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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

A prog website(such as progressive ears) with users that doesn't use this website won't have the ratings on here as a reference on here so they obviously would not agree with the criterion you guys are using. But in my admittedly stubborn opinion these are the bands that should be on there: TFK,SB, OT, PT, IQ and Marillion. For me prog metal would be a separate list. If Opeth do a few more less metal and more prog rockish albums they could easily go on the list too. BBT and Pendragon should also be considered contenders. I won't deny the importance of the bands on the above lists and you guys are doing it very methodical so your lists are probably more definitive but hey we all have our own opinions.  Oh yeah, I forgot Anglagard. They are definitely a contender. It's too bad it can only be six bands. I like Djam Karet too but they are probably even more forgotten than Ozric Tentacles. Tongue

Don't you think such a list should represent the variety of prog genres? One can do separate lists for all kinds of stuff, but a "big six" from my point of view would make more sense if it'd represent a wider spectrum including let's say prog metal and the like, math/post rock, and what went on in RIO from 1980. Do we have bands that started post 1979 that cover remotely as much ground as the very eclectic King Crimson or Jethro Tull, say? If not, it surely shouldn't all be Neo or Symphonic...

I was going to point out the same thing, if the genre was limited to bands like TFK, SB, IQ, Marillion, PT I would be extremely bored very quickly but that's my personal tastes for ya.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

A prog website(such as progressive ears) with users that doesn't use this website won't have the ratings on here as a reference on here so they obviously would not agree with the criterion you guys are using. But in my admittedly stubborn opinion these are the bands that should be on there: TFK,SB, OT, PT, IQ and Marillion. For me prog metal would be a separate list. If Opeth do a few more less metal and more prog rockish albums they could easily go on the list too. BBT and Pendragon should also be considered contenders. I won't deny the importance of the bands on the above lists and you guys are doing it very methodical so your lists are probably more definitive but hey we all have our own opinions.  Oh yeah, I forgot Anglagard. They are definitely a contender. It's too bad it can only be six bands. I like Djam Karet too but they are probably even more forgotten than Ozric Tentacles. Tongue

Don't you think such a list should represent the variety of prog genres? One can do separate lists for all kinds of stuff, but a "big six" from my point of view would make more sense if it'd represent a wider spectrum including let's say prog metal and the like, math/post rock, and what went on in RIO from 1980. Do we have bands that started post 1979 that cover remotely as much ground as the very eclectic King Crimson or Jethro Tull, say? If not, it surely shouldn't all be Neo or Symphonic...

Not necessarily. The big six list represents who is the most popular and influential(but mostly most well known)and as such the most well known is primarily from the symph prog genre. Yes, Genesis, ELP, PF, etc. There's no zeuhl, rpi, avant, rio, etc in there. The same thing with most of the second tier lists on here. If we tried to be more diverse then you would have lesser known bands which is all well and good but isn't fair to the bands who have had more impact so it's like you are deliberately spreading things out just to be fair. That list would be something like: Genesis, Henry Cow, Hawkwind, Le Orme, Uriah Heep, Soft Machine, etc. That would be all well and good but then it would leave out some very important(actually some of the most important bands). So, in my opinion it's best to have separate lists for each subgenres if we want to accentuate diversity within the prog rock genre.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - December 05 2019 at 08:11
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

A prog website(such as progressive ears) with users that doesn't use this website won't have the ratings on here as a reference on here so they obviously would not agree with the criterion you guys are using. But in my admittedly stubborn opinion these are the bands that should be on there: TFK,SB, OT, PT, IQ and Marillion. For me prog metal would be a separate list. If Opeth do a few more less metal and more prog rockish albums they could easily go on the list too. BBT and Pendragon should also be considered contenders. I won't deny the importance of the bands on the above lists and you guys are doing it very methodical so your lists are probably more definitive but hey we all have our own opinions.  Oh yeah, I forgot Anglagard. They are definitely a contender. It's too bad it can only be six bands. I like Djam Karet too but they are probably even more forgotten than Ozric Tentacles. Tongue

Don't you think such a list should represent the variety of prog genres? One can do separate lists for all kinds of stuff, but a "big six" from my point of view would make more sense if it'd represent a wider spectrum including let's say prog metal and the like, math/post rock, and what went on in RIO from 1980. Do we have bands that started post 1979 that cover remotely as much ground as the very eclectic King Crimson or Jethro Tull, say? If not, it surely shouldn't all be Neo or Symphonic...

Not necessarily. The big six list represents who is the most popular and influential(but mostly most well known)and as such the most well known is primarily from the symph prog genre. Yes, Genesis, ELP, PF, etc. There's no zeuhl, rpi, avant, rio, etc in there. The same thing with most of the second tier lists on here. If we tried to be more diverse then you would have lesser known bands which is all well and good but isn't fair to the bands who have had more impact so it's like you are deliberately spreading things out just to be fair. That list would be something like: Genesis, Henry Cow, Hawkwind, Le Orme, Uriah Heep, Soft Machine, etc. That would be all well and good but then it would leave out some very important(actually some of the most important bands). So, in my opinion it's best to have separate lists for each subgenres if we want to accentuate diversity within the prog rock genre.

Obviously six bands can't represent everything, and obviously a compromise has to be struck between innovation and influence, popularity, and covering a wide range. I wouldn't agree with "mostly most well known" - no band should be "big 6" that is purely derivative, no matter how much they sell and what probablity "the person in the street" has knowing them. The first "big 6" are a bit too Symph oriented maybe but PF have done psychedelic, Yes, Genesis and ELP have done Crossover, KC and JT really have done lots of things. Overall much is covered even without the likes of Henry Cow and Le Orme. 
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^Well, if they can't be even a little bit derivative then I guess IQ and Marillion shouldn't be on any of these lists then. You may as well not even do a post 1980 list because most bands after the seventies are derivative to some degree.
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Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I agree with your top 3 and would argue you can't leave out Opeth given their 5 top 100 albums and 7 albums with more than 1000 ratings.  5th and 6th would be up for grabs for me.

<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; -: initial; -: initial; -size: initial; -repeat: initial; -attachment: initial; -origin: initial; -clip: initial;">From glancing at the responses, it seems like Marillion, Dream Theater, and Porcupine Tree are near consensus for 3 of the 6 spots. </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><o:p></o:p></span>

<p ="Msonormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Opeth nearly made my big six. I would have no problem due to their popularity, ratings, and influence. </span>



I guess Opeth would be in a case like Gentle Giant or Camel nowdays. Both of them seem to receive more love than ELP, but neither are within the wide consensus of the big 6. Right now I believe Opeth would receive more love than Dream Theater.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

A prog website(such as progressive ears) with users that doesn't use this website won't have the ratings on here as a reference on here so they obviously would not agree with the criterion you guys are using. But in my admittedly stubborn opinion these are the bands that should be on there: TFK,SB, OT, PT, IQ and Marillion. For me prog metal would be a separate list. If Opeth do a few more less metal and more prog rockish albums they could easily go on the list too. BBT and Pendragon should also be considered contenders. I won't deny the importance of the bands on the above lists and you guys are doing it very methodical so your lists are probably more definitive but hey we all have our own opinions.  Oh yeah, I forgot Anglagard. They are definitely a contender. It's too bad it can only be six bands. I like Djam Karet too but they are probably even more forgotten than Ozric Tentacles. Tongue


For a prog metal big list, my take would be Dream Theater, Opeth, Pain of Salvation, Ayreon and Riverside, thinking mostly of the 2000's, when the genre was at it's greatest maturity and popularity. Perhaps Tool would have to be in there, but more because of their popularity outside of prog than inside. And perhaps The Mars Volta too (if they could be called prog metal). Symphony X I guess would rather be on the 2nd tier. And I personally would like to add Devin Townsend, but I'm not sure it would be right.
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Opeth is most definitely in the Big Six after the Golden Era. They have done so much recently to spread the Gospel of Prog.
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Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:



For a prog metal big list, my take would be Dream Theater, Opeth, Pain of Salvation, Ayreon and Riverside, thinking mostly of the 2000's, when the genre was at it's greatest maturity and popularity. Perhaps Tool would have to be in there, but more because of their popularity outside of prog than inside. And perhaps The Mars Volta too (if they could be called prog metal). Symphony X I guess would rather be on the 2nd tier. And I personally would like to add Devin Townsend, but I'm not sure it would be right.


no way is Symphony X second tier when everyone knows who they are in the metal community, and they're well respected.
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:



For a prog metal big list, my take would be Dream Theater, Opeth, Pain of Salvation, Ayreon and Riverside, thinking mostly of the 2000's, when the genre was at it's greatest maturity and popularity. Perhaps Tool would have to be in there, but more because of their popularity outside of prog than inside. And perhaps The Mars Volta too (if they could be called prog metal). Symphony X I guess would rather be on the 2nd tier. And I personally would like to add Devin Townsend, but I'm not sure it would be right.


no way is Symphony X second tier when everyone knows who they are in the metal community, and they're well respected.


Perhaps I'm biased because what I got to hear from Symphony X left me underwhelmed and disappointed, but my impression is that Symphony X, while perhaps not really trying to be a Dream Theater copy, at least have stood in their shadow, while the other bands I mentioned seem to me like they were able to step out of it. I guess I also missed Queensryche and Fates Warning as candidates for first or second prog metal tier.
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^Symphony X are definitely not first tier prog metal. Fates Warning aren't even first tier. First tier would be Tool, Dream Theater, Opeth and Queensryche. But if symphony X were first tier then we would have to list a bunch of other bands too. 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - December 06 2019 at 13:56
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

^Symphony X are definitely not first tier prog metal. Fates Warning aren't even first tier. First tier would be Tool, Dream Theater, Opeth and Queensryche. But if symphony X were first tier then we would have to list a bunch of other bands too. 


As far as popularity is concerned, DT, Opeth and Tool are more popular than Symphony X. SX are also important as they have influnced many other bands (Adagio, Artension, Pagan's Mind, Kamelot to name a few).

I've been listening to progressive metal since the 90s and an important band was Shadow Gallery. But with their vocalist passing and releasing one more album (10 years ago), they became a cult band these days.

Pain of Salvation blew everyone's mind, mine included late 90s. I wish they were more known. They are influential, too.

Queensryche were great and important for a while, but after 1994, they were average, even mediocre at some point, to godawful (Dedicated to Chaos). They were lucky to start over with Todd and they are doing well now.

As for Fates Warning, they should have been huge, they were influential (even DT admited to that).
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

^Symphony X are definitely not first tier prog metal. Fates Warning aren't even first tier. First tier would be Tool, Dream Theater, Opeth and Queensryche. But if symphony X were first tier then we would have to list a bunch of other bands too. 


As far as popularity is concerned, DT, Opeth and Tool are more popular than Symphony X. SX are also important as they have influnced many other bands (Adagio, Artension, Pagan's Mind, Kamelot to name a few).

I've been listening to progressive metal since the 90s and an important band was Shadow Gallery. But with their vocalist passing and releasing one more album (10 years ago), they became a cult band these days.

Pain of Salvation blew everyone's mind, mine included late 90s. I wish they were more known. They are influential, too.

Queensryche were great and important for a while, but after 1994, they were average, even mediocre at some point, to godawful (Dedicated to Chaos). They were lucky to start over with Todd and they are doing well now.

As for Fates Warning, they should have been huge, they were influential (even DT admited to that).

Yeah, I was going to mention Shadow Gallery. I also meant to mention Voivoid. Crimson Glory, Watchtower and Savatage should be mentioned as important early prog metal bands too. 

Yeah, Queensryche were important then dropped off but I was going more by over all album sales which ultimately doesn't really mean a lot. As far as influential what about Rainbow and Ygwie Malmsteen? Would there be neoclassical without them? Maybe not Rainbow though although they were important in the development of prog metal I suppose.




Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - December 06 2019 at 17:21
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Porcupine Tree
Opeth
Riverside
Phideaux
Anekdoten 
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

If we look at how many top 100 albums bands have had and how many ratings bands have for top 100 albums we get

Top 100 Albums (2nd sort by # of rankings)
Porcupine Tree / S Wilson - 5
Opeth - 5
Marillion - 3
Riverside - 3
Cardiacs - 3

Dream Theater - 2
Rush - 2
Anglagard - 2
Pain Of Salvation - 2
Phideaux - 2

Top 100 album rankings
Porcupine Tree / S Wilson - 10183
Opeth - 6199
Dream Theater - 5737
Marillion - 5368
Rush - 4762

Riverside - 4110
Anglagard - 2738
Pain Of Salvation - 2362
Phideaux - 1788
Big Big Train - 1751

This seems to pretty much sum it up! Any further arguments out there?
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Originally posted by Olape Olape wrote:

Porcupine Tree
Opeth
Riverside
Phideaux
Anekdoten 
Beardfish

That's a good list if you are deliberately jumping over the 80's and 90's(with the exception of Anekdoten and maybe Opeth who were around back then). With the exception of Porcupine Tree none of those bands are more important than Marillion, IQ, Anglagard, The Flower Kings or Spock's Beard especially from a historical perspective but Opeth certainly rivals PT these days in terms of influence and popularity. 
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If you go by Rate Your Music's top ratings it would seem more like this:

The Mars Volta
Rush
Tool
Porcupine Tree
Opeth

and i can't argue with that
other worthy candidates though

Dream Theater
Anglagard
Univers Zero
Cardiacs

i didn't read through all of the above so not sure if anyone has mentioned it this way

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I've heard people say TMV aren't really prog though. As for Rush we can't include them because they had albums in the seventies. You would have to also include Kansas, Yes, Genesis, etc(if they were rated as high and I know Yes's close to the edge is one of the highest rated prog albums on rym).

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 02 2020 at 23:36
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If it says "big six", I'm thinking a bit popular, known and also influential.

Marillion/IQ
Anglagard/Spock's Beard/TFK
Dream Theater
Tool
Porcupine Tree
GY!BE/Sigur Ros/Explosions in the Sky
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I've heard people say TMV aren't really prog though.
I've also heard people say The Mars Volta aren't really Neo-Prog when I've included them in my Neo-Prog polls. Wink


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - February 03 2020 at 02:05
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I've heard people say TMV aren't really prog though.
I've also heard people say The Mars Volta aren't really Neo-Prog when I've included them in my Neo-Prog polls. Wink


@AFlowerKingCrimson - who says TMV are not progressive? Anyway, the two other classification for them are experimetal rock (does them justice I think) and post-hardcore (don't know much about this genre).

@Psychedelic Paul - you're still trolling with TMV being neo-prog? Aren't you bored yet? Everyone else is. Just check how many people disagreed in your neo-prog threads. 
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