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Frenetic Zetetic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 02:33
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

I feel like everyone is just now throwing out bands they can argue/expand the definition of "progressive rock" with, simply for a reason to have more content on the site to debate over, lol.

I disagree vehemently on Grateful Dead being on PA or considered progressive in any fashion. That is the definition of a blind squirrel finding a nut (in band form) to me. Almost like everyone wants to blend Psych, Proto, etc. together and start blending the "grey" areas versus being so black and white (both have their faults IMHO).

I.E. "Having your PA cake and eating it too".

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

It's that old discussion..again. What is and isn't 'real prog rock'.
And it will go one for another 7.5 years or 75 depending on the life of the forum.
;)

Exactly. We'll still be here in 7.5 years though, I have a theory LOL.

I'll probably be dead by then.... LOL....I just turned 68.....
I do agree that the Dead... while a great and interesting band.... is not prog rock....adding them would open the door to all the ones named above , so then why dot simply make this a  rock web site and forget the prog rock pretensions and categories. I mean The Beatles are here...The Who...Led Zep, etc, etc...bands I have never considered true prog rock....nor even prog related for that matter. So why not add XTC, The Dead, etc..? At this point does it matter?

Dr. Wu gets it. Where do we draw the line? I feel like once we start debating "what's proto?" we enter a slippery slope, and next thing you know we're AllMusic.com 2.0. If everyone wants to add more just due to boredom, maybe start another site or forum and leave this as it was meant to be? JMHO.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 03:19
I remember the times when everybody could add whatever he/she wanted. Friede and I added High Tide and Nik Turner, for example, without having to ask any committee


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote essexboyinwales Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 03:35
Cellar Darling.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 08:39
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

I feel like everyone is just now throwing out bands they can argue/expand the definition of "progressive rock" with, simply for a reason to have more content on the site to debate over, lol.

I disagree vehemently on Grateful Dead being on PA or considered progressive in any fashion. That is the definition of a blind squirrel finding a nut (in band form) to me. Almost like everyone wants to blend Psych, Proto, etc. together and start blending the "grey" areas versus being so black and white (both have their faults IMHO).

I.E. "Having your PA cake and eating it too".

<span style="line-height: 16.5455px;">
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

It's that old discussion..again. What is and isn't 'real prog rock'.</span><div style="line-height: 16.5455px;">And it will go one for another 7.5 years or 75 depending on the life of the forum.<div style="line-height: 16.5455px;">;)<span style="line-height: 16.5455px;">
</span><div style="line-height: 16.5455px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.5455px;">Exactly. We'll still be here in 7.5 years though, I have a theory LOL.


I'll probably be dead by then.... LOL....I just turned 68.....
I do agree that the Dead... while a great and interesting band.... is not prog rock....adding them would open the door to all the ones named above , so then why dot simply make this a  rock web site and forget the prog rock pretensions and categories. I mean The Beatles are here...The Who...Led Zep, etc, etc...bands I have never considered true prog rock....nor even prog related for that matter. So why not add XTC, The Dead, etc..? At this point does it matter?


Dr. Wu gets it. Where do we draw the line? I feel like once we start debating "what's proto?" we enter a slippery slope, and next thing you know we're AllMusic.com 2.0. If everyone wants to add more just due to boredom, maybe start another site or forum and leave this as it was meant to be? JMHO.



Here's the problem. Back in the day, prog bands were experimenting and there was no definition of prog. They had complete freedom. What we've done over the years is classify and compartmentalize prog so much that we have, to a degree, lost the original spirit of what prog is. Now, if a musician wants to play prog or any music, they know they must become clones of whoever is flavor of the month or pack it in. Playlisters will say "That sounds great, but can you make it sound more like Cake By the Ocean"? I previously mentioned bands that experimented in different ways but because they didn't sound like Rick Wakeman (who is the cat's pajamas), they were cast out of the prog category. Likewise it is difficult to classify the Grateful Dead. We have Frank Zappa here and the Grateful Dead are certainly related in their free form manner. There is no single definition of prog. You think yours is right, but who are you to tell everyone else what's prog and what's not?

By compartmentalizing prog, bands become forced into chasing genre and subgenre pigeonholes, and you can kiss the true spirit of prog goodbye. Then, they lose the freedom to really experiment.

It is ok I think to classify songs by genre but classifying prog bands by genre is, to a degree, like putting handcuffs on them.

Since we are in a world now that just has to do this, I would be careful about wielding your chainsaw when cutting bands out of PA. The scalpel approach is better. As I said, you have to draw the line somewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 08:48
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

...
all lovers of the Alice books will notice some strange mistakes in the lyrics of "White Rabbit". the White Knight is not talking backwards; the White Queen, however, lives somewhat backwards in time - first she starts bandaging her finger, then she starts shouting, then she pricks her finger with a needle while trying to fix her scarf to her dress.

and it is not the Red Queen who shouts "Off with her head" but the Queen of Hearts.

Alice also never eats pills that make her change her size, she eats and drinks other things (cakes, a mushroom, liquid in a bottle that has a sign "drink me" on it), and once the fan of the white rabbit makes her grow while she holds it. but that can be a deliberate mistake used for making a drug reference

The Queen of Hearts IS a red queen, as is the Queen of Diamonds!

I always thought that Grace was intelligent enough and clever enough to turn the lyrics inside out ... since on most psychedelics, the reality would be turned inside out anyway ... and the funny thing is, that I always thought that the song was more of a satire on the "hippie" take on the Alice story and other books ... and it was VERY OBVIOUS (AS YOU JUST SHOWED), that most people had never even bothered to read the books to know the difference, because you/I would have said something ... I just thought, from a literary point of view, that it was hilarious, and intentional ... and it was not just being  sentimental or stupid!

I have always thought that it was one of the best written set of lyrics ever put together .. and the music with it ... even better!
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Jaketejas View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 09:00
Prog to me is a loosely defined idea, and more of an approach to music rather than a ticked box.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 09:01
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

 
...
By compartmentalizing prog, bands become forced into chasing genre and subgenre pigeonholes, and you can kiss the true spirit of prog goodbye. Then, they lose the freedom to really experiment.

It is ok I think to classify songs by genre but classifying prog bands by genre is, to a degree, like putting handcuffs on them.

Since we are in a world now that just has to do this, I would be careful about wielding your chainsaw when cutting bands out of PA. The scalpel approach is better. As I said, you have to draw the line somewhere.

And this has been my point and why I spend so much time on its history and the other arts, to give folks a better idea of the freedoms that helped put so much music together.

My big issue is that some Admins will instead spend their time putting down the arts and the freedom, because it doesn't sell, or was a hit ... and I'm not sure that these younger folks have ANY IDEA what it means to have the freedom to experiment ... and not have to worry about the public (or PA) sentiment ... almost all "fans" here, come back to that top of the pops and cookie cutter bands and music ... and then another kid with a first joint in his mouth goes ... which guitar is the best progressive guitar ... and you already know that ... that discussion needs to be dropped and be closed ... for most of the comments will not be about the music at all, but the favorite player of each person making a post on the thread.

Maybe we ought to place those thread in another section completely away from the real solid discussions ... because this is the part that is hurting PA ... specially when Admins and other folks that know the music and are very well versed in the music, end up making snag remarks simply to detail the content of the thread and its "discussion". In a more serious section, this would not quite be allowed, in order to help make the discussions stronger and move worthy of attention ... right now, it's like ... why would anyone bother quoting PA ... too much crap in between one good line!

We have to stop that, if we want to help detail and improve what we have come to call "progressive music" and take it into the future ... although I'm starting to think that we are just a very lazy generation that would rather hold on to mom's skirts and then suck our thumbs the rest of the way! Or ... in the end, the saddest comment I have ever seen by a well respected person that used to post here ... "it's all pop music, anyway!" ... and I'm not sure that our generation was that vacuous and stupid, just because they smoked some weed, and took a few mushrooms ... in fact, I find that offensive! There is no artistic period that did not have their "drug" in one way or another!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 09:38
Archiving music is a double edged sword. Once you've tagged it as this or that, you've put it in a box. This has advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that there is some organized way of retrieving music and this has great value. But, since we're human, the disadvantage is that we're inevitably going to leave people who deserve to be in the box out of the box, while including people in the box who should be in a different box. The question is how do we improve on this process? Multiple tags and use of degree can help. Bridges among music genre and music artists help. Algorithms on Jango tell me who else might be interested in my song based on related artists that people are listening to. Having artists review and give input could help in some cases. Then, cutting people completely in or out goes away, because the classification system becomes more robust. I picture a nucleus that becomes more diffuse as well as a network of interconnected nodes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 11:55
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

...
all lovers of the Alice books will notice some strange mistakes in the lyrics of "White Rabbit". the White Knight is not talking backwards; the White Queen, however, lives somewhat backwards in time - first she starts bandaging her finger, then she starts shouting, then she pricks her finger with a needle while trying to fix her scarf to her dress.

and it is not the Red Queen who shouts "Off with her head" but the Queen of Hearts.

Alice also never eats pills that make her change her size, she eats and drinks other things (cakes, a mushroom, liquid in a bottle that has a sign "drink me" on it), and once the fan of the white rabbit makes her grow while she holds it. but that can be a deliberate mistake used for making a drug reference

The Queen of Hearts IS a red queen, as is the Queen of Diamonds!

this may be true, but there is the character of the Red Queen in "Through the Looking Glass" and she is a chess piece, not a playing card, so this can only be called a mistake.

the Queen of Hearts:



the Red Queen:




Edited by BaldJean - August 02 2019 at 12:56


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 12:02
I haven't read all seven pages but from day one of my membership here I can't get around the fact that Irmin Schmidt's solo work is not listed.

Otherwise, there are any number of great bands and artists that I could imagine being listed here such as Holger Hiller, Tied and Tickled Trio, Tuxedomoon, Sufjan Stevens etcpp., but then I don't consider myself an expert for categories so I leave it to others to decide what's prog and what isn't - I just listen to great stuff.


Edited by Lewian - August 02 2019 at 12:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 12:09
getting out of the proto and related stuff.. for again..  highly highly subjective..  now you are talking Lewian.  Almost as outragious an omission as Ginger.  Since I can't do anything about Ginger, though I profoundly disagree with that decision, I'll respect it.  But I can make up for it here.

he was rejected.  Schimdt is indeed an oversight....

Write me up a bio.. I'll add him...  I've been retired.. but I'll put my hat back on for you (and him hahah). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 12:36
I voted against Baker because we were not adding people who were much better at current African music than him. For example Fela Kuti, Yssou N Dour, King Sunny Ade, Franco, Ghetto Blaster etc etc.
Why should Baker be added for playing African music over the real deal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 12:47
as I said.. I profoundly disagreed with the decision but have done so with respect and not with a flamethrower as I might have in the old days, nor mentioned you specifically out of respect for you. You see him one way and I another. I respect your knowledge and opinion.. do respect mine. Let's leave it at that.  This is just like politics.. I ain't changing your mind, nor yours mine.

Edited by micky - August 02 2019 at 12:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 12:59
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 13:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 13:39
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I voted against Baker because we were not adding people who were much better at current African music than him. For example Fela Kuti, Yssou N Dour, King Sunny Ade, Franco, Ghetto Blaster etc etc.
Why should Baker be added for playing African music over the real deal.

Fela Kuti +1; however, I’m not sure he was progressive within the context of, say, 1970s African music. Assuming he was, I’d love to see him on PA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 13:42
Fela is the essence of progressive in every sense of the word, but not progressive rock I would imagine.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 13:42
Spyro Gyra and the Yellowjackets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 13:46
Well, I don't know, I think that could open the door to smooth jazz and I don't think that's something this site needs. We have jazz music archives for that. Pure fusion is one thing but too much in that direction and before you know it you'll have Kenny G on here. Wink 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - August 02 2019 at 13:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2019 at 13:53
By band, I tend to agree. By song, their fusion work may fit the bill. So, some jazz rock fusion = yes and some = no. Some go in the tent and some don't. Then, the camel sticks its nose in the tent. Pretty soon it has its head inside the tent. Then it's body. Next thing you know the camel's inside the tent and we're out of the tent.

If Kenny G decided to do fusion, would he be allowed in the tent? That could be a good test. I'm going to email him.

What about William Shatner's album "Seeking Major Tom"?

Edited by Jaketejas - August 02 2019 at 14:08
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