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The Strange Omissions of the Archives
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Snicolette View Drop Down
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Points: 6039 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2019 at 11:35
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Now you're my lawyer. LOL

LOL
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tempest_77 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by patrickq patrickq wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

WHERES KING GIZZARD


They've been cleared for addition for 2.5 months now, we're just waiting for them to be added.


Aye that’s some good news


How do you discover whether a suggested artist has been “cleared”?

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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

this is of course a personal opinion, but there are a lot of strange omissions in the archives. I know many will disagree; please feel free to add your 5 cents' worth.

psychedelic rock is arguably one of the roots of progressive rock, so I would expect to have the foremost bands of that genre in here. Jefferson Airplane can indeed be found, but other important artists are strangely missing. let me list some:

The Grateful Dead. I have seen derogatory comments about The Grateful Dead in here like "they were just a jam band", to which I would say "so what? many short-lived Krautrock bands were nothing else". anyway, just one listen to the amazing "Live/Dead" album from 1969 should be enough to blow that opinion to smithereens.

The 13th Floor Elevators. why the first two albums of this amazing band are not celebrated as forerunners of progressive rock on this site is completely beyond me.

Steppenwolf. one of my absolute favorite bands that started out in the 60s and definitely forerunners of prog rock, with "Born to be Wild" and "The Pusher" being two songs from one of the most famous cult movies ever, "Easy Rider".

Big Brother and the Holding Company. another band that does not get the credit it deserves on this site. featuring one of the most prominent members of the "Club 27" on their first two albums (Janis Joplin) that can rightly be named cornerstones of psychedelic rock.

again, this is just my opinion, but since I am a trained historian I think the omission of some of the historic roots of prog rock is a bit weird


I'd include Quicksilver Messenger Service well before these bands, really!!



Please not that if I was the main doer of Jeff's Airplane being in, I made sure that Jeef's Starship didn't get included. But I'd also want to add Grace Slick's first two solo albums, Paul Kantner's three albums (with Grace) between the Airplane and the Starship
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Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Santana. Progressive for its integration and synthesis of Latin rhythms, blues and jazz-fusion with a rock foundation. There was nothing remotely comparable to Santana in the late 60s/early 70s. There really still isn't.


Greg, Santana have been here for quite some time (and I also happen to agree with youSmile): http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2667

Oh. I guess I should...you know...actually pay attention to such things. Never mind. Wink
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
XTC went out on a limb with their music to a much greater extent I believe although I haven't heard everything they did. Again I am very surprised they are not included when Talk Talk ( a much less interesting eighties band imo) are included?

I don't know ... when reading Andy's book, you get the idea that he doesn't care what the music is called, and that is an important consideration ... it's about his VISION, and how he decorates what he sees, and calling his music this or that ... really brings XTC down to a level that will have most fans disappointed and worse, upset that this band is this or that.

In theater, there is a term for the writer, or play that is "out there" and defies description, and in many ways, XTC fits in an area like this ... so that folks that come to listen to it, don't think that this is "psych" and then listen to ENGLISH SETTLEMENT and then wonder ... wtf?

There are others that also fit in these exclusive areas, but they are few and far in between, and in these situations it is mostly about the individuality, than it is a musical this or that ... and we have to grow up and accept stuff like that ... because there are not enough musicians at age 20 that even know what "progressive" means ... except that they like that guitar going like this all over ... and that is the stuff you "learn" ... first ... before you even know what it is!

AND, worse ... just saw the Bob Weir special (tremendous ... and far out!) ... and the son of a gun was dyslexic ... just like Andy. They see their music VISUALLY not in note and music fashion that we "define" ... and that is what we need to stop doing ... defining those inner parameters, because all we're doing is confusing people! And making it worse, since it has no link to our own inner process!
 

we will no doubt end up just going round in circles as always but hey ho...

Yes I agree that 'progressive' is more a state of mind rather than a style of music ( I think that is what you are saying)

I also have no problem with a band being included that doesn't fit the description of prog rock. At the end of the day we have bands like Radiohead and Mansun here ( check out Six as that was probably the most 'progressive' album of the decade that had little to do with 'prog rock') so why not XTC?

For the record I have no academic understanding of music whatsoever . I only listen and decide if I like something although intellectually I will always seek 'different'. I mean a band without a lead guitarist should never 'work' should it but I'm intrigued. I came to prog via ELP when I was 14 because of the endless (it seemed) riffing guitar based bands that bored me to death. That's all.
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

...
Please not that if I was the main doer of Jeff's Airplane being in, I made sure that Jeef's Starship didn't get included. But I'd also want to add Grace Slick's first two solo albums, Paul Kantner's three albums (with Grace) between the Airplane and the Starship

It's the same person, or people ... they deserve the respect for having done the work, and be remembered for it ... I happen to also love the RIDE OF THE TIGER album, and it has several pieces that were played in Santa Barbara until the album had holes in it, and they had to get more copies! On the same vein, later, they had a couple of really big numbers as well ... not just hits.

To me, in this case, it's all or nothing ... I can not separate Paul from Marty from Grace from Jorma or from Jack ... they all belong together for having given us so much of themselves ... so much ... that it was a wonder that some of them did not fall prey to so much of the dope and this and that at the time, specially in SF! Grace's biography book, btw, kinda pooh poohs the whole sex thing as over rated! And very boring!
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I don't understand why the Dead aren't in here. They should be in here for prog related at least if not psych/ space. My guess is those who make these decisions are not aware of the Grateful Dead's space jams(not to mention Terrapin Station) and only know their radio hits. 
You must all think that White Rabbit is just about drugs ...
all lovers of the Alice books will notice some strange mistakes in the lyrics of "White Rabbit". the White Knight is not talking backwards; the White Queen, however, lives somewhat backwards in time - first she starts bandaging her finger, then she starts shouting, then she pricks her finger with a needle while trying to fix her scarf to her dress.

and it is not the Red Queen who shouts "Off with her head" but the Queen of Hearts.

Alice also never eats pills that make her change her size, she eats and drinks other things (cakes, a mushroom, liquid in a bottle that has a sign "drink me" on it), and once the fan of the white rabbit makes her grow while she holds it. but that can be a deliberate mistake used for making a drug reference


Edited by BaldJean - August 01 2019 at 11:41


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Odvin Draoi View Drop Down
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Strange omissions can be more understandable than strange inclusions, as omissions can have more varying reasons.

There are quite bunch of strange inclusions here, too; which is more interesting. It is not a complaint, just a point made. Actually I don't care at all.

On the other hand, though omissions can be a result of many variables, if an obviously prog band is not included, it has to be more disturbing than the inclusion of a nonprog band. 
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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

I feel like everyone is just now throwing out bands they can argue/expand the definition of "progressive rock" with, simply for a reason to have more content on the site to debate over, lol.

I disagree vehemently on Grateful Dead being on PA or considered progressive in any fashion. That is the definition of a blind squirrel finding a nut (in band form) to me. Almost like everyone wants to blend Psych, Proto, etc. together and start blending the "grey" areas versus being so black and white (both have their faults IMHO).

I.E. "Having your PA cake and eating it too".

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

It's that old discussion..again. What is and isn't 'real prog rock'.
And it will go one for another 7.5 years or 75 depending on the life of the forum.
;)

Exactly. We'll still be here in 7.5 years though, I have a theory LOL.

I'll probably be dead by then.... LOL....I just turned 68.....
I do agree that the Dead... while a great and interesting band.... is not prog rock....adding them would open the door to all the ones named above , so then why dot simply make this a  rock web site and forget the prog rock pretensions and categories. I mean The Beatles are here...The Who...Led Zep, etc, etc...bands I have never considered true prog rock....nor even prog related for that matter. So why not add XTC, The Dead, etc..? At this point does it matter?
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Or make it rateyourmusic mark 2. I mean we already have music in the archives that is not rock.
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Originally posted by Odvin Draoi Odvin Draoi wrote:

Strange omissions can be more understandable than strange inclusions, as omissions can have more varying reasons.

There are quite bunch of strange inclusions here, too; which is more interesting. It is not a complaint, just a point made. Actually I don't care at all.

On the other hand, though omissions can be a result of many variables, if an obviously prog band is not included, it has to be more disturbing than the inclusion of a nonprog band. 

interesting...  and for what is worth and guess it is something for what parts i played with this site.

strange inclusion .. not can be.. in fact ARE more understandable than strange omissions.

why?  Because there are so many different views or interpretations of what is prog or not.. and the site should have.. and damnit man I fought HARD .. and battled a few here rather memorably.. to promote the notion that this site for for you all.. not about us.. the collabs and genre teams.. and we needed to error if you will on the side of inclusiveness.

the problem was.. perhaps still is in some quarters.. that that stamp of being calling 'prog' by being included on this site is more a sign of musical validity.. superiority if you will.. elitism....and thus is guarded jealously.
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It is fun to go back and check out the old Gary Numan discussions.  Someone from PA actually wrote to the guy and asked Gary Numan if he considered himself prog.  Then, someone brought up Devo.  Progressive was a term many people assigned to them back in the day, but not in the same manner as Prog for Prog Rock.  Art Punk was a term ascribed to them, and for many people, they were way ahead of their time and misrepresented when they became popular.  In a Mark Mothersbaugh interview, he discusses how keyboard was being used by Keith Emerson, but that he was seeking a much different sound and role for the instrument.  I often find that usage of space (as in rests) in music is just as important as usage of tones applied at the right moments.  I'd be drawn and quartered for suggesting any prog connection, so I keep any opinions on that particular matter strictly to myself.  

I share Micky's viewpoint, however, that it is probably better to err on the side of inclusiveness and let the listeners decide when the answer isn't clear.  Of course, one has to draw the line somewhere.  Music in other genres certainly influence prog, and there is a lot of gray area especially with bands that straddle multiple genres.  I imagine it is not always a fun role to take people to task especially when it is oftentimes the loudest voice in the room that is the one that dominates.  

I imagine that one day genres will be so mixed up that it will be like unraveling spaghetti or tangled kite string trying to figure out who's who and what's what.



Edited by Jaketejas - August 01 2019 at 17:36
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:


strange inclusion .. not can be.. in fact ARE more understandable than strange omissions.

Omissions can be out of lack of time, yet inclusions are not pardonable unless there's a special case.

I think Nightwish, Therion are less prog than Cradle of Filth. Ok, Nightwish at times used odd time signatures and all. Therion is like Zeuhl, some sort of innovative "worshipping to the ancient ones" kind of repetitions etc. Yet, Cradle of Filth's music is FAR MORE innovative and progressive. I don't support that progressive music is superior or better and the like. Yet if adding some odd time signatures is enough for Nightwish to be labelled as progressive, I would interpose. Imagine a music scene where progressive music is the most popular. So any band can add odd time signatures in a mathematical way, and can enter the archives. Is that just?


Edited by Odvin Draoi - August 01 2019 at 17:37
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I always thought the black metal band Ancient was a strange inclusion here, basically copying Emperor for awhile and then Cradle of Filth (neither on PA), certainly not an original band. 

Nightwish at least kick-started a style, but as much as I like their early stuff a lot (Oceanborn for sure), they really are just symphonic power metal more than anything.

Stereolab is a band that wouldn't phase me if they were ever added. Granted, their most famous stuff in the mid-90's is more "art-pop" than anything else, but their earlier stuff had a strong krautrock influence and their late 90's stuff (Dots & Loops to some extent, but especially Cobra..) had lots of jazzy instrumentation and weird tempos going on...and no one really sounded like them, a totally unique band. The song "Blips, Drips and Strips" off Cobra might as well be called "math-lounge".

For new artists, Julia Holter's most recent album Aviary goes way past Tori Amos and even Kate Bush into avant garde weirdness territory. She was rejected by one team, but I wonder if it was before Aviary because that's some far out stuff goin' on.


Edited by Prog Sothoth - August 01 2019 at 18:36
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Oceanborn is awesome indeed. I like Therion, Nightwish, Kamelot a lot. Especially their earlier times. Yet, it has always been strange to see them in the Archives here. It is not a problem, though. It is just strange. 
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would anybody include Credence Clearwater Revival?


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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

would anybody include Credence Clearwater Revival?

Haha, as a big fan of The Big Lebowski, I'd never say no. Anything related to The Dude is treasured in my soul. Star
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I don't see anything remotely prog in CCR. the funny thing is that the German band Jeronimo are in here. Jeronimo not only sound EXACTLY like CCR, the even made an album with them with Jeronimo playing on one side and CCR on the other


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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I don't see anything remotely prog in CCR. the funny thing is that the German band Jeronimo are in here. Jeronimo not only sound EXACTLY like CCR, the even made an album with them with Jeronimo playing on one side and CCR on the other

When you say Jeronimo and German, I recalled this song, nolens volens. 

Add Modern Talking for 80s' sake! LOL


Edited by Odvin Draoi - August 01 2019 at 20:36
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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

would anybody include Credence Clearwater Revival?

To me "ramble tamble" from Cosmo's factory is prog but I doubt most would label it that way. Same thing with their rendition of "heard it through the grape vine." They could really jam when they wanted to. Over all there's probably a better chance of a Pee Wee Herman playhouse album(if there is such a thing) getting on here before CCR though.
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