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David_D View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2021 at 04:20
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'm surprised Pawn Hearts even made it onto the list at all. Tongue

 
Why? You know lots of people rate it very highly
 
Yes, and some people even rate it above all other albums.
 


And, sorry, but for me, Pawn Hearts is just a messy H to He.. on it's way to Godbluff, and that's just an example on how different an album can be received by "Prog lovers".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2021 at 04:25
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Made in March-April 2019 based on all the ratings on RateYourMusic and ProgArchives but only 1 (studio) album from each band is included. The averages of all the ratings are weighted according to the number of raters on RYM and PA respectively, and then recalculated to 15-scale.


Not interested in the lists as such, but more your method - especially your recalculation over a 15 gradient scale (instead of 10, for ex)

can you expand a bit, please?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2021 at 05:26
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Yes, and some people even rate it above all other albums.
 
And, sorry, but for me, Pawn Hearts is just a messy H to He.. on it's way to Godbluff, and that's just an example on how different an album can be received by "Prog lovers".
 
I see "Pawn Hearts" as a unified statement, and this is what makes it better than "H to He, Who Am the Only One", as much as I love that album also.
 
With "Godbluff", they changed their sound. And while they will continue to produce great music, they won't produce anything with the magic of "Pawn Hearts".
 
"Pawn Hearts" is not a pretty album. If anyone is looking for melodic music such as Yes or Genesis, they are looking in the wrong place. But if one wants to listen to melodic music such as Yes or Genesis, they should be listening to Yes or Genesis, and not complain that "Pawn Hearts" is not like that.
 
However, if one is looking for an exceptional sonic experience that lies on the darker side of progressive rock, then maybe "Pawn Hearts" will satisfy that desire, as it did for me and continues to do for me all these years later.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2021 at 06:43
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Made in March-April 2019 based on all the ratings on RateYourMusic and ProgArchives but only 1 (studio) album from each band is included. The averages of all the ratings are weighted according to the number of raters on RYM and PA respectively, and then recalculated to 15-scale.


Not interested in the lists as such, but more your method - especially your recalculation over a 15 gradient scale (instead of 10, for ex)

can you expand a bit, please?




Well, it's in fact rather random for this list and much due to the fact that in some earlier lists I've made, I included ratings from Gnosis who uses the 15-scale.
I guess, the 10-scale could be quite good as well, but the 15-scale gives larger differences and if you only want to use one decimal, it's more precise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2021 at 06:45
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Allan Holdsworth and Pat Metheny are musical geniuses, imo. Neither is on this top 100 list. And it's a good list, as good as your "serious ranking list". So are my picks more valid than yours? Nope. Just a list, not the holy grail.

On Rate Your Music Pat Metheny is not considered progressive rock. In this case, I really appreciate the articulated classification in genres and sub-genres made by RYM, which does not consider jazz rock fusion progressive rock, as well as distinguishes between progressive rock and progressive electronic. In this matter, the editors of RYM have done a great job. In my opinion, Progarchives has exceeded the prog boundaries considerably, and this also creates a lot of problems in the charts. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2021 at 07:15
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:
"I see "Pawn Hearts" as a unified statement..."

With all respect...but this list is much about different tastes and nevertherless how common they are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2021 at 08:07
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Made in March-April 2019 based on all the ratings on RateYourMusic and ProgArchives but only 1 (studio) album from each band is included. The averages of all the ratings are weighted according to the number of raters on RYM and PA respectively, and then recalculated to 15-scale.


Not interested in the lists as such, but more your method - especially your recalculation over a 15 gradient scale (instead of 10, for ex)

can you expand a bit, please?




But okay, the seize and exactness of the averages might not be so important because the big question concerning the ranking is how to weight the average vs the number of ratings, and that is very subjective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2021 at 03:00
jamesbaldwin wrote:
"In my opinion, Progarchives has exceeded the prog boundaries considerably, and this also creates a lot of problems in the charts."

I surely agree on the first part of this opinion but I consider it to be a very good thing for the Progressive Rock genre, and then you must accept what it implies. Smile


Edited by David_D - November 02 2021 at 03:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2021 at 03:23
Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague TheLionOfPrague wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

How did you filter the RYM genres? I see GYBE made it but Radiohead didn't

The starting point was my definition of Prog which you can see here http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72615&FID=58 , and which largely speaking was equal to the subgenres used by PA. Then I used these subgenres to search for all the relevant bands on RYM, and on the basis of my definition and PA's decisions, I decided which bands to include or not include. There was of course some subjective elements there.
As far it concerns Post-Rock bands, I wanted to include those whose music might be said to have sufficient complexity. I chose not to include at that time relevant (in term of ratings) Radiohead albums because I didn't find them to be sufficiently complex. That was of course my personal choice, and somebody else could decide otherwise.

Edit:
And I must admit that I was in doubt about Radiohead's Kid A, however you want to classify it.


In terms of complexity Radiohead should definitely make it, if that's the parameter. Though I don't think it is personally. Queen is more complex than Floyd, for instance, but I don't consider the former a prog band and I do the latter. 

I reckon you haven't seen my definition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2021 at 03:30
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Made in March-April 2019 based on all the ratings on RateYourMusic and ProgArchives but only 1 (studio) album from each band is included. The averages of all the ratings are weighted according to the number of raters on RYM and PA respectively, and then recalculated to 15-scale.


Not interested in the lists as such, but more your method - especially your recalculation over a 15 gradient scale (instead of 10, for ex)

can you expand a bit, please?




Well, it's in fact rather random for this list and much due to the fact that in some earlier lists I've made, I included ratings from Gnosis who uses the 15-scale.
I guess, the 10-scale could be quite good as well, but the 15-scale gives larger differences and if you only want to use one decimal, it's more precise.


yup, I figured that was it (and totally agree with the rating scale - I'm a Gnosis rating member)

But I'm more interested on how you are integrating the number of reviews in your equation and how it affects up or down the average


.


Edited by Sean Trane - November 02 2021 at 03:31
let's just stay above the moral melee
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keep our sand-castle virtues
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as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2021 at 04:18
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote: 
"But I'm more interested on how you are integrating the number of reviews in your equation and how it affects up or down the average"

Well, I just use RYM's and PA's averages for each album, and don't do any further with them (except weight them according to the number of ratings). So, regarding my list, if RYM's and PA's methods for calculating the averages are different, the averages are not quite comparable, and that can be said to be a methodic problem in my list - which I'm glad to become aware of.

Edit:
I guess there are differences in the methods which gives favour for PA's rating, compared to that every rating should weight equally.
(So, maybe jamesbaldwin can't complain. Smile)


Edited by David_D - November 02 2021 at 04:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2021 at 06:04
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote: 
"But I'm more interested on how you are integrating the number of reviews in your equation and how it affects up or down the average"

Well, I just use RYM's and PA's averages for each album, and don't do any further with them (except weight them according to the number of ratings). So, regarding my list, if RYM's and PA's methods for calculating the averages are different, the averages are not quite comparable, and that can be said to be a methodic problem in my list - which I'm glad to become aware of.

Edit:
I guess there are differences in the methods which gives favour for PA's rating, compared to that every rating should weight equally.
(So, maybe jamesbaldwin can't complain. Smile)


Sorry if I seem to insist, but your list starts with the album with most ratings (I think that's the numbers in brackets before the "r") and this seems to drive up the scores to above 12.5 (though some/most of these albums would be up there, regardless) and yet Grey & Pink, COTC and Caravanserai are way down the list with a sensibly lesser amount of reviews. Surprisingly GYBE!'s album is abnormaly high given the weird amount of reviews

It's that part of your leverage mechanism that I'm interested in. Smile

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Pink Floyd  (UK) :   The Dark Side Of the Moon  (1973)   12,7 (44.900 r.)
King Crimson  (UK) :   In The Court Of The Crimson King  (1969)   13,0 (32.100 r.)
[Black Sabbath  (UK) :   Paranoid  (1970)   12,7 (25.900 r.)]
Yes  (UK) :   Close To The Edge  (1972)   12,7 (18.900 r.)

Godspeed You! Black Emperor  (CAN) :  Lift Yr. Skinny… (2000)   12,5 (23.500 r.)

Genesis  (UK) :   Selling England By The Pound  (1973)   12,6 (14.700 r.)

Jethro Tull  (UK) :   Thick As A Brick  (1972)   12,6 (11.900 r.)

Miles Davis  (US) :   Bitches Brew  (1970)   12,5 (13.900 r.)

Can  (D) :   Tago Mago  (1971)   12,3 (16.600 r.)

Frank Zappa  (US) :   Hot Rats  (1969)   12,3 (14.900 r.)

Tool  (US) :   Lateralus  (2001)   11,9 (16.500 r.)

Rush  (CAN) :   Moving Pictures  (1981)   12,0 (13.200 r.)

Opeth  (S) :   Blackwater Park  (2001)   11,9 (13.300 r.)

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2021 at 10:37
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote: 
"Sorry if I seem to insist, but your list starts with the album with most ratings (I think that's the numbers in brackets before the "r") and this seems to drive up the scores to above 12.5 (though some/most of these albums would be up there, regardless) and yet Grey & Pink, COTC and Caravanserai are way down the list with a sensibly lesser amount of reviews. Surprisingly GYBE!'s album is abnormaly high given the weird amount of reviews

It's that part of your leverage mechanism that I'm interested in. Smile"

It's very allright you insist to understand my ranking but it's apparently difficult for you to understand what I write.
As I have written to you, I don't do anything concerning reviews, and so, I don't use any leverage mechanism. All I do for each album is to take RYM's and PA's average for it, and to calculate an average of these two averages, and this average is weighted according to the number of ratings given on RYM and PA respectively.
So, in that way I have a total average, plus a sum (RYM+PA) of all ratings for each album. And then, depending of this combined average and number of ratings, I decide how I want to rank a certain album. In doing that, I can say, I weight quite a lot the number of ratings comparing to the average, which can be seen in my ranking. 
That is because I think, it's very important how many persons give very high rating.

Anyway, this gives a good opportunity for others to hear about my ranking method, and please, still ask if you want some more to know or understand.

Edit:
Or it's more correct to say that I use the number of ratings as a kind of leverage mechanism, and how I do it, it's of course subjective, and can be done otherwise.  And if you meant "ratings" when you wrote "reviews", I understand my confusion, and it's more like I misunderstood what you meant.


Edited by David_D - November 03 2021 at 13:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2021 at 11:25
Just wanted to point out. Kansas is from (US). Topeka, Kansas to be specific.

Kansas  (CAN) :   Leftoverture  (1976)   
11,6 (3.700 r.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2021 at 11:40
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Just wanted to point out. Kansas is from (US). Topeka, Kansas to be specific.

Kansas  (CAN) :   Leftoverture  (1976)   
11,6 (3.700 r.)


Good to know, and I'll correct that on the list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2021 at 14:41
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

There's some interesting discussion here because it's an interesting question what my list exactly can be said to be an expression of. There surely are differences between RYM and PA raters so maybe it's not so much about whom my list represent but just which albums are highest rated. And then just accept that the raters may have very different music preferences which partly is the case as well even if we only talk about PA raters.

But I would like to hear your opinion about what a list like that can be said to be an exactly expression of. Most appreciated/"greatest"/"best" albums? A lot of coincidences? A lot of raters following trend setters? Or what?
And I've surely heard jamesbaldwin's - with all respect.

Well, I personally believe that a list like that can be said to represent which albums are among the generally most appreciated ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2021 at 15:06
^The list you and jamesbaldwin made are good starting points to the world of prog. Nothing more. 

There are a crap ton of albums by bands that are never appreciated. Many bands I like are absent from such lists.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2021 at 16:13
^But can you give some good arguments against my conclusion?

On the other hand, I understand your different approach, and I surely won't say it's good to let a list like that dictate much of ones musical listening. It's important first and foremost to follow ones own taste.


Edited by David_D - November 02 2021 at 17:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 25 2021 at 07:37

Would anybody else like to have a look at this top list, or maybe comment it?


Edited by David_D - December 25 2021 at 07:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2022 at 09:21

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