this is of course a personal opinion, but there are a lot of strange omissions in the archives. I know many will disagree; please feel free to add your 5 cents' worth.

psychedelic rock is arguably one of the roots of progressive rock, so I would expect to have the foremost bands of that genre in here. Jefferson Airplane can indeed be found, but other important artists are strangely missing. let me list some:

The Grateful Dead. I have seen derogatory comments about The Grateful Dead in here like "they were just a jam band", to which I would say "so what? many short-lived Krautrock bands were nothing else". anyway, just one listen to the amazing "Live/Dead" album from 1969 should be enough to blow that opinion to smithereens.

The 13th Floor Elevators. why the first two albums of this amazing band are not celebrated as forerunners of progressive rock on this site is completely beyond me.

Steppenwolf. one of my absolute favorite bands that started out in the 60s and definitely forerunners of prog rock, with "Born to be Wild" and "The Pusher" being two songs from one of the most famous cult movies ever, "Easy Rider".

Big Brother and the Holding Company. another band that does not get the credit it deserves on this site. featuring one of the most prominent members of the "Club 27" on their first two albums (Janis Joplin) that can rightly be named cornerstones of psychedelic rock.

again, this is just my opinion, but since I am a trained historian I think the omission of some of the historic roots of prog rock is a bit weird

If we're going to psychedelia, it would seem that Country Joe & The Fish should also be an addition....Assuredly one of the most psychedelic of them all....I am in absolute agreement that psych is one of the progenitors of prog, having witnessed it metamorphose in action (and all without LSD on my part  )

My take has been that the whole "progressive" thing is centered on English rock journalists, and since they "created" it, foreign bands can not be selected to the top because it will cause problems ... like England can not be a part of an "Euro...." this or that and has to split, to show its personality and individuality!

I have, for a long time, stood up for a lot of scenes, and the American one is special, but it was hacked to death by the media and the English media let it, and laughed along the way, and ended up making stupid comments about the music, the most visible of them all would probably fall to the GD, but by that time they did not care, and it wasn't about Rolling the Stones, or Melody Masturbate, and just kepot on doing their thing, and when their 2 eponymous albums came out, of course they were not "progressive" ... almost no keyboards, and no loud organ telling you that this is what "progressive" is all about, which kinda tells you right there that the whole thing was not about the music, but about the loudness of the organ player, and how it was added/matched to the band.

JA deserves to be there, almost right from the start, if anything, by their attitude towards a lot of things, specially the business, which ripped them off a lot more than most bands out there ... and no one ever talks about the second level of bands under them ... that had some absolutely lovely material ... and PA will never check out even something like Hot Tuna ... because it ain't progressive and that guitarist is free forming from here to heck and back in the early days!

Big Brother and Janis, is a story that hurts for me ... I liked, loved!, JJ, and she could sing like no one ever has since, and the closest to her strength and power in words in music, is probably Renate ... the one we love to hate, because it's like ... you call that singing? But the strength of the work behind it, makes it spectacular, and their album with "BALL and CHAIN" still stands up as one of the greatest examples of what STEVE HOWE ended up doing ... but not a single "progressive" fan, will even bother listening to that album anyway ... it's not progressive and besides I like my metal!

After that, I think there were a lot of different things in America that should have gotten a lot of attention, but it was not going to happen, because hit radio ruled America until 1970/1971 and by that time, the attention went to the Europeans, and a lot of American bands lost the attraction on the radio hit scene, although FM radio kept many of the bands alive, however, they were all new and different, even if some of them had their roots several years before during the free form days.

Steppenwolf ... I still have their first 2 albums! Enough said. 

Iron Butterfly ... were it not for their famous long song, this band might have been considered "progressive", just for its style, and loud keyboards. However, they had some bad situations within the band, that really hurt their ability to get stronger and better ... but still put out a nice amount of music. Like most American bands, their links were more to rock and blues, with extended pieces, but that's a laugh ... like that did not happen in England!

13th Floor Elevators ... to my shame, I have not heard them!

A few others ... RAM, IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DAY (which played several shows in Europe with PF and many of the "progressive" sound. You can get a taste of it in the film STAMPING GROUND), SANTANA in the early days, was extremely progressive, as their "fusion" was really original and their shows, in the early days, were massively exciting and explosive ... Santana's set in WOODSTOCK, is almost nothing compared to the one in STAMPING GROUND ... 

The Midwest was an incredible ground for more experimental music ... and you can always check out IDES OF MARCH for something very different (they had their hit ... Vehicle), and a far out version of Eleanor Rigby! There were more bands, that bordered that far, the one with the hit Green Eyed Lady (SUGARLOAF) was also a very good album, and quite a bit less known, but a band that kinda tried to sound like CHICAGO, was THE SONS OF CHAMPLIN ... which also had some nice stuff.

For that matter, the Midwest biggest band of all will never be considered "progressive" and their first 5 or 6 albums had some magnificent material that made a lot of "progressive bands" sound and be just another pop band out there! And this is also to say that their 1 and 2 albums are absolutely fantastic, but again, the lack of a loud keyboard sound ... oh my gawd .... horns? ... means this music is sh*t and not progressive!

NY, I am not good enough and versed in it to discuss well enough ... I, personally, do not think that THE VELVET UNDERGROUND is progressive at all ... more like a typical NY'r just doing whatever they wanted at the time and everyone thought it was great ... a veritable Andy Warhol ... you put up a soup can and everyone goes WOW ... and I go ... you must have been seriously stoned, talking about a chair just like Aldous Huxley did in a book! I thought it lacked flavor ... though it had style, and later Lou Reed kinda took care of it on his own ... the album "rock'n'roll animal" is excellent and would fit a "progressive" listing, but will never get it ... a song about heroin? ... nahhhh ... a nothing song about spirituality is more progressive!

Excuse my trimming, but going to chime in agreement on these parts specifically, although an aside that you should check out 13th Floor Elevators.....

I didn't think to check on some of these to see their omissions....

And not sure if you mean all "progressive," fans, but I certainly grew up listening to and still do, Cheap Thrills, and even the first Big Brother LP, prior to that.  And I consider myself a progressive fan, but you may have been referring to the exclusively progressive fans....

And want to add yet another, if we're taking the psych train...Quicksilver Messenger Service.  Their extended homage to "Take Five," "(Acapulco) Gold and Silver," decidedly set the stage for longer pieces and mixing genres in psych and later, prog.

XTC gets the award for favorite band that no one will ever listen to properly ... such a wonderful catalog, that yours truly can not even figure out how to write a book review of the band and Andy Partridge. It's just so far out there and wide ... that trying to bring it down to "progressive" is almost a serious come down, and insult to their music and specially Andy's visions and designs in music, and how he comes up with them, as explained in the book.

I kinda feel like I can not write a review until I listen to at least 2/3's or 3/4's of the material listed (it goes song by song kinda listing!), but too much of it is the early stuff, and I thought the band was way better later than earlier. I'm a great fan of the material from Mummer to Nonesuch, and a lot of folks will tell you that their earlier material is better, and so far, for my ears, it isn't ... maybe more "psychedelic" (so to speak!!!), but not as clear and outstanding, and focused as the material in that middle period.

I am of the opinion that the work they did with Rodd Tungren was not as good as it could have been, considering how well focused and defined their previous album (The Big Express) was, and how it contained outstanding material in it ... and even though there is one or two things in it that seem fine, I thought that Drod Untgren missed the point and the idea of the band, and it is kinda of one that slowed my enjoyment of the band ... I did get one or two more albums and that was it ... but XTC was done for me, and I really thought/wished they had gotten better attention and credit to some of the great work they had.

But XTC is not going to get in or get appreciated because someone decided that "progressive" music must have lout keyboards, and Andy is about the song, not the f**king keyboards! It's about the music, not the f**king sound!

easy..

Ginger f**king Baker solo and Air Force in JR/F  Still even after these years still sort of amazed he was rejected.  And yeah..  let me gain control of this site. He gets f**king added on day 2.. after Neo gets purged the dustbins of Prog Related HELL on the first day haha.

The Grateful Dead were not as headscratching for the whole proto/related thing is a bit open ended.. but though the site never liked the whole.. if x then why not y.. it is and has always been a valid complaint. 

the whole Proto and Related addition process was a complete travesty and IMO handled extremely poorly and not by those that should have been deciding those matters. ie .. they were often political decisions.. not musical ones.

something that is typical for the 13th Floor Elevators is Tommy Hall singing into an electronically modified cuica drum that creates sounds that go like "flibby flibby flibby" all the time. here a picture of a cuica drum:

you play the cuica by grabbing the stick with one hand and moving it up and down

 

The upshot is that there is a lot of wonderful music out there beyond the progosphere.

someone_else wrote: The Velvet Underground can be credited with the invention of Art Rock and therefore should be added to the list of Strange Omissions, on a high ranking.

anyone who can come up with a song like "The Gift" as Velvet Underground did on their 2nd album should be considered progressive. that sad story of poor Waldo is extremely weird and wicked

mickcoxinha wrote: Velvet Underground certainly has the merits, but for the categories they are eligible, they don't need merits, they need to be the fave band of a VIP.

This post is exactly why it was never a good idea to have Proto-Prog, and especially Prog-Related, as categories. Too many unpleasant episodes were triggered by their existence, and even now that the forum is a much more civilized place we need to put up with such unfair allegations.

Surely. More than 50 years after its release it still stands as one of the weirdest stories in the histry of prog.

Start with the Beatles, remove them please thank you!

f**king A man...

part of the dirty laundry ..and there is a lot of it this site has that few know.  I've seen many a band rejected for .. not being liked and god damnit man.. for someone like me who listened to more pure grade sh*t that was called prog that most of you all put together ....and brought it into the database on its merits musically.. rather than the quality of simply if I like it.. 

that really really burned my ass... and probably was one of the main points of conflict.. and there were more than a few.. with that cabal that made those decisions.

If we really need to go that deep we should be stepping toward the influences that came from places other than the rock/pop paradigm. Someone I always thought played a huge role in pushing boundaries is Raymond Scott. From creating a truly progressive sound with his quintet in the 30's and 40's to his electronics research with Bob Moog. 

^And if nothing else, based on the album cover you now know a babies head can be used for sound compression

And it will go one for another 7.5 years or 75 depending on the life of the forum.

;)

The Tubes debut album is a prog album but I know they have been discussed to death for inclusion and always refused. Just too much fun to be a prog band.

I would like some of the English punk bands to be included especially The Stranglers. They were actually very popular with prog fans (as were The Tubes) which must say something.

Always been very fond of Al Stewart but not for Prog folk but rather Crossover.

If I could remove one band from PA it would be Queen. I was totally against their inclusion in the first place and still feel it is very misleading to include them just for Queen II which barely has anything to do with prog. Don't get me wrong though they were a fantastic band and one of the very best of the seventies just not a prog band.

Didn't even realise that XTC were not included ( they should be I would have thought). I only have English Settlement but the song about roundabouts is very amusing. I wonder if anyone not from Swindon ( my home town) actually 'gets' that song!

Sorry. When I own the site they are going straight into crossover in the data sector where Tori Amos used to be.

I totally agree about The Stranglers. they never were a punk band, they were just marketed as one. but their music has nothing to do with punk whatever. hell, they even have real polyphony in some of their songs, which is something only very few prog bands were capable of

They've been cleared for addition for 2.5 months now, we're just waiting for them to be added.

That's not how it happened. You and I have been through this a million times. Maybe for some bands but not as distinct genres. I actually can't think of many psych bands who turned into prog but I suppose there were some. Maybe Pink Floyd.

Psych absolutely laid the groundwork if not the rough blueprint for Prog, but inclusions are usually psych artists that had some important impact on what became known as prog rock, i.e. Jefferson Airplane.   Whereas the Dead, Big Brother, and Steppenwolf not so much.   I may think the Dead are a progressive rock band (in fact I do, and have seriously considered as a SC submitting them for Proto or -Related), but the marked influence Airplane and Giles,Giles&Fripp and Hendrix and Spirit had on prog is more evident.

But there is definitely some room for a few more artists in that realm.

If we're going to psychedelia, it would seem that Country Joe & The Fish should also be an addition....Assuredly one of the most psychedelic of them all....I am in absolute agreement that psych is one of the progenitors of prog, having witnessed it metamorphose in action (and all without LSD on my part  )

That's not how it happened. You and I have been through this a million times. Maybe for some bands but not as distinct genres. I actually can't think of many psych bands who turned into prog but I suppose there were some. Maybe Pink Floyd.

And I see your point, that is likely true, and definitely PF began as a psych band, no bout adoubt it, with them in particular.  I was merely speaking to the psych music movement laying the groundwork for prog, which maybe I mistakenly was thinking this thread was speaking about.  Thus I used the word, "progenitors."

patrickq wrote: admireArt wrote: TUXEDOMOON, The Furure Sound of London, Carbon Based Lifeforms, Alva Noto Tuxedomoon +1

Tuxedomoon +2 and I raise you Pere Ubu. XTC goes without saying, again.

That's not how it happened. You and I have been through this a million times. Maybe for some bands but not as distinct genres. I actually can't think of many psych bands who turned into prog but I suppose there were some. Maybe Pink Floyd.

And I see your point, that is likely true, and definitely PF began as a psych band, no bout adoubt it, with them in particular.  I was merely speaking to the psych music movement laying the groundwork for prog, which maybe I mistakenly was thinking this thread was speaking about.  Thus I used the word, "progenitors."

But there was still progressive elements even in that first PF album. It's just that the psychedelia overshadowed it. Psychedelic was popular before prog I'll give you that much.  Actually, prog didn't come out of nowhere and there were psych elements in a lot of the earlier stuff. Many of those earlier bands have been given the label proto prog. Of course nobody called them proto prog at the time. Some people even used the term classidelica apparently to refer to some of them.  Was there overlap between the two? Yep. Pink Floyd are also sometimes referred to as the fathers of space rock. Hawkwind's debut wasn't until 1970(great year ;) so PF had a headstart. 

It may have laid the ground work in some respects but Mothers of Invention, The Nice, Procol Harum, the Moody Blues, Clouds/123 and maybe one or two others(even PF if we want to throw them in)were doing progressive music(or proto prog)in 1967. The ideology of progressive music was different than psych. Imo, they were two separate ideologies that bands were starting to explore around the same time. Sure, there was overlap but I don't think prog grew out of psych like many people seem to think. THey were related in the sense that they were both experimenting with a different approaches to music but they both had different goals and methodologies.

Anyway, yes no reason why a few more psych bands can't be added. I'm pretty sure Spirit is on here under proto prog. Even though you didn't mention them I don't know about Moby Grape or QSMS.

Which is why most of those bands are here in full Prog categories: Crossover, Avant, Symph, etc. rather than Proto or -Related like where the Dead might be placed.

^ Oh I think they know about the Space, but that isn't generally a prog marker.   It's shocking, I know.

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude here but unless you were in the recording studios or hung out with these early bands you weren't there. You don't know what the musicians were thinking or what they were actually striving for. Early prog didn't get much exposure it was very underground. Those albums I mentioned were not psych. DOFP by the Moodies was not psych. It was early prog/ proto prog or art rock. Art rock and psych were separate. I'm not the only one who feels that way. I have spoken to others who were "there" who agree with me. I actually used to think that way too and in did for a very long time until I took a really long deep look at it. Sure on the surface it seems like prog evolved from psych(since psych may have started earlier) but it didn't. It was already starting by the time psych hit it's commercial peak. As I said before they were two separate ideologies. 

Pere Ubu isn't on here? Well, you have to have the Tubes also then.

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: Snicolette wrote: I see both points of yours (Mike) and Atavachron (David, I think?).  No one knew what it was, it was an organic growth at the time....again, I was there and to me, I can see the direct lines, but I don't expect that everyone would and also understand that this is a Prog site, not a Psych site.   Sorry, I don't mean to be rude here but unless you were in the recording studios or hung out with these early bands you weren't there. You don't know what the musicians were thinking or what they were actually striving for. Early prog didn't get much exposure it was very underground. Those albums I mentioned were not psych. DOFP by the Moodies was not psych. It was early prog/ proto prog or art rock. Art rock and psych were separate. I'm not the only one who feels that way. I have spoken to others who were "there" who agree with me. I actually used to think that way too and in did for a very long time until I took a really long deep look at it. Sure on the surface it seems like prog evolved from psych but it didn't. It was already starting by the time psych hit it's commercial peak. As I said before they were two separate ideologies.

They became separate, but you can't tell me the Nice, one of the single most important early symphonic rock bands, was not in reality an English Psych group.   Just listen to the first two LPs.   Psych in the most kitschy and classic way.

Which leads me to my next point which is that being in the friggin' studio is not required to draw clear lines between the music being made & recorded, who was influencing who, and which albums were impacting subsequent albums.   Far more accurate and historically correct than what any book or historian or opinion has to say about it.   Follow the music, it's all right there.

Yes, that's exactly my point. They were prog bands not psych bands and didn't evolve from psych either(since they were so early). 

Hey, stop taking her side. LOL.

At least provide specific examples then(something I have yet to see). 

Psychedelic rock was huge, far bigger than prog ever was even in prog's popular heyday.   It still is, for crying out loud.   The Doors, Hendrix and Pink Floyd (yes Floyd was a psych band) are still far more popular than ELP or Yes or Tull.   Zappa, the Nice, GG&F, most certainly did evolve from Psych, if not in style than in spirit.

Examples of ... ?  

That's why I say it's in the LPs chronologically.   Anyone can just claim "A band was this or it was that", but that's not good enough, is it.   You go to the releases--  what albums had been released at what specific moments, who was listening, and which influences then can clearly be heard, audible on later albums by other artists.  

That's music history

Well, some of that is arguable. 

Anyway, they all had progressive elements. They just didn't get labelled prog or progressive until much later. Even the Beatles on Sgt. Peppers had progressive elements. Many consider a day in the life to be a prog song. They both evolved concurrently. That's my opinion. Progressive music/proto prog/art rock became prog rock later but it was there around the same time(or at the very least those elements were) psych started. 

Well, some of that is arguable. 

Anyway, they all had progressive elements. They just didn't get labelled prog or progressive until much later. Even the Beatles on Sgt. Peppers had progressive elements. Many consider a day in the life to be a prog song. They both evolved concurrently. That's my opinion. Progressive music/proto prog/art rock became prog rock later but it was there around the same time(or at the very least those elements were) psych started. 

The Doors were proto prog also and are listed as such on here. Aside from Pink Floyd who I consider prog not a psych no psych band was as big as ELP, Yes, Genesis, JT etc. Prog in it's hey day was most certainly bigger than psych. Look up album sales. The term psych became more well known than the term prog but that's starting to change. 

Prog had a brief and glorious moment and did top the Charts, but the staying power of classic 60s Psych outdoes 70s prog.   Ask someone on the street if they've heard of the Doors, Hendrix, Janis Joplin, or the Dead and almost all will say "Of course" or "Yeah my Dad used to like those guys".   Then ask about ELP, Gentle Giant, or even Genesis and they probably won't even know 80s Genesis let alone the prog era version.

I already did that on the previous page. I mentioned bands who released progressive albums. Do I have to keep mentioning the same bands over and over? 

Prog became popular after psych but that's it. That's probably what you are going by and that's understandable. Most people were not exposed to anything termed prog(even later)other than the first King Crimson album.

^ She's telling you she was raised in a Psych hotbed.   So did I, I grew up in San Francisco in the 60s & 70s.   It doesn't get more psychedelic than that (heck I lived a block from Janis and next door to Santana, literally).   When you've lived and listened to the music from the inside out, things become more clear regarding impact and influence.

 Amen!  

Agreed, Atavachron probably remembers that there were names bandied about like "Classical Rock," "Raga Rock," "Art Rock," etc before "Progressive Rock," was kind of settled on as the descriptive, as it was happening.

Agree to disagree. In the 80's Genesis had three multi platinum selling albums(and one a little later bringing their total up to four). Invisible Touch sold six million. So no, you are incorrect sir. If you just go by San Francisco then I would possibly agree. Then again age might be a factor too but I bet just as many people know Genesis and Pink Floyd(if not more so)and RUSH than Janis Joplin and the other psych bands. GD aren't really known as just a psych band anyway. Same thing with PF. What other psych album besides the first Doors album sold 6 million copies? Then you also have to contend with Kansas and Rush who also have multiple platinum prog albums. What psych band sold out multiple times for three nights in a row at MSG and the spectrum in Philly? It wasn't Pink Floyd it was that little band who wouldn't take no for an answer. ;) So between Floyd, Rush, Kansas, JT and Yes(and even Genesis) prog pretty much wipes the floor with psych as far as album sales goes and people knowing about those bands. That's just the way it is. Album sales don't lie.

None of that takes away from the fact you had progressive music and music with progressive elements around the same time as psych. Only labels came later. I don't usually quote outside sources but will this time. Here's a quote from wikipedia: "Pet Sounds and Sgt. Pepper's, with their lyrical unity, extended structure, complexity, eclecticism, experimentalism, and influences derived from classical music forms, are largely viewed as beginnings in the progressive rock genre." Another example is the first MOI album which I often hear referred to as an early "prog" album. Frank would probably be insulted if you tried to lump him in with psychedelia. :P Ok, in reality he probably wouldn't lose any sleep over it but at the very least he would disagree with you. ;)

If anything that proves my point. A lot of psych was progressive. To me the Doors, Pink Floyd and a bunch of other bands were progressive. The Doors had long songs with organ solos. Same thing with the Nice. Progressive elements were in psych just like you had bands like Gong and Hawkwind and others who had psych elements. 

Okay when Oliver Stone makes a movie about Rush or Kansas, we'll talk.   Until then let's give the artists that made a true cultural and musical difference the credit they're due.  

Take a poll on the street.   I will if you will.   I reeeaaaalllly doubt Genesis or ELP or Kansas will beat out the classic 60s psych bands.   Besides, when has a discussion about style & influence ever been about sales?   If you ask someone what Cream were, assuming they know popular music, they may say a "rock band", "blues rock", "heavy blues", whatever.   But in fact, at that time, Cream were as much a psych rock band as anything else.   Psychedelic rock is largely what allowed the freedom rock musicians had in that era, leading to progressive rock despite the fact that the two styles were quite different.   It didn't come from Blues or Jazz or Folk or classical or standard rock 'n roll.   The level of musical liberties taken in that period certainly wasn't coming from 'Like a Rolling Stone', 'Help', or 'Surfin Safari'.   

This could be extended to proto-prog electronic with artists such as Walter Carlos, Raymond Scott etc

Proto-prog folk: Godz

I'm sure i could come up with more

The Doors is just one example. Bohemian Rhapsody was a prog song and a movie. Yes and Rush have had movies also(concert films but it doesn't matter). Other than spinal tap(who weren't a real band) no metal bands have a had movie so that isn't a good argument. 

I don't have to take a poll on the street. The number of people stopping me telling me they are also a fan is enough for me when I wore my Rush t shirt. No psych band has a bigger fanbase of real fans than Rush. No one. 

The inspiration of psych was mostly drugs and maybe some folk music. For progressive, prog, art rock etc it was mostly jazz and classical and maybe some folk. Sure, some of them did some drugs but their musical aspirations were higher than just making music to trip out to.

Prog-folk...  and the lack of American folk contained within that.  Perhaps the Dead could have fit in there.. but a band that really could have fit that even better..  anyone?  The Band.

if an english group did this.. or an album like The Big Pink.. more advanced musically than many of the English folkies that reside in Folk Prog...they'd be in the site in a heartbeat.. but an American band and we know well the subconscious bias that exists for American bands and prog.

Psych was termed as such because of psychedelic drugs.  But the actual origins of the movement (and the music) were (yes, Timothy Leary's experiments with mind-expanding drugs)...but truly an intellectual and peace movement, which is lost to many who weren't there.  I didn't do a lot of drugs (I know, you're laughing, but it's true), there was a parallel movement of "naturalism," that happened at the same time that led to the organic foods/ecological movements...and being at the tail end of psychedelia, was what I latched onto, but still enjoyed the sound and the evocative emotions of it and then, what ensued later, borne of the creativity of the musicians of the time and those that followed.

They should at least be in here for prog related. One of their members is now in Big Big Train. 

Maybe Tears for Fears also. That might be a stretch but I know a lot of prog fans like them.

That would open the door to Simple Minds , China Crisis , Propaganda, OMD ( they used a Mellotron once!) and a whole raft of other eighties bands that were basically just really good bands but had little to do with prog . Simple Minds were fans of Genesis so perhaps that's enough to get them in?

XTC went out on a limb with their music to a much greater extent I believe although I haven't heard everything they did. Again I am very surprised they are not included when Talk Talk ( a much less interesting eighties band imo) are included?

correction. this may be true where you live, but in Germany Rush never were a big deal

I disagree vehemently on Grateful Dead being on PA or considered progressive in any fashion. That is the definition of a blind squirrel finding a nut (in band form) to me. Almost like everyone wants to blend Psych, Proto, etc. together and start blending the "grey" areas versus being so black and white (both have their faults IMHO).

I.E. "Having your PA cake and eating it too".

The Dark Elf wrote: Santana. Progressive for its integration and synthesis of Latin rhythms, blues and jazz-fusion with a rock foundation. There was nothing remotely comparable to Santana in the late 60s/early 70s. There really still isn't.

Greg, Santana have been here for quite some time (and I also happen to agree with you): http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2667" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2667

In fact these categories predate all the controversy over the inclusion and non-inclusion of artists, so they are not the problem per se. 

The problem was how categories were handled during a time (every category, not only proto and related), and the wild reasoning behind the inclusion of many of the most popular classic rock/metal bands from 60s and 70s (and some from the eighties) and the rejection of other bands with a fairly strict definition of prog. 

If you were in the forums (and I know you were), you could see that often the main argument that made these popular classic rock and metal bands being included was that some special collabs and admins of the time championed the inclusion for being avid fans of such bands, while others were ignored because they were not so popular and special collabs and admins of the time shrugged at them.

People were just not inclined to listen to what the others had to say at those days.

Totally missed that one ... and a band I like and have their albums!

In many ways, I think that the GD gave a lot of Europeans the idea of long cuts and what to do with them. It's easy to think that a lot of those long cuts in the "progressive" mold have an origin in classical music, but I'm not sure that the GD had just as much of an influence on it. 

And you gotta give the GD some credit, because they stuck with their design and still could do a very nice long cut even after Jerry went on his planetary vacation ... and gosh do we miss him! Probably one of the most talented "progressive" guitarists ever, even moonlighting on his own with another "guitar master" ... on the side ... which ought to specify the level of his musicianship!

Weird that someone "separated" this, when so much of the music came from the Psych thing ... even the DOORS, and almost all of the SF bands. In fact, it was too many drugs, sex and rock music that killed a lot of people in SF a few years later, including some of the folks in radio that helped that scene live!

Drugs are, and have been, a large part of almost EVERY SINGLE ART PROCESS there is out there ... the only thing is that we make it a big deal with our judiciously __________ religiosity, that music and all the arts have to remain pristine and never ever have sex and abstain in favor of crap lyrics and moron singers that think they are telling a story and they are only singing "notes" ... a real singer doesn't do "notes" ... a real singer makes you live, die and cry all in one word!

The main issue I have, is that the folks "voting", are going for too many of their "favorites" and the gands they like ... after all ... c'mon ... read the first sentence or chapter in your Sociology 101 book ... that the majority of things done in America (hahaha!) are done by groups that are in effect doing the same thing that happens in the American House and American Senate. Pushing their agendas! What many of these folks MIGHT lack is an honest SUBJECTIVE opinion on music, and a general (GENERAL!) IDEA and educational idea of the history of music in various places, and its connection to the many other arts around them, which is a sort of another subject here of importance that is hidden, and totally ignored ... like folks in Theater are stupid, and folks in Film are morons, and folks in Literature are Venusians ... while some low ball rock'rs get some level of "importance" that is totally out of line with the arts and the comparisons side by side, show how bad some of these groups can be ... but Melody Maker loved them, because they wanted English bands to succeed in America and Europe!

Worse yet ... we believed them!

The bad part, and it still lingers today, is that "psych" has become a bad word ... and too many of our religioso grunts (zog, zog, zog, zog ... ) still think that drugs are bad, and continually make their ideas known in really weird ways ... regardless of drugs or religion ... IT'S ABOUT THE PERSON and their spirit of creativity ... and the drugs were/are a superficial thing ... and mostly related to their younger days ... 

But nah ... I think that too many folks look at "Psych" as some really bad stuff ... like some of the dope these days, with fake this and that to make you think that it is better than you know ... let's try it with Strawberry Alarm Shake Poop!

All the more reason why I want the top ten to be taken down for ... top ten bands instead ... it would help separate the hit folks out ... and if they leave ... probably good riddance and we might have a better defined and implemented idea of "Progressive" and SPECIALLY ITS HISTORY, which is very different in various countries, but the results still were ... massively great music!

This site, and specially a lot of the band bios, intentionally ignore the history around each band and their growth ... like discussing some of the music, and totally ignore their historic socio/political relevance that brought them into attention in the first place. 

You must all think that White Rabbit is just about drugs ... you don't know the lyrics and can NEVER relate the song to its time and place ... and this is one of the reasons why Grace keeps saying that she does not want to be a moron geriatric hippie singer when she gets old ... because it won't mean anything anymore! And she has a huge point, although I think that she would change her singing and probably create something different and new ... although I'm not sure she can survive without Balin or Kantner ... they were massive in her life in terms of adding music to her words, and her adding vocals to theirs!

THAT alone is worth being on PA.

AND what it all meant in a larger sphere of experience.

Too many of the folks in PA have come from the hit making school of listening to music, and they are not capable of handling a scene like SF or even "Krautrock", that has had so many bands thank SF for the inspiration, and its pretty obvious to me, why!

I'm a couple of years behind, Madison (WI) from 1965 to 1971, and then Santa Barbara from then on ... and I got to see most of those bands, and sadly enough, their demise as well ... and while I was not happy to see the name "Jefferson Airplane" disappear, the excitement of the new album by "Jefferson Starship" was massive, with at least a couple of outstanding pieces of music.

I wonder how much of it all had to do with KSAN and KMET/KLOS and their pull ... when those stations started losing their "fans" to hit making radio, those stations stopped fighting the establishment, and instead BECAME the establishment, by giving you the same crap over and over again ... and the two in LA would never again play a single of anything from those SF/LA bands!

Even Ken and the merry Pranksters were laughed about ... but look at them now ... much better respected and loved for their literary influence and history ... and the rock music? To the dumps with sites creating even more garbage for a definition and its history!

I really do not think that a group of folks weaned on top ten music, can discern what it means to make those synthesis, and the jazz/rock fusion ... specially if it does not get done in 3.1 minutes, so to speak.

The fusions and the cultural additions of a lot of different countries were massive studies and undertakings in the 60's and they helped theater, film, and other arts develop ... except rock music ... it's not an art, you know?

I don't know ... when reading Andy's book, you get the idea that he doesn't care what the music is called, and that is an important consideration ... it's about his VISION, and how he decorates what he sees, and calling his music this or that ... really brings XTC down to a level that will have most fans disappointed and worse, upset that this band is this or that.

In theater, there is a term for the writer, or play that is "out there" and defies description, and in many ways, XTC fits in an area like this ... so that folks that come to listen to it, don't think that this is "psych" and then listen to ENGLISH SETTLEMENT and then wonder ... wtf?

There are others that also fit in these exclusive areas, but they are few and far in between, and in these situations it is mostly about the individuality, than it is a musical this or that ... and we have to grow up and accept stuff like that ... because there are not enough musicians at age 20 that even know what "progressive" means ... except that they like that guitar going like this all over ... and that is the stuff you "learn" ... first ... before you even know what it is!

AND, worse ... just saw the Bob Weir special (tremendous ... and far out!) ... and the son of a gun was dyslexic ... just like Andy. They see their music VISUALLY not in note and music fashion that we "define" ... and that is what we need to stop doing ... defining those inner parameters, because all we're doing is confusing people! And making it worse, since it has no link to our own inner process!

I think that I've mentioned this somewhere before on these forums....but here we go.  My sisters were 5 & 6 years older than me and besides listening to bands like The Beatles and Rolling Stones, etc when they first emerged on the scene in the early 60's (I remember seeing them both on Ed Sullivan, and The Doors, too, later), they worked for a little venue in nearby Torrance, CA, called The Bank.  They would go out and pass out flyers for upcoming shows, etc. at the beach and around school and such in return for free admission to the shows.  They actually saw Pink Floyd there on their first US tour in 1968, I remember them talking about it the next day....Many of the bands who played The Bank also played The Fillmore and The Family Dog, including Big Brother & The Holding Company, Quicksilver Messenger Service, etc.  So yep, you got it right, Atavachron.  I didn't know you'd grown up in SF then, we visited every year on the way to spend summers at my great-aunt's place just north of Mendocino.  Interesting times to observe!  

Not intended as such ... but a lot of the comments about "psych" this and that are becoming a sort of cartoon like reality that I'm not sure is helping the music not only look better, but also get more respect.

I will re-iterate that what scares me mostly, is that Ken and his Merry Pranksters, are getting a lot more love for their work, and the folks in the rock world/section are still kissing and licking lollipops hoping to grow up and getting some well deserved attention.

The most "respect" we get is from folks like you and others here, however, because of our inability to create something SOLID and WELL STATED, instead of a definition that is for the zog'rs of the world (never liked the word lemmings, I guess!), so that the music can finally get some respect and attention to its detail ... a lot of it, deserves that attention ... but we, as horrible historians and students, are not capable of elevating the music ... we constantly lower it, and continually thinking that Mosh is just putting you all down, he is trying hard to intellectually challenge all of you to find a better way to help this becomes a solid music design within the history of music ... instead, we go for top ten singles and ignore the albums and the actual "work" that any band has to offer.

So, bands like YES are history because of CTTE but total merde when it comes to the rest of their cannon and history ... and that is insulting and very detrimental to any creative person out there ... how would you like to spend 50 years of your life creating music and singing it, and then be told the day before you die, that it's all merde for the illiterate! I would do what Picasso did ... brought out a finger and say ... I did it! You didn't!

Please look at it on the larger sense ... you are separating the example on purpose, and making a point of separating things for the sake of not getting anywhere, specially when you think it's personal. I have nothing but respect for many of you folks, even if I needle and fart on many of them ... you do know that when you get old, it's harder to control the farts, right? Ohhh ... you'll know that soon enough!

Tuxedomoon +3. I see your Pere Ubu, and raise you Chrome

(Damon Edge, Helios Creed...giants among men)

Oh I love Chrome but am not going to get all upset if this site isn't willing to label them "prog".

Now you're my lawyer. 

As Forest Gump might say "prog is as prog does."