that symphonic metal can mean different things depending on what type of metal the symphonic component is incorporated into, so defines symphonic metal sub-genres such as symphonic gothic (eg Saviour Machine), symphonic black, symphonic death, and symphonic power. It also over-emphasises links between symphonic metal, melodic death metal, neoclassical metal, power metal and prog metal. Looked at this way, Paul’s symphonic heaven makes way more sense. Nonsense, still, but with the sense behind the nonsense becomes more obvious.
|
Regarding Black Metal & Death Metal, I've avoided those two extreme, Hellish Metal genres like the proverbial plague (Aka "The Black Death") so hopefully, you won't find any devilish Black Metal or Death Metal bands tarnishing my Symphonic Metal Heaven listings. |
Well, you did have Dimmu Borgir - presumably because they are symphonic black metal according to Wiki, so come up in any Wiki search for symphonic metal.
But yes, I can understand why you would avoid those. Once upon a time I would have too. I abhorred the Cookie Monster vocals, and no matter how good some of the music might have been, I simply couldn’t get past the growls, screeches and howls that sounded like the devil regurgitating a dog’s diarrhoea.
|
|
|
|
Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2019
Location: Nottingham, U.K
Status: Online
Points: 40028
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 07:00 |
^ I've since deleted Dimmu Borgir from my listings after listening to them and realising what a BIG mistake it was to have included them in Symphonic Metal in the first place. 
I've heard that Dimmu Borgir get better as they go along. After all, they couldn't get any worse.  |
|
Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2022
Location: Izmir
Status: Offline
Points: 2666
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 07:32 |
nick_h_nz wrote:
Archisorcerus wrote:
nick_h_nz wrote:
I don’t think you sound like a jerk. But I often think you don’t give Paul enough credit. I feel the same way about some others, when it comes to Pedro. I don’t always agree with Paul and Pedro (in fact I am sure I disagree with far more of their views than I agree with), but both have strong views that are often counter to many here, and because of the intransigent manner in which they introduced them, they tend to bring derision that is sometimes unfair. |
You first "disagreed with almost anything" the Redcandle said. You said you witnessed all manner of ignorant and rude comments by him. Then, you began to defend him against me. Then, you said that you often agree with the Redcandle, and now you say you disagree with him far more than you agree in his views. Please nick_h_nz. You cannot fool my memory. Grant some substance to your posts. |
I’ve said all those things, and I stand by all of them. They’re not as contradictory as you seem to think. I have witnessed all manner of ignorant and rude comments by Pedro (as I have by Paul), yet I often find myself agreeing with both. But, I disagree with both far more than I agree. There is no inconsistency there, no matter what you think. In fact, I put you in the same boat as Paul and Pedro, Ozgar. I have witnessed ignorant and rude comments from you. I often find myself agreeing with you, but I seem to disagree with you far more than I agree.
I don’t dislike any of the three of you, and I think all three of you are sometimes treated unfairly (for example in your weird historical facts thread, or whatever it was called, where you attracted much derision over the picture of a giant insect).
|
Gosh, what a load of nonsense.
nick_h_nz wrote:
I put you in the same boat as Paul and Pedro, Ozgar. I have witnessed ignorant and rude comments from you. |
Give examples. You cannot "stand by" this one, unless you can give examples. This is not a "please". It is imperative that you give some of my ignorant posts as examples, for you to be trustable here.
nick_h_nz wrote:
They’re not as contradictory as you seem to think. |
nick_h_nz wrote:
There is no inconsistency there, no matter what you think. |
Stop using these flimsy and evasive manipulation techniques. I know what I think, I know what I deduce.
Edited by Archisorcerus - March 19 2022 at 07:34
|
|
nick_h_nz
Collaborator
Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team
Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6737
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 07:36 |
^I am not trying to be manipulative. I have said what I think. If you take something else from it than what I mean, that is up to you. As you say, that is what you deduce. It doesn't mean what you deduce is accurate. There is no inconsistency in any of the things that you've said that I've said. If you think that is nonsense, that is, of course, your prerogative.
|
|
|
|
Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2022
Location: Izmir
Status: Offline
Points: 2666
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 07:38 |
|
^ Give examples to my ignorant posts.
|
|
Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 43576
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 08:55 |
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
nick_h_nz wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
^ Saviour Machine are listed as Symphonic Gothic Neoclassical Christian Metal on Wikipedia, if that's any help at all. |
Did they actually label the band like that? It's hilarious.
But then again, the symphonic elements are not the defining sound of them. I don't know what's Neoclassical about them, there are no Yngwie Malmsteen shredding influences (when people say "neoclassical metal/power metal" it's usually a lot of guitar shredding). |
Not quite, no. They are listed on Wiki as “symphonic gothic metal”, “neoclassical metal” and “Christian metal”, rather than the conflation of all three that Paul has given. 😄
I don’t really have a problem with Saviour Machine being listed as Symphonic, even if it’s not their defining feature. They are certainly more symphonic than some bands Paul has listed as being part of his symphonic heaven!
That said, pretty much everything Paul lists does make sense if he uses Wikipedia as his main way of finding bands for the genres he chooses. Wikipedia recognises that symphonic metal can mean different things depending on what type of metal the symphonic component is incorporated into, so defines symphonic metal sub-genres such as symphonic gothic (eg Saviour Machine), symphonic black, symphonic death, and symphonic power. It also over-emphasises links between symphonic metal, melodic death metal, neoclassical metal, power metal and prog metal. Looked at this way, Paul’s symphonic heaven makes way more sense. Nonsense, still, but with the sense behind the nonsense becomes more obvious.
|
Regarding Black Metal & Death Metal, I've avoided those two extreme, Hellish Metal genres like the proverbial plague (Aka "The Black Death") so hopefully, you won't find any devilish Black Metal or Death Metal bands tarnishing my Symphonic Metal Heaven listings. |
Early Therion played death metal. I say you should avoid any Therion album, up until Theli. You might like a few things on Theli, although I do not know whether you'd enjoy it in its entirety. I think, for you, Vovin will be the first Therion album you'd enjoy listening to.
|
|
Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 43576
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 09:00 |
nick_h_nz wrote:
You miss my points. Paul does have an idea of what symphonic music is. It’s not an entirely correct one by anyone who understands the narrower definition understood by you and many others - but that doesn’t make it wrong, apart from by those standards.
There is nothing wrong, per se, with mixing symphonic and progressive metal bands, as there can be some overlap there, especially when one goes beyond the narrower definition understood by you and many others.
Wikipedia can be a dubious resource, but I don’t see why he needs to pay attention to the “better” resources. If someone were not on PA, and posting elsewhere about prog metal bands, no doubt someone would be suggesting the better resource of PA. People not completely into a genre will always have a broader view of what is in the genre, than those who are. And Paul has taken in plenty of criticism here, and substituted bands where suggested, so it’s not as if he is ignoring every piece of advice given.
|
Overlap? I can't think of many which means it's a rare thing. I would never mix these two genres. By this point, Paul is giving me OCD with some of his posts in these two symphonic metal threads.
Edited by Cristi - October 27 2022 at 03:11
|
|
Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2019
Location: Nottingham, U.K
Status: Online
Points: 40028
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 09:05 |
^ That doesn't bode well for me liking Therion's early albums then if they're all Death Metal, although I need to listen to their entire discography if I'm going to keep them in the list. I can foresee some 2-star ratings coming up for Therion's pre-Vovin albums - and that's if I'm being generous.
Edited by Psychedelic Paul - March 19 2022 at 09:05
|
|
Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 43576
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 09:21 |
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
^ That doesn't bode well for me liking Therion's early albums then if they're all Death Metal, although I need to listen to their entire discography if I'm going to keep them in the list. I can foresee some 2-star ratings coming up for Therion's pre-Vovin albums - and that's if I'm being generous.
|
like I said, Theli is the album where symphonic metal started. If Theli gats 2 stars from you, I'll pull out my middle finger emoticon for you.
|
|
Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2022
Location: Izmir
Status: Offline
Points: 2666
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 09:22 |
Cristi wrote:
Early Therion played death metal. I say you should avoid any Therion album, up until Theli. You might like a few things on Theli, although I do not know whether you'd enjoy it in its entirety. I think, for you, Vovin will be the first Therion album you'd enjoy listening to. |
I agree. I would also recommend Vovin to Paul first. But, he might enjoy Le fleurs du mal too. Covers of some classic French songs; there's a wonderful female singer there.
Edited by Archisorcerus - March 19 2022 at 09:25
|
|
Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 43576
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 09:24 |
Archisorcerus wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Early Therion played death metal. I say you should avoid any Therion album, up until Theli. You might like a few things on Theli, although I do not know whether you'd enjoy it in its entirety. I think, for you, Vovin will be the first Therion album you'd enjoy listening to. |
I agree. I would also recommend Vovin to Paul first. But, he might enjoy Le fleurs du mal too. Covers of some classic French songs, sung by wonderful female vocals. |
He might enjoy any Therion album starting with Vovin. I hope he will enjoy Theli, at least a few songs on it. That's a groundbreaking album.
|
|
Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2019
Location: Nottingham, U.K
Status: Online
Points: 40028
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 09:26 |
Cristi wrote:
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
^ That doesn't bode well for me liking Therion's early albums then if they're all Death Metal, although I need to listen to their entire discography if I'm going to keep them in the list. I can foresee some 2-star ratings coming up for Therion's pre-Vovin albums - and that's if I'm being generous.
|
like I said, Theli is the album where symphonic metal started. If Theli gats 2 stars from you, I'll pull out my middle finger emoticon for you. |
I haven't seen the middle finger emoticon before, so I look forward to it. 
|
|
Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2022
Location: Izmir
Status: Offline
Points: 2666
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 09:29 |
Cristi wrote:
like I said, Theli is the album where symphonic metal started. |
As far as I recall, it started with Lepaca Kliffoth. There is some symphonic instrumentation, even classical vocals there. Yet they became a full-fledged symphonic metal band from Theli onwards..
Edited by Archisorcerus - March 19 2022 at 09:30
|
|
Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Online
Points: 43576
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: March 19 2022 at 09:31 |
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
^ That doesn't bode well for me liking Therion's early albums then if they're all Death Metal, although I need to listen to their entire discography if I'm going to keep them in the list. I can foresee some 2-star ratings coming up for Therion's pre-Vovin albums - and that's if I'm being generous.
|
like I said, Theli is the album where symphonic metal started. If Theli gats 2 stars from you, I'll pull out my middle finger emoticon for you. |
I haven't seen the middle finger emoticon before, so I look forward to it. |
I hope you will enjoy the album a little bit, it's a groundbreaking album, you have seen us keep mentioning him, I'm surprised you have not listened to it already. Just out of curiosity, you know...
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
