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The Strange Omissions of the Archives |
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Raff 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
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 Posted: July 31 2019 at 04:34 |
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Greg, Santana have been here for quite some time (and I also happen to agree with you
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mickcoxinha
Forum Groupie 
Joined: January 03 2008 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 05:46 |
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In fact these categories predate all the controversy over the inclusion and non-inclusion of artists, so they are not the problem per se. The problem was how categories were handled during a time (every category, not only proto and related), and the wild reasoning behind the inclusion of many of the most popular classic rock/metal bands from 60s and 70s (and some from the eighties) and the rejection of other bands with a fairly strict definition of prog. If you were in the forums (and I know you were), you could see that often the main argument that made these popular classic rock and metal bands being included was that some special collabs and admins of the time championed the inclusion for being avid fans of such bands, while others were ignored because they were not so popular and special collabs and admins of the time shrugged at them. People were just not inclined to listen to what the others had to say at those days.
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17506 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 07:40 |
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Totally missed that one ... and a band I like and have their albums!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17506 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 07:44 |
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In many ways, I think that the GD gave a lot of Europeans the idea of long cuts and what to do with them. It's easy to think that a lot of those long cuts in the "progressive" mold have an origin in classical music, but I'm not sure that the GD had just as much of an influence on it. And you gotta give the GD some credit, because they stuck with their design and still could do a very nice long cut even after Jerry went on his planetary vacation ... and gosh do we miss him! Probably one of the most talented "progressive" guitarists ever, even moonlighting on his own with another "guitar master" ... on the side ... which ought to specify the level of his musicianship!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18253 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 07:58 |
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correction. this may be true where you live, but in Germany Rush never were a big deal
Not compared to other places and historically this is true but Rush have fans from all over. The very last Rush album made it to number 11 on the German charts. So much for not a big deal. Also, not that it's saying much but that's better than what Yes have done on the charts since 90125. There isn't even a chart for Yes in Germany. At least Rush have one.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 31 2019 at 07:59 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17506 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 08:05 |
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Weird that someone "separated" this, when so much of the music came from the Psych thing ... even the DOORS, and almost all of the SF bands. In fact, it was too many drugs, sex and rock music that killed a lot of people in SF a few years later, including some of the folks in radio that helped that scene live! Drugs are, and have been, a large part of almost EVERY SINGLE ART PROCESS there is out there ... the only thing is that we make it a big deal with our judiciously __________ religiosity, that music and all the arts have to remain pristine and never ever have sex and abstain in favor of crap lyrics and moron singers that think they are telling a story and they are only singing "notes" ... a real singer doesn't do "notes" ... a real singer makes you live, die and cry all in one word! The main issue I have, is that the folks "voting", are going for too many of their "favorites" and the gands they like ... after all ... c'mon ... read the first sentence or chapter in your Sociology 101 book ... that the majority of things done in America (hahaha!) are done by groups that are in effect doing the same thing that happens in the American House and American Senate. Pushing their agendas! What many of these folks MIGHT lack is an honest SUBJECTIVE opinion on music, and a general (GENERAL!) IDEA and educational idea of the history of music in various places, and its connection to the many other arts around them, which is a sort of another subject here of importance that is hidden, and totally ignored ... like folks in Theater are stupid, and folks in Film are morons, and folks in Literature are Venusians ... while some low ball rock'rs get some level of "importance" that is totally out of line with the arts and the comparisons side by side, show how bad some of these groups can be ... but Melody Maker loved them, because they wanted English bands to succeed in America and Europe! Worse yet ... we believed them! The bad part, and it still lingers today, is that "psych" has become a bad word ... and too many of our religioso grunts (zog, zog, zog, zog ... ) still think that drugs are bad, and continually make their ideas known in really weird ways ... regardless of drugs or religion ... IT'S ABOUT THE PERSON and their spirit of creativity ... and the drugs were/are a superficial thing ... and mostly related to their younger days ... But nah ... I think that too many folks look at "Psych" as some really bad stuff ... like some of the dope these days, with fake this and that to make you think that it is better than you know ... let's try it with Strawberry Alarm Shake Poop!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17506 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 08:11 |
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All the more reason why I want the top ten to be taken down for ... top ten bands instead ... it would help separate the hit folks out ... and if they leave ... probably good riddance and we might have a better defined and implemented idea of "Progressive" and SPECIALLY ITS HISTORY, which is very different in various countries, but the results still were ... massively great music! This site, and specially a lot of the band bios, intentionally ignore the history around each band and their growth ... like discussing some of the music, and totally ignore their historic socio/political relevance that brought them into attention in the first place. You must all think that White Rabbit is just about drugs ... you don't know the lyrics and can NEVER relate the song to its time and place ... and this is one of the reasons why Grace keeps saying that she does not want to be a moron geriatric hippie singer when she gets old ... because it won't mean anything anymore! And she has a huge point, although I think that she would change her singing and probably create something different and new ... although I'm not sure she can survive without Balin or Kantner ... they were massive in her life in terms of adding music to her words, and her adding vocals to theirs! THAT alone is worth being on PA.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17506 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 08:18 |
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AND what it all meant in a larger sphere of experience. Too many of the folks in PA have come from the hit making school of listening to music, and they are not capable of handling a scene like SF or even "Krautrock", that has had so many bands thank SF for the inspiration, and its pretty obvious to me, why! I'm a couple of years behind, Madison (WI) from 1965 to 1971, and then Santa Barbara from then on ... and I got to see most of those bands, and sadly enough, their demise as well ... and while I was not happy to see the name "Jefferson Airplane" disappear, the excitement of the new album by "Jefferson Starship" was massive, with at least a couple of outstanding pieces of music. I wonder how much of it all had to do with KSAN and KMET/KLOS and their pull ... when those stations started losing their "fans" to hit making radio, those stations stopped fighting the establishment, and instead BECAME the establishment, by giving you the same crap over and over again ... and the two in LA would never again play a single of anything from those SF/LA bands! Even Ken and the merry Pranksters were laughed about ... but look at them now ... much better respected and loved for their literary influence and history ... and the rock music? To the dumps with sites creating even more garbage for a definition and its history!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17506 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 08:22 |
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I really do not think that a group of folks weaned on top ten music, can discern what it means to make those synthesis, and the jazz/rock fusion ... specially if it does not get done in 3.1 minutes, so to speak. The fusions and the cultural additions of a lot of different countries were massive studies and undertakings in the 60's and they helped theater, film, and other arts develop ... except rock music ... it's not an art, you know?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18253 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 08:25 |
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What does me thinking white rabbit has to do with drugs have to do with anything? Anyway, there is a drug reference(references) in that song and no that's not just my opinion. That personal attack was not only unnecessary but unrelated to my comment which you "responded" to.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 31 2019 at 08:28 |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17506 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 08:29 |
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I don't know ... when reading Andy's book, you get the idea that he doesn't care what the music is called, and that is an important consideration ... it's about his VISION, and how he decorates what he sees, and calling his music this or that ... really brings XTC down to a level that will have most fans disappointed and worse, upset that this band is this or that. In theater, there is a term for the writer, or play that is "out there" and defies description, and in many ways, XTC fits in an area like this ... so that folks that come to listen to it, don't think that this is "psych" and then listen to ENGLISH SETTLEMENT and then wonder ... wtf? There are others that also fit in these exclusive areas, but they are few and far in between, and in these situations it is mostly about the individuality, than it is a musical this or that ... and we have to grow up and accept stuff like that ... because there are not enough musicians at age 20 that even know what "progressive" means ... except that they like that guitar going like this all over ... and that is the stuff you "learn" ... first ... before you even know what it is! AND, worse ... just saw the Bob Weir special (tremendous ... and far out!) ... and the son of a gun was dyslexic ... just like Andy. They see their music VISUALLY not in note and music fashion that we "define" ... and that is what we need to stop doing ... defining those inner parameters, because all we're doing is confusing people! And making it worse, since it has no link to our own inner process!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Snicolette
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2018 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 6039 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 08:44 |
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I think that I've mentioned this somewhere before on these forums....but here we go. My sisters were 5 & 6 years older than me and besides listening to bands like The Beatles and Rolling Stones, etc when they first emerged on the scene in the early 60's (I remember seeing them both on Ed Sullivan, and The Doors, too, later), they worked for a little venue in nearby Torrance, CA, called The Bank. They would go out and pass out flyers for upcoming shows, etc. at the beach and around school and such in return for free admission to the shows. They actually saw Pink Floyd there on their first US tour in 1968, I remember them talking about it the next day....Many of the bands who played The Bank also played The Fillmore and The Family Dog, including Big Brother & The Holding Company, Quicksilver Messenger Service, etc. So yep, you got it right, Atavachron. I didn't know you'd grown up in SF then, we visited every year on the way to spend summers at my great-aunt's place just north of Mendocino. Interesting times to observe!
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17506 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 08:51 |
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Not intended as such ... but a lot of the comments about "psych" this and that are becoming a sort of cartoon like reality that I'm not sure is helping the music not only look better, but also get more respect. I will re-iterate that what scares me mostly, is that Ken and his Merry Pranksters, are getting a lot more love for their work, and the folks in the rock world/section are still kissing and licking lollipops hoping to grow up and getting some well deserved attention. The most "respect" we get is from folks like you and others here, however, because of our inability to create something SOLID and WELL STATED, instead of a definition that is for the zog'rs of the world (never liked the word lemmings, I guess!), so that the music can finally get some respect and attention to its detail ... a lot of it, deserves that attention ... but we, as horrible historians and students, are not capable of elevating the music ... we constantly lower it, and continually thinking that Mosh is just putting you all down, he is trying hard to intellectually challenge all of you to find a better way to help this becomes a solid music design within the history of music ... instead, we go for top ten singles and ignore the albums and the actual "work" that any band has to offer. So, bands like YES are history because of CTTE but total merde when it comes to the rest of their cannon and history ... and that is insulting and very detrimental to any creative person out there ... how would you like to spend 50 years of your life creating music and singing it, and then be told the day before you die, that it's all merde for the illiterate! I would do what Picasso did ... brought out a finger and say ... I did it! You didn't! Please look at it on the larger sense ... you are separating the example on purpose, and making a point of separating things for the sake of not getting anywhere, specially when you think it's personal. I have nothing but respect for many of you folks, even if I needle and fart on many of them ... you do know that when you get old, it's harder to control the farts, right? Ohhh ... you'll know that soon enough!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Snicolette
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2018 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 6039 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 09:36 |
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From what I know, AFlowerKingCrimson (Mike) in particular actually has a pretty wide range of exposure to music and wasn't just raised on hits. As was my own son, who is 26, you can't judge ears by their age. Everyone's experience is unique to them, hence their music palate and frames of reference.
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Neu!mann
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: January 21 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 09:58 |
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Tuxedomoon +3. I see your Pere Ubu, and raise you Chrome (Damon Edge, Helios Creed...giants among men)
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"we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini
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2dogs
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Joined: December 03 2011 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 705 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 10:56 |
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Oh I love Chrome but am not going to get all upset if this site isn't willing to label them "prog".
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"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 5986 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 11:12 |
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Here in PA there are a lot of groups/artists of the Seventies which never consider themselves Prog or even near to prog.
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18253 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 11:28 |
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Now you're my lawyer.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18253 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 11:29 |
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As Forest Gump might say "prog is as prog does."
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patrickq
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 18 2015 Location: the New England Status: Offline Points: 508 |
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Posted: July 31 2019 at 11:29 |
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How do you discover whether a suggested artist has been “cleared”? |
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The Dark Elf wrote: