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Machinemessiah View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 25 2020 at 12:09
Originally posted by ForestFriend ForestFriend wrote:

Gentle Giant were the kings of short - but dense - prog. None of their studio albums were over 40 minutes, and I don't think they even made a song longer than 10 minutes (not counting live stuff).

I have a fairly short attention span, so I find it tough to get into an album that's close to an hour or longer. Although I don't have the attitude that every album must be listened in full every time, so often I have better luck listening to individual tracks than the whole thing.
 
Yeah! it made me remember when I got my hands on Octopus on CD a long time ago (the stereo showed clearly the total play time Approve).. it was a birthday present from two of a us proggy friends to a third one.

Summing up now it seems 34:05 I think.. 




Edited by Machinemessiah - February 26 2020 at 05:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2020 at 01:26
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

"Rubycon" by Tangerine Dream.
 

Stratosfear is just a tad shorter (time lengths on previous page).


I don't know why but that's one of the few TD albums I really need to have another go at. I don't know, it just seemed to pass me by.
 

Stratosfear is one of their MASTERWORKS.

The title track is, hands down, one of the best things they've ever done. Clap
 

yes definitely. I first heard it on the Dream Sequence compilation ( The first thing I ever bought by TD) and very slightly edited . That was when a structured approach started to become more apparent I think.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Braka1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 23:01
This has probably been said somewhere above, but I think rock albums - and perhaps especially prog  - benifited from the constraints of the LP era.  Rock grew up with a typical 40 minute album 'limit', and I think that's part of its DNA (yes, artists like Klaus Schulze squeezed 30 minutes a side onto vinyl, but the sound quality starts to drop noticeably if you do that with something with a lot of dynamic range)

Quite apart from those physical considerations, an LP has four pivotal tracks: the first and last tracks on side A and B. I'd dare to say all great rock albums were sequenced with this dynamic in mind. The coming of the CD means we lost two of those pivot points, and with streaming we pretty much lost all of them.

I have to admit I don't really miss changing LP sides, nor do I miss the slow deterioration of vinyl, but I do believe old LPs on CD often suffer from the absence of that dramatic structure; probably more so if you don't remember the original vinyl sequence.

And for sure, too many artists suffered a drop in quality when they transitioned to trying to 'fill up' a CD with material. I'm also of the opinion that 70-80 minutes is often just too long to maintain peak level of concentration for many styles of rock, without some sort of fatigue setting in.  This may be less true for prog than many other forms. 'Tales From Topographic Oceans' is arguably an album that would like to have had access to a CD running length - though, again, the framing device of 4 side-long songs on a double LP  of vinyl is essentially the same pattern as a more conventional album with the four structural points I mentioned before. Quite possibly it BECAME a work of four movements because of the constraints of vinyl, and had it come out with no need to impose a structure of that sort, it would probably have been a completely different work.

YMMV. Maybe this is just because the vinyl  album structure is what I grew up on, and it feels instinctively right. But when I hear 'Dark Side' on CD, I always mentally register that 'Money' is the start of side two.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 15:14
Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

"Rubycon" by Tangerine Dream.
 

Stratosfear is just a tad shorter (time lengths on previous page).


I don't know why but that's one of the few TD albums I really need to have another go at. I don't know, it just seemed to pass me by.
 

Stratosfear is one of their MASTERWORKS.

The title track is, hands down, one of the best things they've ever done. Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 14:28
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Whenever a poster castigates a song with adjectives "noodling" or "rambling". They surely realise that, most of us, as prog fans, welcome and embrace most noodling and rambling as essential for the genre....short is for commercial pop....let us celebrate the need for length....extension is good...
 
I only used the word "noodling" once in an album review. Never again. Although I didn't mean it disrespectfully. I just prefer "keyboard wizardry" or some such similar term of praise to voice my approval. Smile


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - February 20 2020 at 14:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 13:20
Whenever a poster castigates a song with adjectives "noodling" or "rambling". They surely realise that, most of us, as prog fans, welcome and embrace most noodling and rambling as essential for the genre....short is for commercial pop....let us celebrate the need for length....extension is good...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LAM-SGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 13:08
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

"Rubycon" by Tangerine Dream.
 

Stratosfear is just a tad shorter (time lengths on previous page).


I don't know why but that's one of the few TD albums I really need to have another go at. I don't know, it just seemed to pass me by.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 11:34
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

"Rubycon" by Tangerine Dream.
 

Stratosfear is just a tad shorter (time lengths on previous page).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LAM-SGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 09:44
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Battle of Epping forest fits the concept perfectly. A triumph of lyrical comedic social comment. But non brits tend not to get the zeitgeist...


Oh, we non-Brits "get it". We got it in the first couple minutes of the song. Unfortunately, a 4-5 minute song that drags on with errant rambling and noodling for nearly 12 minutes wrecks the pacing of what otherwise is a brilliant album. One of the few songs of that era of Genesis that bores me to tears.
 

 
Well I like it.
 

Actually, it's a self-proclaimed pure brit (LAM-SGC) that seems to have the most problems with it.

personally I think every minute of the epic opera is great.  


Pure-Brit? Hardly, I'm actually Irish :) And I live in Sweden. London was my inbetween spot, from age 5 to 34, moved to Sweden in 1996. I'm only a pure-Brit in music taste...perhaps.   

Edited by LAM-SGC - February 20 2020 at 10:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 09:26
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Battle of Epping forest fits the concept perfectly. A triumph of lyrical comedic social comment. But non brits tend not to get the zeitgeist...

Oh, we non-Brits "get it". We got it in the first couple minutes of the song. Unfortunately, a 4-5 minute song that drags on with errant rambling and noodling for nearly 12 minutes wrecks the pacing of what otherwise is a brilliant album. One of the few songs of that era of Genesis that bores me to tears.
 
 
Well I like it.
 

Actually, it's a self-proclaimed pure brit (LAM-SGC) that seems to have the most problems with it.

personally I think every minute of the epic opera is great.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grubert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 06:47
Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Originally posted by Grubert Grubert wrote:



Vrooom is one of my favourite Crimson albums, Thrak not.
So I made, yes, yes, yes, my own album, by adding some of the Thrak stuff to Vrooom, and in that version it is the best Crimson album ever, better than In the court, better than Red, better than Discipline.


.
Steady on sir, better than Red? I must hear your version.


Well, it is, of course, like everything else, all subjective ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LAM-SGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 03:23
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

"Rubycon" by Tangerine Dream.


My absolute favourite, with Phaedra at No. 2 and at No. 3, you might be surprised, Tyger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldFriede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 03:10
"Rubycon" by Tangerine Dream.


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LAM-SGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 02:42
Originally posted by Grubert Grubert wrote:

King Crimson returned in 1994 with a short album called Vrooom (about 31 min), and it was a fantastic album, but it was only an appetizer for the real album, which then was released half a year later as Thrak. Thrak ran for 56 min, and even if there were 2 more great songs on it, Thrak frayed out, cause it also contained several lesser songs and pieces. In the end Thrak did not have that wonderful concentrated flow of Vrooom.

Vrooom is one of my favourite Crimson albums, Thrak not.
So I made, yes, yes, yes, my own album, by adding some of the Thrak stuff to Vrooom, and in that version it is the best Crimson album ever, better than In the court, better than Red, better than Discipline.

But on the other hand there are of course also albums which would have benefited from one more good track, which are missing something. Procol Harum's first album is better with the 2 single-only tracks A Whiter Shade of Pale and Homburg added (my first CD had them as part of the album) and Sergeant Pepper's suffers from omitting Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane.

And actually I don't think anyway that shorter albums are generally better than longer albums.

.
Steady on sir, better than Red? I must hear your version.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grubert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 02:17
King Crimson returned in 1994 with a short album called Vrooom (about 31 min), and it was a fantastic album, but it was only an appetizer for the real album, which then was released half a year later as Thrak. Thrak ran for 56 min, and even if there were 2 more great songs on it, Thrak frayed out, cause it also contained several lesser songs and pieces. In the end Thrak did not have that wonderful concentrated flow of Vrooom.

Vrooom is one of my favourite Crimson albums, Thrak not.
So I made, yes, yes, yes, my own album, by adding some of the Thrak stuff to Vrooom, and in that version it is the best Crimson album ever, better than In the court, better than Red, better than Discipline.

But on the other hand there are of course also albums which would have benefited from one more good track, which are missing something. Procol Harum's first album is better with the 2 single-only tracks A Whiter Shade of Pale and Homburg added (my first CD had them as part of the album) and Sergeant Pepper's suffers from omitting Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane.

And actually I don't think anyway that shorter albums are generally better than longer albums.


Edited by Grubert - February 20 2020 at 02:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LAM-SGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2020 at 01:43
My favourite Neil Young album Zuma is only 36 minutes, before it Tonight's the Night was 45 minutes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2020 at 12:55
For me, in most cases, I find it good that there were limitations to the length of an album, and that bands didn't have the urge to fill up more and more time just for the sake of doing so. Though there are indeed cases of wonderful longer albums nowdays, and perhaps bands could have done some great stuff back then without limitations (I can think of Shine On you Crazy Diamond from Pink Floyd, which they had to divide because it didn't fit in one side of a vinyl... or perhaps they might even have included "You gotta be Crazy" and "Raving and Drooling" on wish you were here if the CD format existed back then, instead of leaving them for the next album). And then, there's Dream Theater, whom are among my favourite bands, but I find it hard to choose a really great album from them, because they always have songs that don't satisfy me... however, if I leave out the weaker songs (talking about albums still with Portnoy), I find that it could still have been a whole album from the 70's for it's length. Still, if they had limited themselves to such times, who knows if they would have chosen the songs that I chose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2020 at 12:38
Benny the bouncer, rock opera , without the bar-room piano n chas & dave vocals would have improved on the bss release by at least one magnitude, maybe two...

Edited by M27Barney - February 19 2020 at 12:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2020 at 12:30
Most albums in the 1970 were between 35 and 45 minutes. Genesis passed the 50 minute-mark a few times and Klaus Schulze crossed the 55-minute border a few times.

The most iconic short album (< 35 minutes) I can think of is Traffic - John Barleycorn Must Die (34:33)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2020 at 12:25
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Battle of Epping forest fits the concept perfectly. A triumph of lyrical comedic social comment. But non brits tend not to get the zeitgeist...


Oh, we non-Brits "get it". We got it in the first couple minutes of the song. Unfortunately, a 4-5 minute song that drags on with errant rambling and noodling for nearly 12 minutes wrecks the pacing of what otherwise is a brilliant album. One of the few songs of that era of Genesis that bores me to tears.

To this day, I thank Emerson, Lake and Palmer for limiting "Benny the Bouncer" to 2:21. 

I think the comparison of the chas N Dave Emerson track with a Genesis masterclass of prog rock punditry is the height of ignorance....Gabriel penned lyrics which are delivered in an assortment of character voices are part of a track which extends on the social commentary of "Harold the Barrel" another example to ELP of what a track of that type should sound like...it's a great track. Anybody who rates more fool me as better than it should stick to boy bands and stay away from symphonic prog...

No the height of ignorance would be if ELP elongated Benny the Bouncer into a 12 minute dialogue with bad accents for several of Benny's nefarious associates, throw about an even longer list of lowbrow slang than the song is already chock-full of to prove the band's hipness, and then refer to the resultant noodling drivel as a "masterclass of prog rock punditry". LOL
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