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Philchem8 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2022 at 14:46
David, as you suggested to continue our conversation on the '20 of your greatest UK prog rock classics' thread under this topic. I just wanted to share a few thoughts about your list of 100 top prog albums based on RYM and PA ratings. 

Firstly, with respect to the list itself, I do think it provides a credible ranking of the best prog albums, with the caveat that, as I mentioned, it's limited by the fact that you only include one album per band. I just had a quick look at RYM's top 100 prog-rock albums, and there are quite a few bands with several albums in the top 100 (same on PA). For instance, King Crimson has 6, Pink Floyd, Genesis and Rush have 5 each, Yes, VDGG and Gentle Giant have 4 each, etc. So I would say that by limiting your list to one album per band, one gets a better appreciation of the number of bands with highly-rated albums, but many highly appreciated albums are missing. Aside from that, I think the list is quite close to what I perceive are considered the best prog-albums (though I admit that I am not familiar with a number of them) and is roughly consistent with other lists that I find credible, such as Prog Magazine's "The 100 greatest prog albums of all time".          

You raised these questions on the '20 of your greatest UK prog rock classics' thread:

"What I mean is that those albums are the highest rated but what does that exactly tell 
about the raters' view of them? 
Those albums are most liked?
They are most appreciated?
They are considered to be the best ones?
They have got the highest status?
They are maybe just those albums which were highest rated in the beginning, 
and the following raters just followed this high rating?
Or what can be told about them in general?"

I think these are all good questions and I have often wondered myself what is in peoples' heads when they rate albums and movies. I would think that, by and large, most people rate albums primarily based on whether they like them, or on how good they think the albums are, or a combination of both, though these other factors you mention probably come into play as well for some people. I can only speak for myself. If I'm asked which albums are my favorite (for example, on your 20 UK classics topic), then my choice is really based on my personal preferences. However, when I rate an album, I try to be "relatively" objective and rate it according to what I perceive to be the quality of the music, taking into account the time and context in which it was made. This is can be quite difficult sometimes because there are certain styles that I don't particularly enjoy or appreciate, but I may recognize the creativity or technical ability of the musicians. Sometimes, I read several reviews of an album to understand what others may like or not like in it, to help me come to a judgment. That said, I admit that I do let my personal preferences creep in to some extent, particularly if I feel that an album I like is under-rated, I will give the album maybe a higher rating than I objectively think it deserves (I use therm "objectively" here in a relative sense, because can one be truly objective about the arts?). Conversely, if after several listens of a highly-rated album, I really can't see what the hell is good about it, I will give that album a lower rating than its average rating, but maybe not too low as I still give the benefit of the doubt to other raters.                 

What about yourself, how do you rate albums?   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 05:50
Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

...
Firstly, with respect to the list itself, I do think it provides a credible ranking of the best prog albums, with the caveat that, as I mentioned, it's limited by the fact that you only include one album per band. 
...

Hi,

RATING ... not ranking. 

The idea of ranking all that is the most insane ever, and is based on some numbers that most companies would not share anyway, or they will be charged even more taxes. 

The inclusion of only ONE artist instead of multiple albums, is something I have been requesting for a long time, which gives other artists a chance, when otherwise they won't be visible. How does it help Jethro Tull if 8 albums are listed, and 7 other bands are left out ... that will only happen if you don't give a sh*t about this music and its quality and its ability to last longer than a lifetime!

And yes, if we can list 100 bands, we done the theme and idea RIGHT ... instead of a popular vote ... heck why bother calling it "progressive" when it is all about "popular" music and vote? Sometimes I wish we would wake up! In the end, we don't care about our music, because if we did, a lot more bands would get the appreciation here instead of a request for more albums from one band. Heck ... 5 from YES, 5 from KC, 7 from JT, 4 from ELP ... and that is 21 less artists mentioned and appreciated ... what a great service it would have been for the music itself ... the hippocrisy is stunning!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 07:40
Than you very much for your post here, Phil, I've found it very interesting and enjoyable to read.

"So I would say that by limiting your list to one album per band, one gets a better appreciation of the number of bands with highly-rated albums, but many highly appreciated albums are missing."

totally agree

"What about yourself, how do you rate albums? "

I do it pretty much the same way as you do it, but not much with "I try to be "relatively" objective and rate it according to what I perceive to be the quality of the music, taking into account the time and context in which it was made." - even it happens some times, and maybe I've begun to do it more.

I'm certainly influenced by the average rating, but round up to a higher rating if I'm fond of the album. I can change my rating after I've listened to an album many more times, but most typically I rate albums which I know very well and have done it through long period of time.

Most of the albums I've rated have been rather obscure ones with relatively few ratings, as I'd like my rating to make a difference and not just to drown in a very big number of other ratings. So I don't think that I'm a typical rater.


Edited by David_D - February 26 2022 at 15:00
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 13:02

I don't want you to interact with me anymore, moshkito. Stern Smile
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 15:22
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


<span style="white-space:pre">     </span>I don't want you to interact with me anymore, moshkito. Stern Smile


Just treat him like the method acting buffoon like the rest of us and take his input as comedy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 15:40
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Just treat him like the method acting buffoon like the rest of us and take his input as comedy.

Thanks for this point of view, Ian, I'll think about it. Smile




Edited by David_D - February 26 2022 at 15:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mellotron Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2022 at 19:42
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

so what is the thread question? What are we supposed to do? Confused

Well, it's meant as a "recommendation", or for the curious ones.

I appreciate the effort to do this list it, I would have eaten this up when I first got into Prog, not literally. 
Covers most of the bases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 06:43
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


<span style="white-space:pre">     </span>I don't want you to interact with me anymore, moshkito. Stern Smile


Just treat him like the method acting buffoon like the rest of us and take his input as comedy.

Hi,

As if all comedy was just stupid, stony bullcrap as a lot of American TV! One day, you both might know the difference! And maybe appreciate it some more!


Edited by moshkito - February 27 2022 at 06:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 09:52

moshkito, you know nothing about my points of view concerning the Western culture. 
You just presume a lot of negative things, and misinterpret me much of the time 
- even I've already told you that we have quite a lot in common in our points of view. 

In fact, it's a sad story.

Edit:
But okay moshkito, I may misinterpret you, as well, I can't say that for sure. 
I must admit, it's not easy for me to understand what you write, and these long post of yours 
are also due to some other reasons difficult for me to deal with. 


Edited by David_D - February 27 2022 at 13:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2022 at 13:45
Originally posted by Mellotron Storm Mellotron Storm wrote:

I appreciate the effort to do this list it, I would have eaten this up when I first got into Prog, not literally. 
Covers most of the bases.

Thanks, Mellotron, and I can tell that my reason to make this list has first and foremost been a way to 
get acquainted with more or less new-to-me Prog Rock albums.


Edited by David_D - February 27 2022 at 13:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 00:30
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

...
You just presume a lot of negative things, and misinterpret me much of the time 
- even I've already told you that we have quite a lot in common in our points of view. 
...
But okay moshkito, I may misinterpret you, as well, I can't say that for sure. 
I must admit, it's not easy for me to understand what you write, and these long post of yours 
are also due to some other reasons difficult for me to deal with. 

Hi,

Length should not have anything to do with the quality of what is being said. Otherwise, there would be hundreds of books burned because they are too long, hundreds of records ditched by wayside because they are too long, and a lot of Goya and other paintings that are way too big!

I don't make them long because I want to be counter everyone's one word says nothing thing. I write it, and EXPLAIN what I stated, but since the majority of comments do not always show any explanation, then my posts look too big and confusing. I have never gone out of my way to confuse anyone and even in my directing days, it was about the simplicity of it all, and had nothing to do with the "intellectual" this and that ... so it's a bit weird, when someone tells me that they are too long, as if there was much more to the subject than we think, or care to know.

My main concern is that in a lot of ways, the "simplicity" of many answers tries to take a huge subject, and turn it into a meaningless mishmash ... and many times we are doing just that ... and to me, the music that we call "progressive" (regardless of its many variations) is very valuable and important, and sometimes the semantics are not enough to explain it all ... and we're doing nothing but hitting our heads on a brick wall instead of trying to make sense of it all ... and even more important for me is the socialist view here of the folks defending the top ten (and very commercial) concept, something that "progressive" music was not into and tried hard to break ... how ironic and sad, that after all these years wanting some freedom, all they can now find is to be confined to a rest home ... left behind ... to wither and die!

Sad, and poetic for sure, but sad!


Edited by moshkito - February 28 2022 at 00:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 05:00
What's the quote "I wrote a long letter because I didn't have the time to write a short one"? Concise and to the point communication provides more clarity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 08:52

Due to several reasons, I can't discuss those things with you, moshkito, but you certainly
seem to misinterpret my whole approach to "favourite" lists.

I've written about it in the "Prog fans in our 60's" thread (more than one post) if it may interest you
  - and if you don't find my reasons good enough, then we just disagree about it because I can't really see 
anything wrong about them. Smile

If you want to do something for socialism, I'm not the right one to hit on the head.


Edited by David_D - March 01 2022 at 02:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 09:27
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

What's the quote "I wrote a long letter because I didn't have the time to write a short one"? Concise and to the point communication provides more clarity.

like write in Paul's "Symphonic Prog Collection" poll?:  

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Aren't Genesis Proto-Neo?

Big smile


Edited by David_D - February 28 2022 at 09:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 10:43

By the way, Nogbad, will you classify Genesis' and Yes' music in the 80's as Neo-Prog/Symphonic,
or do you consider it as something else?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 11:14
I consider it as little as possible. My last Yes album is GFTO and last Genesis is Lamb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 12:30
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I consider it as little as possible. My last Yes album is GFTO and last Genesis is Lamb.

I can't even eat the whole of the Lamb - if to tell it in Paul's way. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 14:32
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I consider it as little as possible.

While I've got the impression that you might be one of the very most knowledgeable here about classifying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philchem8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 14:34
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I consider it as little as possible. My last Yes album is GFTO and last Genesis is Lamb.


I can't even eat the whole of the Lamb - if to tell it in Paul's way. 


The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is enough to make one a vegetarian
Seriously though, for my part, I would consider Genesis' And Then There 3, Duke and Abacab as progressive pop-rock, if such a label can be used (and I do like these 3 albums), not prog as such or neo-prog. Anything after these albums (starting with the 1983 self-titled album) is pure pop-rock in my view. There are still a few instances of innovation but by and large, it's very mainstream, commercial music. As for Yes, I don't know enough about their music in the 80s to opine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2022 at 18:52
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

My main concern is that in a lot of ways, the "simplicity" of many answers tries to take a huge subject, and turn it into a meaningless mishmash ... and many times we are doing just that ... and to me, the music that we call "progressive" (regardless of its many variations) is very valuable and important, ...

Yes, music is emotion and sometimes it might seem that our musical choices, and by extension our emotions are being trivialized. 

However it must also be understood that there is nothing more subjective than music and one persons tragedy might well be another persons comedy.

Sure, don't treat the music we love as trivial, but also don't take things too seriously either. That way madness lies IMHO.
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