Why something boring in the "Just for Fun" section? Well, because of the recent mini-milestone of our 10th Rewriting success (!), I thought it might be a good idea to keep track of all the efforts so far. This can be helpful for those drinking too much and forgetting what they have been working on, as well as for those new to this kind of challenge in order to know what has been done before and to decide if they're up to the high standards of these Rewriting Classics talents that have been emerging recently...

For those discovering the major endeavour of Rewriting Classics and feel tempted to show their talents, here's a short reminder of the rules:

And: In a good prog tradition, the lyrics don't necessarily have to make much sense...

The Rewriting successes so far:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=124881" rel="nofollow - Rewriting classics... #1: Hotel California (The Eagles)

Time's up... I mean, we've done time... I mean... Oh, well...

So, who fancies launching #12?

Sultans don't swing no more! Come Sail Away with us for http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=126177" rel="nofollow - #13 !

Great choice !

Yesterday I almost listened to The Grand Illusion, but I chose Pieces of Eight instead...

The problem with that is people get bored or unresponsive if it goes on too long.

I saw that happening with Pirates.

Best to keep them shorter and with lines can be easily reworked.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Agreed, it's tough enough keeping the 50 "come sail away" choruses straight.

If there's one thing I've learned in my short time on this big ball of dirt...never leave a job undone.

The follow up should be a poll to vote on the best rewritten song lyrics.

^ "Might" is the good word. It would also depend what reference everyone is using (lyrics site, booklet/LP-sleeve, etc.). And sometimes we cut one line in two... Let's not formalize all this too much, it's just for fun!

It would be good though if every OP that starts a # signals the end of it (which has always been done up till now...), which is also a good sign to start a new one (which is open anyone who wants).

Well now you're just making extra work.

I guess the solution (I'm a solutions kinda guy) would be to post the actual lyrics in the first post. Then the OP could strike out the lines as they are presented. But again...it takes more effort and attention.

However, since this thread is bound to continue for years to come maybe a more formal structure would help?

^ It's an idea. And I'm not necessarily against it, but I think we should not formalize all this too much: it's not "work", it's "fun", and I'm afraid that the more you formalize things the less fun they will be.

There are songs that are easier than others (better known, simple lyrics, clear articulation...) and sometimes we make mistakes, as I did in Come Sail Away. JD retook/corrected me and relaunched where we should be.

Now, with My Sharona, I have the impression we lost track too (but maybe it's just me...), so I tried to relaunch it now. Please tell me if I'm wrong, Heart of the Matter, and I will correct my message!

We had some glitches earlier on, but they were picked up easily and we got to the end of all songs (although I have a doubt regarding Walk This Way...). Sometimes, the poetic liberty of one might confuse the other, but to me this is all part of the fun. Some songs attract more participants than others, some become a bit laborious, some are more difficult, sometimes the singing has a different articulation than the lyrics in writing... Then again: I'm afraid that when we formalize more, it will loose its fun aspect. But these are just my thoughts and I don't mind being contradicted.

JD wrote: Is this what happens when government doesn't work?

Long live Anarchy!

But to get back to your solution:

JD wrote: I guess the solution (I'm a solutions kinda guy) would be to post the actual lyrics in the first post. Then the OP could strike out the lines as they are presented.

The first part - putting the original lyrics in the OP - is easy, but the second part seems to be a bit unfeasible, at least for me: I'm not on PA 24 hours a day - Sex, Sleep, Eat, Drink, Dream... take time too (and cycling, hiking, talking to the cat, visiting friends, working, annoying students, etc, etc...), so there will be moments (sometimes even days) that I won't be available to log in and strike out lines...

And, as soon as it starts to look like homework, I will be much less inclined to participate, but if there are some brilliant ideas, let's hear them!

Really, how it works now is fine for me. Posting the original lyrics in the OP seems a good thing. However, formalizing this more than that feels to me like it's going against the spirit of a "Just for fun" thread. My two cents...

Now I'm getting out of this post, because it gets much too serious...

Perfectly reasonable.

I certainly won't impose my OCD on anyone.

Let the gods decide.

^ Fine with me, let's make that #16!

Edit: Of course on the condition that you teach your pupils the song with our new lyrics...!

JD wrote: I guess the solution (...) would be to post the actual lyrics in the first post.

Oh gosh, I knew this would become boring...

Actually, on second thought, reproducing the original lyrics at the start of a new Rewriting-Classics-thread is not a good idea: it could be considered as an infringement of copyright (well, it actually is: we are reproducing lyrics!).

I guess most of the copyright holders themselves wouldn't have much of a problem with what we're doing, but the problem is mostly the copyright managers, and they see money in everything, even when it's not there... So, I guess, before admins interfere (or give us the green light), it is better not to reproduce the original lyrics at the start of each # but rather to link to a page where the lyrics are available (and thus the eventual copyright infringement is on their account and not ours/PA's...).

Sorry to be such a bore...

^I'm sorry but that's an extreme view IMHO. There are fair use laws that protect using material in comedic and satirical applications. Clearly that's what we are doing here. There is no profit attempted or implied. If it will make you sleep better at night I'll even include the writers credit at the end of the lyrics. Please ,let's not get carried away with JUST FOR FUN !

Feel free to direct any legal concerns my way. I'll handle it !

Hehe... OK, I got 12 phone calls today, so I will give them your number...

Jokes aside, the "fair use" is legally still very ill-defined (case law is also very country dependent), but I agree with you that in principle we probably don't have much to worry (as long as lyrics are also freely available elsewhere, and we can delete them easily on demand). And I don't mind going ahead with this (i.e. giving the original lyrics at the start of each RwC-thread), unless/until admins tell us to act differently.

It's just that sometimes my professional experience regarding copyright/authors rights makes me very aware when it comes into play... But don't worry, I sleep well, especially now I can send all the legal claims to you!

^ But then we would loose track of where we are in the song... I don't mind putting up the lyrics in the OP, but as I said somewhere above, I won't necessarily be very "up to date" in striking out lines (and I'm also very lazy... Long live Laziness!). But experiment with it, I would say, to see how/if it works.

(If/when we're all using a different method, it will tend a bit to Anarchy... Love that )

You're launching Hallelujah?

Reenter your original post in EDIT mode.

Highlight the lines you want to strike out.

Hit the letter strike out tab.

Done. Post reply.

Well, we've danced off into the Moonlit Knight and tipped a pint with the fat old lady outside the saloon.

What band deserves our pooled talent as song (re)writers next?

How about ELP's Lucky Man?

Not too wordy but with lots of opportunity.

Other suggestions?

Sorry about this inconvenience.

Seriously?? I thought this had been thoroughly discussed and agreed that ensuring the proper credits were shown at the bottom of the lyrics would more than cover any concerns, not to mention the 'Fair Use' statutes that the law allows for.

Not to belabour this too much, but a copyrighted (whatever) can be utilized for comedic or satirical purposes without penalty. And really, that's what is been done here.

If we are going to be forbidden from posting them, even with the proper credits...for my part I think I'll be done with the thread.

Nothing personal...but I find it excessive overreach, unless it can be demonstrated that there has been direct legal action as a result of our fun. I'll also reiterate my previous offer. Anyone sends any kind of threat or concern, send them my way. I'm more than happy to explain (politely) the law in this regard.

Well, I may have a proposition... I don't think it is that problematic what we're doing here, although strictly speaking we're reproducing copyrighted content (but the same is valid for all those embedded videos on the PA forums - I guess we don't want to change those habits either...). And we're not pursuing profit either from these exercises...

What we can do in order to not spoil the fun is just delete the original lyrics in the OP of each rewriting # after the rewriting is done. This means that the original lyrics would be up here for one, at the most two weeks - no time to show up in the search results of internet and when a hypothetical letter of a copyright lawyer falls on the doormat, the lyrics will already have been deleted.

Be aware that we are more zealous regarding copyright if we're going to do this than all other forum users (myself included) who are embedding videos here...

I'm open to your ideas on this because I don't want to spoil the fun, but I don't want to be opened up to problems either.  

So here's the thing...this is an international website, probably stationed on servers in the USA. I'm posting from Canada. What laws apply? I'm honestly trying to understand the concern but there just isn't any THERE THERE.

Here are my investigative questions.

1 - Has there EVER in the history of the PA site been an example of legal threats for copyright infringement made against it?

2 - If so, what was the context and remedy?

3 - Certainly the OWNER(s) of the site have the final say in what's done on their platform (witness Twitter bans).

4 - Is there a 'RULES OF ENGAGEMENT' page for PA that even talks about copyrights

5 - Don't we really have bigger things to worry about like trolls voting prematurely in the Interactive Polls?

Not sure what you mean by REASONING?

Why does a question need a reason, the reason is...I don't know the answer.

You might also want to mention...

The First Prog Lyric Part That Pops Into Your Mind

The Counting Thread

The Cover Chain game!!

Anytime someone quote someone else in a post

Just to name a few more examples that also fall within the whole copyright discussion.

Legally speaking it is all quite simple (and not that different in Europe, the USA or Canada...): The reproduction of copyrighted content should be done with the permission of the copyright holders, otherwise it could be considered a copyright infringement.

I doubt that all the embedded videos, reproduced lyrics, photos, album covers, etc. etc. here on PA (site and forum) have that permission...

Now, what to do about that? Nothing, in my opinion. But that is actually a question the site owner(s) should answer and act eventually accordingly. We are in what I call the "grey zone" or the "tolerance zone" for which much lobbying is going on to regulate it better ("Fair use" is an example of that). For the moment it mostly relies on the tolerance of copyright holders if they allow things to be used in a way that is not competing with their own exploitation of their work.

What we are doing here on the PA forums has no commercial intent when we embed a video, reproduce a lyric, etc. so the worst thing that could happen, I think, is that the site owner receives a nice letter from a lawyer that will ask that this or that work should be removed from the site, "or else"... We remove it and that's it. Or we make it a case and defend our "fair use" of that material and a judge might agree with us, or not... That would be a strategy if the site owner likes to go to tribunals. I guess he doesn't, so the most simple thing to do is remove the content in question and go on with our everyday PA life.

Of course, it is good that PA reminds its users now and then that they use copyrighted material and should not make abuse of it (e.g. embed a whole album, all the lyrics of a band, etc.), but let's continue the way we are doing things here and when there's a letter from a lawyer, we act accordingly. That's all.

^ It's fine with me (as I said http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=126135&PID=5891801#5891801" rel="nofollow - earlier : "unless/until admins tell us to act differently."), but I think it is a bit double standard regarding allowing video embeds but not lyrics... (which is of course not at all a plea to stop these too!).

Yesterday I already deleted the lyrics I posted in the threads I started and hope that everyone who has posted original lyrics before will do the same. We can link to an existing lyrics page instead at the start of each new #, so we continue to have the same reference without being bad boys (and girls?)...

Also, here is an article I found that will answer a lot of questions about the concerns of posting/sharing lyrics online.   https://www.thefader.com/2019/06/26/who-owns-lyrics-explainer" rel="nofollow - Here’s what you need to know about sharing lyrics online | The FADER

As far as the embedding of videos, I will look into that, but since it is linked to YouTube, I'm not sure if it's a problem.  I will see what I can find out.

Apparently, at least in Europe, embedding is not a copyright infringement. See https://edri.org/our-work/cjeu-embedding-copyright-infringement/" rel="nofollow - here :

“The embedding in a website of a protected work which is publicly accessible on another website by means of a link using the framing technology … does not by itself constitute communication to the public within the meaning of [the EU Copyright directive] to the extent that the relevant work is neither communicated to a new public nor by using a specific technical means different from that used for the original communication."

And https://klarislaw.com/wp-content/uploads/klarislaw-copyright-liability-for-linking-and-embedding.pdf" rel="nofollow - here a 22 page pdf that compares the EU legislation with those in the US of A (I haven't read it yet...).

So, we can be relieved regarding the embedded videos...!

Quoting from that document:  Hyperlinks have been described as the “digital equivalent of giving the recipient driving directions to another website on the Internet”. [footnote removed, see article] The hyperlink itself does not contain the copyrighted or protected derivative work. [footnote removed, see article]

Kate has reached her http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127040" rel="nofollow - heights although some input was deerly missing (come back JD, come back! ).

Someone volunteering for #26?

Sorry for bowing out on the KB. I was throwing a tantrum about not posting the lyrics. I will most likely avoid any that don't include the lyrics in the OP going forward.

Plus, this morning I got hired on as the Project Manager for a green field plant build and they have to be out of their current location by Jan 2023. I have no idea how I'm going to pull that off given that they still haven't closed on the purchase of the new build site and there are huge delays in getting building materials right now, especially little things like steel for roofing.

I may be jumping in and out from time to time and will try and contribute.

I feel the love.

Thanks.

^ Remember, the first dozen or so were done without the lyrics in the OP... I admit, it is more convenient with them, but a link does the job for me... It won't avoid some glitches from time to time, but that's part of the charm, I think.

Good to hear you have a big project at hand, if still not entirely solid... Something precious these times when one is working on project base (like I do, outside of my teaching things).

Anyway, jump in when you can/want!

Heart of the Matter wrote: What about The Sphinx In The Face, by Van Der Graaf? It's got a rhythm and a rhyming that stick with you from the beginning, and yet it's a reasonably good song.

Like both ideas. I think the "tacky" songs have resonance with more PA members. The classic rock/pop hits seem to work well regarding participation (so, does this mean that we all here at PA are actually preferring the tacky/poppy music and that our love for prog is just an "attitude"? )

But I think it is OK to alternate them with the more proggy songs, although I think a certain "popularity" or "accessibility" helps to get more participation... The more difficult prog songs wear out on participation on the long run (as we've seen with Pirates), but well... we sometimes have to take up a challenge...

All this, to say actually... nothing...

^ Ah, that's funny... I never looked at it from that perspective... I mean, I never had the idea that we were denigrating the original songs - I think they've proven their outstanding and everlasting qualities, so we will not be able to denigrate them. We're not making fun of them, but making fun with them, imo. Otherwise I would not have started all this.

With the first one, Hotel California, it was never my intention to denigrate that song, I love it - it's an all time classic for me. And I love all those original songs that we have "rewritten", so far. But I don't mind at all turning them into a joke, they can have it and it won't alter my admiration for those songs (even the Phil Collins one!).

Not denigrate...sillyfy ! (a word of my own making)

Building on some of the previous comments I believe the lyrics should be somewhat easily transferred into other words. So, take a line or two and think to yourself, how easily and humourously can this lyric be modified. Maybe this game should now have a poll added to decide which song to massacre next.

My vote goes to Men At Work - Down Under

But you have to post the lyric.

Just to clarify, if the lyric is posted, you can only post a few lines at a time.  Once each section is used, the OP will have to remove them and replace them with the next few lines.  You can also post the link if the people changing the lyrics get ahead of the lines that are posted.  Posting a few lines at a time is okay, but we can't post the entire set of lyrics.  Or, you can just post the link at the top of the thread as Kees did in the last one.

Further copyright violations will result in disciplinary action and thread locked. 

Thank you to those who have followed the policy and removed previously posted lyrics. Your help is appreciated. 

You little child!