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The boring "Rewriting Classics" administration pit

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JD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2021 at 14:53
Not sure what you mean by REASONING?
Why does a question need a reason, the reason is...I don't know the answer.

You might also want to mention...

The InsproBot creates inspirational posters II

The First Prog Lyric Part That Pops Into Your Mind

The Counting Thread
The Cover Chain game!!
Anytime someone quote someone else in a post

Just to name a few more examples that also fall within the whole copyright discussion.



Edited by JD - August 13 2021 at 14:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2021 at 15:59
Legally speaking it is all quite simple (and not that different in Europe, the USA or Canada...): The reproduction of copyrighted content should be done with the permission of the copyright holders, otherwise it could be considered a copyright infringement.
I doubt that all the embedded videos, reproduced lyrics, photos, album covers, etc. etc. here on PA (site and forum) have that permission...

Now, what to do about that? Nothing, in my opinion. But that is actually a question the site owner(s) should answer and act eventually accordingly. We are in what I call the "grey zone" or the "tolerance zone" for which much lobbying is going on to regulate it better ("Fair use" is an example of that). For the moment it mostly relies on the tolerance of copyright holders if they allow things to be used in a way that is not competing with their own exploitation of their work.

What we are doing here on the PA forums has no commercial intent when we embed a video, reproduce a lyric, etc. so the worst thing that could happen, I think, is that the site owner receives a nice letter from a lawyer that will ask that this or that work should be removed from the site, "or else"... We remove it and that's it. Or we make it a case and defend our "fair use" of that material and a judge might agree with us, or not... That would be a strategy if the site owner likes to go to tribunals. I guess he doesn't, so the most simple thing to do is remove the content in question and go on with our everyday PA life.

Of course, it is good that PA reminds its users now and then that they use copyrighted material and should not make abuse of it (e.g. embed a whole album, all the lyrics of a band, etc.), but let's continue the way we are doing things here and when there's a letter from a lawyer, we act accordingly. That's all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2021 at 22:32
There has been a very clear warning about copyrighted material in the site rules and guidelines since 2008.

I have participated in the "rewriting" threads and they are pretty entertaining. Apparently I have not paid close enough attention to notice that full lyrics were being posted.

Posting copyrighted song lyrics is a violation of site policy. Please avoid doing that in the future and make sure any existing original lyrics are removed..

Don't let this kill a fun thread.

Edited by Tapfret - August 13 2021 at 22:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2021 at 05:17
^ It's fine with me (as I said earlier: "unless/until admins tell us to act differently."), but I think it is a bit double standard regarding allowing video embeds but not lyrics... (which is of course not at all a plea to stop these too!).

Yesterday I already deleted the lyrics I posted in the threads I started and hope that everyone who has posted original lyrics before will do the same. We can link to an existing lyrics page instead at the start of each new #, so we continue to have the same reference without being bad boys (and girls?)...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heart of the Matter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2021 at 08:08
I don't see a problem with posting a link to the lyrics site. In order to keep up with the line number, a counter can be posted and updated in the OP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2021 at 08:39
I already suggested posting a small section of the lyrics at a time until they are "re-imagined" or even posting a link to the lyrics where they are being used legally.  It wouldn't be that hard to do this.

Also, here is an article I found that will answer a lot of questions about the concerns of posting/sharing lyrics online.  Here’s what you need to know about sharing lyrics online | The FADER

As far as the embedding of videos, I will look into that, but since it is linked to YouTube, I'm not sure if it's a problem.  I will see what I can find out.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2021 at 09:48
Apparently, at least in Europe, embedding is not a copyright infringement. See here:
Quote “The embedding in a website of a protected work which is publicly accessible on another website by means of a link using the framing technology … does not by itself constitute communication to the public within the meaning of [the EU Copyright directive] to the extent that the relevant work is neither communicated to a new public nor by using a specific technical means different from that used for the original communication."
And here a 22 page pdf that compares the EU legislation with those in the US of A (I haven't read it yet...).

So, we can be relieved regarding the embedded videos...!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2021 at 18:50
Thanks Kees.  Glad to see an actual document on the subject and I'm thrilled that you took the time to research this.  I'll be reading that pdf that you posted, but from what I have understood, it's what I suspected: the embedded video thing isn't an infringement, but don't take that as gospel yet....

Quoting from that document:  Hyperlinks have been described as the “digital equivalent of giving the recipient driving directions to another website on the Internet”. [footnote removed, see article] The hyperlink itself does not contain the copyrighted or protected derivative work. [footnote removed, see article]


Edited by TCat - August 14 2021 at 19:00

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2021 at 02:14
OK, back to business: since the sledge was hammered, we can now wuther the heights of Bush.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2021 at 05:27
Kate has reached her heights although some input was deerly missing (come back JD, come back! Wink).
Someone volunteering for #26?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2021 at 07:01
Personally I think picking on annoying tacky songs (Sledgehammer, Hallelujah) works better for me than picking on good songs, but thats just me. Sorry I missed Rocky Mountain Way, that one's pretty tacky too.
What do others think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heart of the Matter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2021 at 08:49
What about The Sphinx In The Face, by Van Der Graaf? It's got a rhythm and a rhyming that stick with you from the beginning, and yet it's a reasonably good song.
BTW, I miss JD too, not the same without him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2021 at 14:35
Sorry for bowing out on the KB. I was throwing a tantrum about not posting the lyrics. I will most likely avoid any that don't include the lyrics in the OP going forward.

Plus, this morning I got hired on as the Project Manager for a green field plant build and they have to be out of their current location by Jan 2023. I have no idea how I'm going to pull that off given that they still haven't closed on the purchase of the new build site and there are huge delays in getting building materials right now, especially little things like steel for roofing. Ermm

I may be jumping in and out from time to time and will try and contribute.
I feel the love. Hug
Thanks.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2021 at 15:02
^ Remember, the first dozen or so were done without the lyrics in the OP... I admit, it is more convenient with them, but a link does the job for me... It won't avoid some glitches from time to time, but that's part of the charm, I think.

Good to hear you have a big project at hand, if still not entirely solid... Something precious these times when one is working on project base (like I do, outside of my teaching things).

Anyway, jump in when you can/want!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2021 at 15:10
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Personally I think picking on annoying tacky songs (Sledgehammer, Hallelujah) works better for me than picking on good songs, but thats just me. Sorry I missed Rocky Mountain Way, that one's pretty tacky too.
What do others think?

Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

What about The Sphinx In The Face, by Van Der Graaf? It's got a rhythm and a rhyming that stick with you from the beginning, and yet it's a reasonably good song.

Like both ideas. I think the "tacky" songs have resonance with more PA members. The classic rock/pop hits seem to work well regarding participation (so, does this mean that we all here at PA are actually preferring the tacky/poppy music and that our love for prog is just an "attitude"? Wink)
But I think it is OK to alternate them with the more proggy songs, although I think a certain "popularity" or "accessibility" helps to get more participation... The more difficult prog songs wear out on participation on the long run (as we've seen with Pirates), but well... we sometimes have to take up a challenge...

All this, to say actually... nothing... Ermm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2021 at 15:52
^ For me, the tacky songs work because I have a hard time denigrating a song that is a good song or artistic (proggy). I also have a hard time denigrating a song I'm not familiar with.
Annoying songs i have heard way too many times are more fun to destroy, but thats just me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2021 at 16:09
^ Ah, that's funny... I never looked at it from that perspective... I mean, I never had the idea that we were denigrating the original songs - I think they've proven their outstanding and everlasting qualities, so we will not be able to denigrate them. We're not making fun of them, but making fun with them, imo. Otherwise I would not have started all this.
With the first one, Hotel California, it was never my intention to denigrate that song, I love it - it's an all time classic for me. And I love all those original songs that we have "rewritten", so far. But I don't mind at all turning them into a joke, they can have it and it won't alter my admiration for those songs (even the Phil Collins one!). Beer

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2021 at 16:32
^     

Edited by Easy Money - September 01 2021 at 16:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2021 at 05:43
Not denigrate...sillyfy ! (a word of my own making)
Building on some of the previous comments I believe the lyrics should be somewhat easily transferred into other words. So, take a line or two and think to yourself, how easily and humourously can this lyric be modified. Maybe this game should now have a poll added to decide which song to massacre next. Wink


Edited by JD - September 02 2021 at 05:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2021 at 07:22
^ Okay, sillify for some songs, ...but denigrate for the ones I don't like
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