Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
Forum Description: Make or seek recommendations and discuss specific prog albums
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127673
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 20:51
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA
Posted By: David_D
Subject: Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 01:30
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Top 100 all-time of Progressive Rock as a meta-genre. Made in March-April 2019 based on all the ratings on RateYourMusic and ProgArchives but only 1 (studio) album from each band is included. The averages of all the ratings are weighted according to the number of raters on RYM and PA respectively, and then recalculated to 15-scale. Pink Floyd (UK) :
The Dark Side Of the Moon
(1973) 12,7 (44.900 r.) King Crimson (UK) : In The Court Of The Crimson King (1969) 13,0 (32.100 r.) Yes (UK) :
Close To The Edge (1972)
12,7
(18.900 r.) Godspeed You! Black Emperor (CAN)
: Lift Yr. Skinny… (2000) 12,5 (23.500 r.) Genesis (UK) : Selling England By The Pound (1973)
12,6
(14.700 r.) Jethro Tull (UK) : Thick As A Brick (1972) 12,6 (11.900 r.) Can (D) : Tago Mago (1971) 12,3 (16.600 r.) Frank Zappa (US) :
Hot Rats (1969) 12,3 (14.900 r.) Tool (US) :
Lateralus (2001)
11,9 (16.500
r.) Rush (CAN) :
Moving Pictures (1981)
12,0
(13.200 r.) Opeth (S) : Blackwater Park (2001)
11,9
(13.300 r.) Porcupine Tree (UK) :
In Absentia (2002)
11,7
(11.200 r.) The Mars Volta (US) :
De-Loused In The Comatorium
(2003) 11,5 (13.500 r.) Camel (UK) :
Mirage (1974) 12,3 (8.700 r.) Van Der Graaf
Generator (UK) : Pawn Hearts
(1971) 12,2 (6.800 r.) Robert Wyatt (UK) :
Rock Bottom (1974) 12,0 (8.000 r.) Comus (UK) : First Utterance (1971)
12,0
(7.500 r.) Dream Theater (US) :
Images And Words (1992)
11,5
(11.600 r.) Mastodon (US) :
Crack the Skye (2009) 11,6 (9.400 r.) Caravan (UK) :
In The Land Of Grey And Pink
(1971) 12,0 (6.400 r.) Soft Machine (UK) :
Third (1970) 11,9 (6.800 r.) Gentle Giant (UK) : Octopus (1972) 11,9 (6.200 r.) Faust (D) :
Faust IV (1974) 11,7 (7.100 r.) NEU! (D) : NEU! (1972) 11,5 (9.000 r.) Captain Beefheart (US) : Trout Mask Replica (1969) 11,2 (12.000 r.) Marillion (UK) : Misplaced Childhood (1985) 11,8 (6.000 r.) Mahavishnu
Orchestra (US) : Birds of Fire (1973)
11,9
(4.900 r.) The Mothers (US) :
The Grand Wazoo (1972) 11,9 (4.800 r.) Amon Düül II (D) :
Yeti (1970) 11,7 (6.300 r.) Queensryche (US)
: Operation : Mindcrime (1988)
11,7 (6.200 r.) Premiata Forneria
Marconi (I) : Per Un Amico
(1972) 12,3 (3.600 r.) Atheist (US) :
Unquestionable Presence (1991) 11,7 (5.700) Mr. Bungle (US) : California
(1999) 11,6 (6.800) Emerson, Lake &
Palmer (UK) : Emerson, Lake & Palmer (1970)
11,6
(6.300 r.) Mike Oldfield (UK) :
Ommadown (1975) 12,0 (4.500 r.) Änglagård
(S) : Hybris (1992)
12,2
(3.400 r.) Tangerine Dream (D) : Phaedra
(1974) 11,5 (6.300 r.) Steven Wilson (UK) :
The Raven that Refused… (2013) 11,5 (6.200 r.) Riverside (PL) :
Second Life Syndrome (2005) 11,9 (4.200 r.) Harmonium (CAN) :
Si On Avait Besoin… (1975) 12,1 (3.400 r.) Renaissance (UK) :
Scheherazade And Other Stories
(1975) 12,1 (3.000 r.) Wishbone Ash (UK) :
Argus (1972) 11,8 (4.100 r.) Pain of Salvation (S) :
Remedy Lane (2002) 11,8 (3.800 r.) Hawkwind (UK) :
Space Ritual (1973) 12,0 (3.200 r.) Steve Hackett (UK) :
Voyage Of The Acolyte (1975) 12,0 (3.100 r.) The Moody Blues (UK) : Days Of Future Passed (1967) 11,6 (5.600 r.) Magma (F) : Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh (1973)
11,6 (5.100 r.) Santana (US) :
Caravanserai (1972) 11,8 (3.100 r.) Edge of Sanity (S) : Crimson
(1996) 11,7 (4.200 r.) Museo Rosenbach (I) :
Zarathustra (1973) 12,1 (2.100 r.) Gong (F) :
You (1974) 11,7 (3.500 r.) Cynic (US) :
Focus (1993) 11,3 (5.700 r.) Kansas (US) :
Leftoverture (1976) 11,6 (3.700 r.) Jean-Michel Jarre (F) : Oxygene (1976) 11,4 (4.600 r.) Peter Hammill (UK) :
The Silent Corner And… (1974) 12,0 (2.200 r.) Uriah Heep (UK) :
Look at Yourself (1971) 11,7 (3.000 r.) Voivod (CAN) :
Nothingface ( 1989) 11,7 (2.800 r.) Focus (NL) : Hamburger Concerto (1974) 12,0 (2.100 r.) Khan (UK) :
Space Shanty (1972) 12,0 (2.000 r.) Devin Townsend (CAN) :
Terria (2001) 11,6 (3.400 r.) Maudlin of the
Well (US) : Bath (2001) 11,5 (3.900 r.) Bacamarte (Bra) :
Depois Do Fim (1983) 12,1 (1.600 r.) Kayo Dot (US) :
Choirs Of the Eye (2003) 11,4 (3.700 r.) Flower Travellin’ Band (J) : Satori (1971) 11,4 (3.600 r.) IQ (UK) :
The Road of Bones (2014) 12,0 (1.800 r.) Le Orme (I) : Felona
E Sorona (1973) 11,9 (2.200 r.) Popol Vuh (D) :
In den Gärten Pharaos (1971) 11,4 (3.300 r.) Traffic (UK) :
John Barleycorn Must Die (1970)
11,4
(3.200 r.) The Alan Parsons
Project (US) : Tales Of Mystery… (1976) 11,4 (3.100 r.) Big Big Train (UK) :
English Electric (Part One) (2012) 12,1 (1.400 r.) Al Di Meola (US) :
Elegant Gypsy (1977) 11,8 (2.400 r.) Ayreon (NL) : The Human Equation (2004)
11,3
(3.900 r.) Phideaux (US) :
Doomsday Afternoon (2007) 12,0 (1.500 r.) Between the Buried
and Me (US) : Colors
(2007) 10,9 (5.300 r.) Arcturus (N) :
The Sham Mirros (2002) 11,3 (3.600 r.) Transatlantic (US) :
Bridge Across Forever (2001)
11,8
(2.000 r.) Roy Harper (UK) :
Stormcock (1971) 11,7 (2.700 r.) Eloy (D) :
Ocean (1977) 11,7 (2.500 r.) Area (I) :
Arbeit Macht Frei (1973) 11,7 (2.500 r.) Billy Cobham (US) :
Spectrum (1973) 11,7 (2.400 r.) T2 (UK) :
It’ll All Work out in Boomland (1970)
11,7
(2.200 r.) Hatfield and the
North (UK) : Hatfield and the North (1974)
11,7
(2.100 r.) Haken (UK) :
The Mountain (2013) 11,5 (2.800 r.) Captain Beyond (US) : Captain Beyond (1972)
11,5
(2.700 r.) Ash Ra Tempel (D) :
Ash Ra Tempel (1971) 11,3 (3.200 r.) Nektar (UK) :
A Tab In The Ocean (1972) 11,6 (2.100 r.) Colosseum (UK) :
Valentyne Suite (1969) 11,6 (2.100 r.) Return to
Forever (US) : Romantic Warrior (1976)
11,5
(2.300 r.) Symphony X (US) : The Divine Wings Of Tragedy (1997)
11,4
(2.800 r.) Manuel
Göttsching (D) : E2-E4
(1984) 11,4 (2.700 r.) Negura Bunget (Rom) : Om
(2006) 11,3 (3.100 r.) Aphrodite’s Child (Gre) :
666 (1972)
11,2 (3.700 r.) Bubu (ARG) :
Anabelas (1978) 11,9 (1.400 r.) Triana (ESP) :
El Patio (1975) 11,8 (1.600 r.) Anathema (UK) :
A Natural Disaster (2003) 11,2 (3.400 r.) Il Balletto di
Bronzo (I) : Ys
(1972) 11,7 (1.800 r.) Spock’s Beard (US) :
V (2000) 11,7 (1.800 r.) Invisible (ARG) :
El Jardin de los Presentes (1976) 11,9 (1.300 r.) Klaus Schulze (D) :
Mirage (1977) 11,7 (1.700 r.) Rick Wakeman (UK) : The Six Wives Of Henry VIII (1973) 11,4 (2.200 r.) To see an additional part to this list, top 100-160 look here: https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127706" rel="nofollow - Top 100-160 all-time as rated on RYM and PA Edit: The definition of Progressive Rock as a meta-genre, I've used as a basis for this list, is following: 1. be a synthesis/fusion of Rock (significantly present) and at least one of other "main genres": Classical, Jazz, Folk, electronic avant-garde or other avant-garde, AND 2. be rather complex or at least to some extent experimental in another way than #1. ”electronic avant-garde” is here primarily Musique Concrete and Minimalism while ”other avant-garde” include Free and Avant-Jazz and Contemporary Classical. For the full description and considerations regarding this definition look here https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127835" rel="nofollow - How to define and classify Progressive Rock? ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Replies:
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 01:37
so what is the thread question? What are we supposed to do? 
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 01:45
Well, it's meant as a "recommendation", or for the curious ones.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Cristi wrote:Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 01:57
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Apart from it being a list of albums with some numbers (ratings?) which quite frankly I can't make head or tail of, I can't see what this thread is all about. ------------- "We're going to need a bigger swear jar." Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 02:34
Good work with compiling this list.  These are the albums from your list that I'd include in my own personal Top 200:-Pink Floyd (UK) : The Dark Side Of the Moon (1973) 12,7 (44.900 r.) King Crimson (UK) : In The Court Of The Crimson King (1969) 13,0 (32.100 r.) Yes (UK) : Close To The Edge (1972) 12,7 (18.900 r.) Genesis (UK) : Selling England By The Pound (1973) 12,6 (14.700 r.) Camel (UK) : Mirage (1974) 12,3 (8.700 r.) Dream Theater (US) : Images And Words (1992) 11,5 (11.600 r.) Caravan (UK) : In The Land Of Grey And Pink (1971) 12,0 (6.400 r.) Emerson, Lake & Palmer (UK) : Emerson, Lake & Palmer (1970) 11,6 (6.300 r.) Mike Oldfield (UK) : Ommadown (1975) 12,0 (4.500 r.) Renaissance (UK) : Scheherazade And Other Stories (1975) 12,1 (3.000 r.) Steve Hackett (UK) : Voyage Of The Acolyte (1975) 12,0 (3.100 r.) Wishbone Ash (UK) : Argus (1972) 11,8 (4.100 r.) The Moody Blues (UK) : Days Of Future Passed (1967) 11,6 (5.600 r.) Khan (UK) : Space Shanty (1972) 12,0 (2.000 r.) Flower Travellin’ Band (J) : Satori (1971) 11,4 (3.600 r.) Focus (NL) : Hamburger Concerto (1974) 12,0 (2.100 r.) IQ (UK) : The Road of Bones (2014) 12,0 (1.800 r.) The Alan Parsons Project (US) : Tales Of Mystery… (1976) 11,4 (3.100 r.) Ayreon (NL) : The Human Equation (2004) 11,3 (3.900 r.) Eloy (D) : Ocean (1977) 11,7 (2.500 r.) Nektar (UK) : A Tab In The Ocean (1972) 11,6 (2.100 r.) Rick Wakeman (UK) : The Six Wives Of Henry VIII (1973) 11,4 (2.200 r.) |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 02:50
About the numbers, the first one is the average of all the ratings, recalculated from 5-scale to 15-scale, and the second number is the total of all the ratings. My intention of this thread is to present relatively objective (more proper, intersubjective) top 100 as a recommendation of what can be said to be generally considered among the very best albums - yes, meant as a recommendation of or orientation about.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 03:06
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Psychedelic Paul wrote: "Good work with compiling this list." Thank you. As you can imagine, it has been quite a bit of work, and quite a lot of thinking and making choices. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 04:12
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Fine by me to have a thread like this and nice work. We have discussed pros and cons of various Top 100s for a long time, here's another one. Why not? Question: What exactly did you do? Did you average RYM and PA 50/50, or did you weight them somehow (e.g., number of raters)? What exactly does "recalculation to 15-scale" mean? As far as I can see, RYM goes from 0 to 5, PA from 1 to 5, do you mean you transformed both of them linearly to 1-15 or 0-15? |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 04:26
The average is weighted according to the number of raters on RYM and PA respectively, as the number of ratings is mostly much larger on RYM then PA. That is why this list is particularly interesting comparing to PA list.
And yes, the recalculation to 15-scale is just multiplication of the average by 3. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 05:48
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Good to know! Better than any proglist I've ever seen in any magazine/or made by "experts". Here's my personal favorite 50 out of the top 100. The ca. 30 first are essential to me, and I need to own the 20 next ones as well. Quite indifferent to the rest of these: Robert Wyatt (UK) : Rock Bottom (1974)
Gong (F) : You (1974) Tangerine Dream (D) : Phaedra (1974) Soft Machine (UK) : Third (1970) Klaus Schulze (D) : Mirage (1977) Comus (UK) : First Utterance (1971) King Crimson (UK) : In The Court Of The Crimson King (1969) Peter Hammill (UK) : The Silent Corner And… (1974) Van Der Graaf Generator (UK) : Pawn Hearts (1971) Roy Harper (UK) : Stormcock (1971) Miles Davis (US) : Bitches Brew (1970) Camel (UK) : Mirage (1974) Can (D) : Tago Mago (1971) Amon Düül II (D) : Yeti (1970) Area (I) : Arbeit Macht Frei (1973) Hatfield and the North (UK) : Hatfield and the North (1974) Santana (US) : Caravanserai (1972) Premiata Forneria Marconi (I) : Per Un Amico (1972) Flower Travellin’ Band (J) : Satori (1971) Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso (I) : Darwin! (1972) Steve Hackett (UK) : Voyage Of The Acolyte (1975) Aphrodite’s Child (Gre) : 666 (1972) Magma (F) : Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh (1973) Ash Ra Tempel (D) : Ash Ra Tempel (1971) Museo Rosenbach (I) : Zarathustra (1973) Le Orme (I) : Felona E Sorona (1973) Frank Zappa (US) : Hot Rats (1969) Genesis (UK) : Selling England By The Pound (1973) Yes (UK) : Close To The Edge (1972) Caravan (UK) : In The Land Of Grey And Pink (1971) Jean-Michel Jarre (F) : Oxygene (1976) Godspeed You! Black Emperor (CAN) : Lift Yr. Skinny… (2000) Faust (D) : Faust IV (1974) Pink Floyd (UK) : The Dark Side Of the Moon (1973) Black Sabbath (UK) : Paranoid (1970) Wishbone Ash (UK) : Argus (1972) The Moody Blues (UK) : Days Of Future Passed (1967) The Mothers (US) : The Grand Wazoo (1972) Gentle Giant (UK) : Octopus (1972) Mr. Bungle (US) : California (1999) NEU! (D) : NEU! (1972) Kayo Dot (US) : Choirs Of the Eye (2003) T2 (UK) : It’ll All Work out in Boomland (1970) Tool (US) : Lateralus (2001) Il Balletto di Bronzo (I) : Ys (1972) Traffic (UK) : John Barleycorn Must Die (1970) Kraftwerk (D) : Autobahn (1974) Opeth (S) : Blackwater Park (2001) Popol Vuh (D) : In den Gärten Pharaos (1971) Renaissance (UK) : Scheherazade And Other Stories (1975) |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 05:50
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Oh, and I do need Thick as a Brick as well
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 06:19
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Saperlipopette wrote: "Good to know! Better than any proglist I've ever seen in any magazine/or made by "experts". "Thank you very much for your appreciation, and in all my humble opinion, I agree because it's much more "democratic", meaning representive for the general opinion. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 06:37
Not meant as a criticism but rather because I tend to be obsessed with this kind of thing... as the RYM scale goes from zero to five, I'd have transformed this as (1+x)*5/6 first in order to transform it to 1-5 as the PA scale goes.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 06:51
 Lewian wrote:"... as the RYM scale goes from zero to five, I'd have transformed this as (1+x)*5/6 first in order to transform it to 1-5 as the PA scale goes." Sorry, I misunderstood your question about this. And I guess, what you suggest would be most exactly. Edit: But I'm not quite sure about that.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 07:08
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"... as the RYM scale goes from zero to five, I'd have transformed this as (1+x)*5/6 first in order to transform it to 1-5 as the PA scale goes." By the way, could that be some of the explanation for why PA averages tend to be quite a lot higher than RYM's? ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 07:50
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Cool list. One release per band is excellent. Some essential artists, imo, that were overlooked. Allan Holdsworth Pat Metheny Mike Keneally National Health Steely Dan Izz The Aristocrats Sanguine Hum Echolyn Thank You Scientist Thieves' Kitchen Dixie Dregs |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 07:58
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An "all-time top albums list" doesn't quite seem right while limiting bands to one submission per. The Beatles, the Stones, Elton John, U2, Pink Floyd, Radiohead, Coldplay, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, W.A Mozart, J.S. Bach, and Giacomo Puccini mitred down to one single album? Might as well be a "greatest hits" album! Tull's M.U., ELP's Works, The Beatles' red and/or blue compilation albums, Floyd's Echoes, or a band's live album! No, sir, this is not a parameter worthy of true music lovers. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 08:45
 instead of what I had suggested earlier, one could also compute overall mean and standard deviation of album ratings at PA and RYM and transform to (x-m)/s, where m and s are mean and standard deviation of the ratings of the corresponding site. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 09:07
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Interesting list. Would have been been interesting to weight number of ratings based on overall number so that it's not as heavily weighted to RYM. For example if DSOTM has the most ratings on either scale it gets a 100 score and all albums get a percentage applied. I'd also not stick to one album per band on this sort of list. Nice job. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 09:17
Well, that's a point of view to have, and a matter of choice. I have weighted a lot to include as many artists as possible, instead of the usually that the most known bands get almost all the attention. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 09:33
I also think one album per artist is an excellent idea, otherwise my own personal list would consist mostly of Mostly Autumn and Renaissance albums.
 |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 10:15
Nothing wrong with that. We like what we like (and it doesn't have to be in our wardrobe ;)).
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 11:01
I think good balance with top lists like that is on the one hand let them inspire you to broaden your musical horizon but on the other hand don't let them dictate too much to you. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 11:35
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It is a very bad, terrible ranking, as was to be expected, given that it takes into account, giving it half the weight, the RYM ranking which, as I have already said, counts like ZERO for me.
The Progarchives ranking, obtained randomly like that of RYM but more balanced because, I suppose made only by prog enthusiasts (and giving more weight to the site's collaborators), and the appreciable work of David_D (one album per artists) manages to limit the damage done by RYM, but
when I see Pawn Hearts behind Rush, Tool and Opeth, and the first Italian record in 35th place, for me it is enough to say that it counts zero.
------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 11:46
The problem is that in RYM the Pink Floyd albums occupy positions 1, 3, 5, 7 (4 places of the top 7), so, since Pink Floyd are also well positioned in Progarchives (3 albums in the top 10 ) if David hadn't chosen an album by artist, we would probably end up with Pink Floyd occupying 4 positions of the top 5 or 6. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 11:49
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 12:17
I'm surprised Pawn Hearts even made it onto the list at all.
 |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 12:19
Why? You know lots of people rate it very highly ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 12:32
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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 12:37
I know Pawn Hearts is generally highly-regarded here at PA, but it all comes down to personal tastes. I love VDGG's two classic 5-star albums from 1970, having bought them both on CD, but I've never been able to appreciate the complexities of the 2-star Pawn Hearts album, despite having listened to the album three times now. Anyway, what would you expect from someone whose all-time favourite ELO album is Xanadu.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 12:37
I agree but then jamesbaldwin (Lorenzo) is Italian, so i understand why he's upset.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 13:52
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There's some interesting discussion here because it's an interesting question what my list exactly can be said to be an expression of. There surely are differences between RYM and PA raters so maybe it's not so much about whom my list represent but just which albums are highest rated. And then just accept that the raters may have very different music preferences which partly is the case as well even if we only talk about PA raters. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 14:08
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How did you filter the RYM genres? I see GYBE made it but Radiohead didn't ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 15:01
The starting point was my definition of Prog which you can see here http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72615&FID=58 , and which largely speaking was equal to the subgenres used by PA. Then I used these subgenres to search for all the relevant bands on RYM, and on the basis of my definition and PA's decisions, I decided which bands to include or not include. There was of course some subjective elements there. As far it concerns Post-Rock bands, I wanted to include those whose music might be said to have sufficient complexity. I chose not to include at that time relevant (in term of ratings) Radiohead albums because I didn't find them to be sufficiently complex. That was of course my personal choice, and somebody else could decide otherwise. Edit: About Post-Rock and Radiohead, I better say, I don't remember exactly my thoughts at the time I made this list but I was thinking of course in terms of my Prog definition. And I must admit that I was in doubt about Radiohead's Kid A, however you want to classify it.
By the way, whatever to think about this question, I can surely recommend to read my interesting article about Prog definitions. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 18:01
In terms of complexity Radiohead should definitely make it, if that's the parameter. Though I don't think it is personally. Queen is more complex than Floyd, for instance, but I don't consider the former a prog band and I do the latter. ------------- I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 18:48
Precisely because a lot of votes come from teenagers, this list counts nothing to me. If you look at the ratings of Pink Floyd's records in the top 10 you see that they are about DOUBLE than those of the other albums present (apart from In the Court of ...), What does it mean? That The Dark Side of the Moon is a status symbol, everyone knows him, and therefore if someone passes by RYM he gives him 5 stars, especially if he knows not too much music and not too prog. My friends who are Tool fans would never dream of commenting a prog chart where Tool comes before Van der Graaf (also because they don't consider Tool music as prog). My list can be judged as you want, but what matters is the seriousness and the criterion, not the tastes, and from this point of view, mine is a serious list because made to be a ranking, the RYM ranking is simply a random list due to the collection of votes from anonymous people (I can't take it seriously, it mostly depends on the popularity of the artists and from the tastes of those who follow RYM). What I find difficult to explain is @Grumpyprogfan that my criterion for distinguishing serious rankings, that is done with method, and non-serious rankings, has (almost) nothing to do with my tastes. I try to give an example: in my ranking, divided into three blocks, the most popular bands are King Crimson, Pink Floyd and Van der Graaf (5 albums in total: 1 + 2 + 2). Genesis and Yes have 4 albums, but only one in the second block (1 + 1 + 2), EL & P are the most snubbed, with only 1 album in the last block. If a reviewer made a list by reversing the positions of EL & P, Yes and Genesis with KC, PF, VdGG, leaving the VdGGs only 1 album in the third block (as I did with EL & P), I would consider his list serious. I would notice that we have different critical evaluations, me with higher marks towards the eclectic prog and psychedelia, he towards the symphonic prog with music made with virtuosity. In short, it takes method, and there are some stakes not to be overcome. In my opinion, if a prog list puts Tool and Rush and Opeth (or Il Bacio della Medusa, La Coscienza di Zeno, La Maschera di Cera, to say three highly rated recent Italian groups) before KC or PF or VdGG or Genesis or Yes (with EL&P there would already be discussion) it got no value. Camille Saint Saens was a musical genius, I read that he had an ease in writing clear melodies comparable to that of WA Mozart, but no music critic dreams of putting the genius of Saint Saens before that of Mozart. (But perhaps a class of high school students who have listened to the Carnival of the animals (i.e- TDSOTM) many times could put it before Mozart).
------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 19:13
| ^Allan Holdsworth and Pat Metheny are musical geniuses, imo. Neither is on this top 100 list. And it's a good list, as good as your "serious ranking list". So are my picks more valid than yours? Nope. Just a list, not the holy grail. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: October 31 2021 at 23:06
I can additionally tell that I decided not to include all of the highrated, different kind of Metal bands (there would be a lot of them), so yes, this list is a result of some of my personal choices, and it just can't be otherwise. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 01 2021 at 01:08
Yes, and some people even rate it above all other albums. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 01 2021 at 03:22
But I would like to hear your opinion about what a list like that can be said to be an exactly expression of. Most appreciated/"greatest"/"best" albums? A lot of coincidences? A lot of raters following trend setters? Or what? And I've surely heard jamesbaldwin's - with all respect. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 01 2021 at 04:20
And, sorry, but for me, Pawn Hearts is just a messy H to He.. on it's way to Godbluff, and that's just an example on how different an album can be received by "Prog lovers". ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 01 2021 at 04:25
Not interested in the lists as such, but more your method - especially your recalculation over a 15 gradient scale (instead of 10, for ex) can you expand a bit, please? ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 01 2021 at 05:26
I see "Pawn Hearts" as a unified statement, and this is what makes it better than "H to He, Who Am the Only One", as much as I love that album also. With "Godbluff", they changed their sound. And while they will continue to produce great music, they won't produce anything with the magic of "Pawn Hearts". "Pawn Hearts" is not a pretty album. If anyone is looking for melodic music such as Yes or Genesis, they are looking in the wrong place. But if one wants to listen to melodic music such as Yes or Genesis, they should be listening to Yes or Genesis, and not complain that "Pawn Hearts" is not like that. However, if one is looking for an exceptional sonic experience that lies on the darker side of progressive rock, then maybe "Pawn Hearts" will satisfy that desire, as it did for me and continues to do for me all these years later. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 01 2021 at 06:43
Well, it's in fact rather random for this list and much due to the fact that in some earlier lists I've made, I included ratings from Gnosis who uses the 15-scale. I guess, the 10-scale could be quite good as well, but the 15-scale gives larger differences and if you only want to use one decimal, it's more precise. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: November 01 2021 at 06:45
On Rate Your Music Pat Metheny is not considered progressive rock. In this case, I really appreciate the articulated classification in genres and sub-genres made by RYM, which does not consider jazz rock fusion progressive rock, as well as distinguishes between progressive rock and progressive electronic. In this matter, the editors of RYM have done a great job. In my opinion, Progarchives has exceeded the prog boundaries considerably, and this also creates a lot of problems in the charts. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 01 2021 at 07:15
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I prophesy disaster wrote: With all respect...but this list is much about different tastes and nevertherless how common they are. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 01 2021 at 08:07
But okay, the seize and exactness of the averages might not be so important because the big question concerning the ranking is how to weight the average vs the number of ratings, and that is very subjective. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 02 2021 at 03:00
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jamesbaldwin wrote: "In my opinion, Progarchives has exceeded the prog boundaries considerably, and this also creates a lot of problems in the charts." I surely agree on the first part of this opinion but I consider it to be a very good thing for the Progressive Rock genre, and then you must accept what it implies.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 02 2021 at 03:23
I reckon you haven't seen my definition. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 02 2021 at 03:30
yup, I figured that was it (and totally agree with the rating scale - I'm a Gnosis rating member) But I'm more interested on how you are integrating the number of reviews in your equation and how it affects up or down the average .
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 02 2021 at 04:18
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Sean Trane wrote: "But I'm more interested on how you are integrating the number of reviews in your equation and how it affects up or down the average" Well, I just use RYM's and PA's averages for each album, and don't do any further with them (except weight them according to the number of ratings). So, regarding my list, if RYM's and PA's methods for calculating the averages are different, the averages are not quite comparable, and that can be said to be a methodic problem in my list - which I'm glad to become aware of. Edit: I guess there are differences in the methods which gives favour for PA's rating, compared to that every rating should weight equally. (So, maybe jamesbaldwin can't complain.
)------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 02 2021 at 06:04
Sorry if I seem to insist, but your list starts with the album with most ratings (I think that's the numbers in brackets before the "r") and this seems to drive up the scores to above 12.5 (though some/most of these albums would be up there, regardless) and yet Grey & Pink, COTC and Caravanserai are way down the list with a sensibly lesser amount of reviews. Surprisingly GYBE!'s album is abnormaly high given the weird amount of reviews It's that part of your leverage mechanism that I'm interested in.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 02 2021 at 10:37
|
Sean Trane wrote: "Sorry if I seem to insist, but your list starts with the album with most ratings (I think that's the numbers in brackets before the "r") and this seems to drive up the scores to above 12.5 (though some/most of these albums would be up there, regardless) and yet Grey & Pink, COTC and Caravanserai are way down the list with a sensibly lesser amount of reviews. Surprisingly GYBE!'s album is abnormaly high given the weird amount of reviews It's that part of your leverage mechanism that I'm interested in.  "It's very allright you insist to understand my ranking but it's apparently difficult for you to understand what I write. As I have written to you, I don't do anything concerning reviews, and so, I don't use any leverage mechanism. All I do for each album is to take RYM's and PA's average for it, and to calculate an average of these two averages, and this average is weighted according to the number of ratings given on RYM and PA respectively. So, in that way I have a total average, plus a sum (RYM+PA) of all ratings for each album. And then, depending of this combined average and number of ratings, I decide how I want to rank a certain album. In doing that, I can say, I weight quite a lot the number of ratings comparing to the average, which can be seen in my ranking. That is because I think, it's very important how many persons give very high rating. Anyway, this gives a good opportunity for others to hear about my ranking method, and please, still ask if you want some more to know or understand. Edit: Or it's more correct to say that I use the number of ratings as a kind of leverage mechanism, and how I do it, it's of course subjective, and can be done otherwise. And if you meant "ratings" when you wrote "reviews", I understand my confusion, and it's more like I misunderstood what you meant.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: November 02 2021 at 11:25
|
Just wanted to point out. Kansas is from (US). Topeka, Kansas to be specific. |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 02 2021 at 11:40
Good to know, and I'll correct that on the list. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 02 2021 at 14:41
Well, I personally believe that a list like that can be said to represent which albums are among the generally most appreciated ones. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: November 02 2021 at 15:06
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^The list you and jamesbaldwin made are good starting points to the world of prog. Nothing more. There are a crap ton of albums by bands that are never appreciated. Many bands I like are absent from such lists.
|
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: November 02 2021 at 16:13
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^But can you give some good arguments against my conclusion?
On the other hand, I understand your different approach, and I surely won't say it's good to let a list like that dictate much of ones musical listening. It's important first and foremost to follow ones own taste.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: December 25 2021 at 07:37
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Would anybody else like to have a look at this top list, or maybe comment it?
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 12 2022 at 09:21
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jump ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: February 25 2022 at 14:46
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David, as you suggested to continue our conversation on the '20 of your greatest UK prog rock classics' thread under this topic. I just wanted to share a few thoughts about your list of 100 top prog albums based on RYM and PA ratings. Firstly, with respect to the list itself, I do think it provides a credible ranking of the best prog albums, with the caveat that, as I mentioned, it's limited by the fact that you only include one album per band. I just had a quick look at RYM's top 100 prog-rock albums, and there are quite a few bands with several albums in the top 100 (same on PA). For instance, King Crimson has 6, Pink Floyd, Genesis and Rush have 5 each, Yes, VDGG and Gentle Giant have 4 each, etc. So I would say that by limiting your list to one album per band, one gets a better appreciation of the number of bands with highly-rated albums, but many highly appreciated albums are missing. Aside from that, I think the list is quite close to what I perceive are considered the best prog-albums (though I admit that I am not familiar with a number of them) and is roughly consistent with other lists that I find credible, such as Prog Magazine's "The 100 greatest prog albums of all time". You raised these questions on the '20 of your greatest UK prog rock classics' thread: "What I mean is that those albums are the highest rated but what does that exactly tell about the raters' view of them? Those albums are most liked? They are most appreciated? They are considered to be the best ones? They have got the highest status? They are maybe just those albums which were highest rated in the beginning, and the following raters just followed this high rating? Or what can be told about them in general?" I think these are all good questions and I have often wondered myself what is in peoples' heads when they rate albums and movies. I would think that, by and large, most people rate albums primarily based on whether they like them, or on how good they think the albums are, or a combination of both, though these other factors you mention probably come into play as well for some people. I can only speak for myself. If I'm asked which albums are my favorite (for example, on your 20 UK classics topic), then my choice is really based on my personal preferences. However, when I rate an album, I try to be "relatively" objective and rate it according to what I perceive to be the quality of the music, taking into account the time and context in which it was made. This is can be quite difficult sometimes because there are certain styles that I don't particularly enjoy or appreciate, but I may recognize the creativity or technical ability of the musicians. Sometimes, I read several reviews of an album to understand what others may like or not like in it, to help me come to a judgment. That said, I admit that I do let my personal preferences creep in to some extent, particularly if I feel that an album I like is under-rated, I will give the album maybe a higher rating than I objectively think it deserves (I use therm "objectively" here in a relative sense, because can one be truly objective about the arts?). Conversely, if after several listens of a highly-rated album, I really can't see what the hell is good about it, I will give that album a lower rating than its average rating, but maybe not too low as I still give the benefit of the doubt to other raters. What about yourself, how do you rate albums? |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 26 2022 at 05:50
Hi, RATING ... not ranking. The idea of ranking all that is the most insane ever, and is based on some numbers that most companies would not share anyway, or they will be charged even more taxes. The inclusion of only ONE artist instead of multiple albums, is something I have been requesting for a long time, which gives other artists a chance, when otherwise they won't be visible. How does it help Jethro Tull if 8 albums are listed, and 7 other bands are left out ... that will only happen if you don't give a sh*t about this music and its quality and its ability to last longer than a lifetime! And yes, if we can list 100 bands, we done the theme and idea RIGHT ... instead of a popular vote ... heck why bother calling it "progressive" when it is all about "popular" music and vote? Sometimes I wish we would wake up! In the end, we don't care about our music, because if we did, a lot more bands would get the appreciation here instead of a request for more albums from one band. Heck ... 5 from YES, 5 from KC, 7 from JT, 4 from ELP ... and that is 21 less artists mentioned and appreciated ... what a great service it would have been for the music itself ... the hippocrisy is stunning! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 26 2022 at 07:40
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Than you very much for your post here, Phil, I've found it very interesting and enjoyable to read. totally agree "What about yourself, how do you rate albums? " I do it pretty much the same way as you do it, but not much with "I try to be "relatively" objective and rate it according to what I perceive to be the quality of the music, taking into account the time and context in which it was made." - even it happens some times, and maybe I've begun to do it more. I'm certainly influenced by the average rating, but round up to a higher rating if I'm fond of the album. I can change my rating after I've listened to an album many more times, but most typically I rate albums which I know very well and have done it through long period of time. Most of the albums I've rated have been rather obscure ones with relatively few ratings, as I'd like my rating to make a difference and not just to drown in a very big number of other ratings. So I don't think that I'm a typical rater.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 26 2022 at 13:02
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I don't want you to interact with me anymore, moshkito.  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: February 26 2022 at 15:22
Just treat him like the method acting buffoon like the rest of us and take his input as comedy. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 26 2022 at 15:40
Thanks for this point of view, Ian, I'll think about it. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: February 26 2022 at 19:42
I appreciate the effort to do this list it, I would have eaten this up when I first got into Prog, not literally. Covers most of the bases. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 27 2022 at 06:43
Hi, As if all comedy was just stupid, stony bullcrap as a lot of American TV! One day, you both might know the difference! And maybe appreciate it some more!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 27 2022 at 09:52
|
moshkito, you know nothing about my points of view concerning the Western culture. You just presume a lot of negative things, and misinterpret me much of the time - even I've already told you that we have quite a lot in common in our points of view. In fact, it's a sad story. Edit: But okay moshkito, I may misinterpret you, as well, I can't say that for sure. I must admit, it's not easy for me to understand what you write, and these long post of yours are also due to some other reasons difficult for me to deal with. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 27 2022 at 13:45
Thanks, Mellotron, and I can tell that my reason to make this list has first and foremost been a way to get acquainted with more or less new-to-me Prog Rock albums.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 28 2022 at 00:30
Hi, Length should not have anything to do with the quality of what is being said. Otherwise, there would be hundreds of books burned because they are too long, hundreds of records ditched by wayside because they are too long, and a lot of Goya and other paintings that are way too big! I don't make them long because I want to be counter everyone's one word says nothing thing. I write it, and EXPLAIN what I stated, but since the majority of comments do not always show any explanation, then my posts look too big and confusing. I have never gone out of my way to confuse anyone and even in my directing days, it was about the simplicity of it all, and had nothing to do with the "intellectual" this and that ... so it's a bit weird, when someone tells me that they are too long, as if there was much more to the subject than we think, or care to know. My main concern is that in a lot of ways, the "simplicity" of many answers tries to take a huge subject, and turn it into a meaningless mishmash ... and many times we are doing just that ... and to me, the music that we call "progressive" (regardless of its many variations) is very valuable and important, and sometimes the semantics are not enough to explain it all ... and we're doing nothing but hitting our heads on a brick wall instead of trying to make sense of it all ... and even more important for me is the socialist view here of the folks defending the top ten (and very commercial) concept, something that "progressive" music was not into and tried hard to break ... how ironic and sad, that after all these years wanting some freedom, all they can now find is to be confined to a rest home ... left behind ... to wither and die! Sad, and poetic for sure, but sad!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: February 28 2022 at 05:00
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What's the quote "I wrote a long letter because I didn't have the time to write a short one"? Concise and to the point communication provides more clarity. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 28 2022 at 08:52
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Due to several reasons, I can't discuss those things with you, moshkito, but you certainly seem to misinterpret my whole approach to "favourite" lists. I've written about it in the "Prog fans in our 60's" thread (more than one post) if it may interest you - and if you don't find my reasons good enough, then we just disagree about it because I can't really see anything wrong about them. If you want to do something for socialism, I'm not the right one to hit on the head.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 28 2022 at 09:27
like write in Paul's "Symphonic Prog Collection" poll?:
 ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 28 2022 at 10:43
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By the way, Nogbad, will you classify Genesis' and Yes' music in the 80's as Neo-Prog/Symphonic, or do you consider it as something else? ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: February 28 2022 at 11:14
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I consider it as little as possible. My last Yes album is GFTO and last Genesis is Lamb. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 28 2022 at 12:30
I can't even eat the whole of the Lamb - if to tell it in Paul's way. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: February 28 2022 at 14:32
While I've got the impression that you might be one of the very most knowledgeable here about classifying. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: February 28 2022 at 14:34
The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is enough to make one a vegetarian Seriously though, for my part, I would consider Genesis' And Then There 3, Duke and Abacab as progressive pop-rock, if such a label can be used (and I do like these 3 albums), not prog as such or neo-prog. Anything after these albums (starting with the 1983 self-titled album) is pure pop-rock in my view. There are still a few instances of innovation but by and large, it's very mainstream, commercial music. As for Yes, I don't know enough about their music in the 80s to opine. |
Posted By: Hugh Manatee
Date Posted: February 28 2022 at 18:52
Yes, music is emotion and sometimes it might seem that our musical choices, and by extension our emotions are being trivialized. However it must also be understood that there is nothing more subjective than music and one persons tragedy might well be another persons comedy. Sure, don't treat the music we love as trivial, but also don't take things too seriously either. That way madness lies IMHO. ------------- I should have been a pair of ragged claws Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 01 2022 at 01:04
While again, somebody else has lost my respect concerning everything. - It's even a sadder story.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 01 2022 at 01:08
And how about respecting my points of view, moshkito? ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 01 2022 at 07:14
Hi, You have a point of view? You are just quoting others and confusing the words, and then saying something else. You simply don't like folks that have thoughts and ideas, since they put holes in your own "ideas". Let me tell you a secret from a WRITER, not just someone posting on this thread or PA ... it takes a lot more than just "ideas" to make your own work come out ... and it ain't about someone else ... it's about YOU ... I don't need to quote anyone to say what I do, and if you don't know the difference between wind and a fart ... that's your issue, not mine! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 01 2022 at 08:06
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About the albums on my toplist and all those which are correspondingly high rated,as I've been thinking so far, they're at least among the most appreciated ones, whentalking about Progressive Rock the way, I've defined it. The question is though, most appreciated by whom? Can the raters of those albums said to be representative for all the listeners of this meta-genre, as I've defined it? Edit: I find this question very difficult to answer, as Progressive Rock defined my way includes several very different styles, so when talking about all the listeners of all these styles,what sure can be said about it? - Unless, one look at every style separately and try to consider the question that way, which is quite a bit of work and involves users of two different sites (RYM + PA), and which have contributed with different number of raters for each album. Not to mention the fact that all the ratings have been accumulated over quite a lot of years. But I believe that the raters are sufficient representative in relation to the whole meta-genre so it can be said that the albums on the list are among those Progressive Rock albums which are highest appreciated.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 02 2022 at 04:52
I've given it a try but you seem to be right - if to say it in a polite way. Edit: just a lot of negative energy - a sad story
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 03 2022 at 02:08
By the way, in which way "the best", Phil?  ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: March 03 2022 at 13:27
Hhmm...Reading this again, I think I expressed better what I mean in a subsequent sentence in my post: "I think the list is quite close to what I perceive are considered the best prog-albums". It would be impossible for me (and I think anyone) to say they are the best, as there are so many other less known prog-rock albums I have not listened to that may be just as good or better than those on that list, and there's a highly subjective element in making that determination anyway. So to be clear, I am not saying that they are the best, or even among the best, but they are among the most critically acclaimed or appreciated (as you suggest), and arguably among the most influential prog-rock albums, based on the definition that you have used (I will come back to that point below) - so in that sense, one could say that they are "considered" among the best. But I am speaking generally here and emphasize this is based on my perception (which could be wrong) as someone who is not an expert, and taking into account not only the compound RYM and Prog Archive rating you calculated, but also looking at how critics have rated many of these albums (at least the ones I am aware of) and other lists of "best prog-rock" albums (such as by Prog Magazine's, which was compiled based on votes by many subscribers, and the Rolling Stones's top 50 prog-rock albums for example). In terms of your question "appreciated by whom"?, I would say, generally by interested music listeners, prog fans and critics. There is of course no doubt that there are many many other albums that are appreciated, some perhaps by even more people, and many by less, that are not on this list, and that's fine. I don't think anybody will or should see the list as "the gospel" of prog-rock. Just to raise a few considerations though. It seems that the definition you have used to consider albums and bands for inclusion in this list is a relatively wide definition, which is ok by me, but this means that several of your most highly rated albums may not be considered real "prog-rock" by others. For instance, while the albums by Miles Davis, Black Sabbath, Godspeed You Black Emperor and Captain Beefheart may be highly appreciated, you will not find them on Prog Magazine's list - I think because many prog fans, rightly or wrongly, do not consider them to be "prog-rock". Conversely, some may consider Radiohead's OK Computer to be prog enough to be considered, but I noted it was not your list even though I think it is the #1 album on RYM. I do not want to take issue with the definition here, but just point out how relevant it is in determining the albums that make up any list of this kind. In addition, as I previously mentioned, I consider your list to be more representative of the bands with highly appreciated albums, rather the most appreciated albums as such (although it is both), since it is limited to one album per band. Now before I get Moshkito all worked up again (understanding that I may do that whatever I say), I'm NOT saying that you "should" include more than one album per band, I'm just make an observation, and note that it makes it a bit difficult to compare your list with other "Best 100 or 50" lists of this kind. For my part, I don't see that there's anything wrong with mentioning other albums by Pink Floyd, Rush or Marillion if they happen to be highly acclaimed and appreciated by prog fans. I don't see that the primary purpose of this list should be to promote awareness of less well-known bands.There are plenty of other good threads on PA on bands that do not make the cut on this list, which shows that they are very much appreciated, and if one thinks some bands lack appreciation, they are free to start a new discussion topic any such band.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 04 2022 at 01:49
I think this is very pertinent , and also I struggled to find any Led Zep in the list. They would probably be the most important rock band of the last century and certainly were very progressive (if not ''prog'') in those key 1967-1971 years. Its actually very hard to differentiate between progressive music and prog rock other than looking at the years when prog happened.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 04 2022 at 03:59
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no need for this one anymore ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 04 2022 at 04:39
I'm very fond of Led Zeppelin, richardh, but I don't even consider them to be a part of Progressive Music, rather more of the sophisticated part of mainstream Rock - the same concerning OK Computer. There's certainly a difference in progressivity when comparing LZ to say ELP, and as I see it, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple for instance are more progressive than Led Zeppelin.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 05 2022 at 01:25
but that's entirely subjective, my point being that trying to compile a list objectively is actually impossible when you are still making decisions about what is 'progressive' or not.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 05 2022 at 03:06
I certainly won't try to define Progressive Music, but I find my definition of Progressive Rock to be reasonnable enough to use. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 05 2022 at 03:36
I certainly won't claim that the choices for my list are done entirely objectively, that's never possible (or you tell me in which way), but I'd say they are fairly objective when done on basis of my Progressive Rock definition, plus how PA and RYM had classified the albums in question. David_D wrote: "The definition for Progressive Rock, I've been used as a basis for this list, is following: 1. be a synthesis/fusion of Rock (significantly present) and at least one of other "main genres": Classical, Jazz, Folk, electronic avant-garde or other avant-garde, AND 2. be rather complex or at least to some extent experimental in another way than #1." Besides that, richardh, I don't think that you'd find any critic who would classify Led Zeppelin as Progressive Rock.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 05 2022 at 08:02
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Are you okay, moshkito? ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 06 2022 at 12:19
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after second thought ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 07 2022 at 01:24
that's an incredibly dubious statement because you simply can't know this.
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 07 2022 at 08:52
Well, I don't find that statement particularly dubious. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Philchem8
Date Posted: March 07 2022 at 18:09
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In my opinion, while Led Zeppelin has several songs that would qualify as progressive rock, as a band, I don't think they are usually considered to be progressive rock. They are not usually define as such in rock guides and one does not normally see their albums among the best prog-rock albums lists (for instance see the 100 best prog albums on this site). However, I think it is certainly possible to justify a definition of prog-rock that would include LZ. As someone else said, any definition needs to be flexible to accommodate changes and evolution in styles. On the other hand, I don't think a definition should be entirely subjective, or else what are we talking about? How can we communicate about music if all definitions and categories of music are entirely subjective? This brings me to a thought I had when I first joined this site in October of last year. It's a great site, but for a place that is a primary internet resource on progressive rock, it's a little surprising not to find, if not a definition, at least an agreed understanding of what this site considers to be progressive rock. The home page refers to a few guides and that's fine, but what does the site itself think? I realize it would of course be very difficult for everyone here to agree on a very specific definition, but just pointing out something that I think could be considered at least by the managers or old timers of this site. To his credit, David has tried to come up with, and stimulate discussion on, a definition (I refer to his thread on how to define progressive rock). But this definition does not have any official status on this site. Anyway, I agree it's impossible to have an objective definition. In the end, as long as we recognize the limitations of whatever definition we use or whatever list we decide to make, and we are conscious and transparent about the criteria we use, that's the best we can do, and then people can agree to disagree! |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 08 2022 at 13:04
| ^ yep but the point of the thread is to try and gain a more objectively determined ranking based on having more ratings (RYM has that obviously) . The problem is when you decide where the artist boundaries are and suddenly it falls apart. IMO |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: March 09 2022 at 09:26
As I see it, richardh, it's neither possible nor desireable to draw the exact line between Progressive Rock and non-Progressive in an entire objective way. In case of some albums, it can only be done and it's best to do it subjectively - so I can't see anything falling apart here, Richardh, and all the others, who have seen this list, have found it just fine as well.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |