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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ She's telling you she was raised in a Psych hotbed.   So did I, I grew up in San Francisco in the 60s & 70s.   It doesn't get more psychedelic than that (heck I lived a block from Janis and next door to Santana, literally).   When you've lived and listened to the music from the inside out, things become more clear regarding impact and influence.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the term progressive rock.

I first heard this term when FM stations in the states started playing whole album sides instead of singles, bands that made albums that catered to this format were called "Progressive Rock Bands". This applied to The Beatles, the Moody Blues, Deep Purple, Pink Floyd, Allman Brothers, The Who, Procol Harum, The Doors, "Electric Ladyland" album etc

The term "Progressive Rock" later sort of morphed under the guidance of a younger generation and began to apply only to certain British Bands such as Yes, ELP, King Crimson etc. The rest is history.

Agreed, Atavachron probably remembers that there were names bandied about like "Classical Rock," "Raga Rock," "Art Rock," etc before "Progressive Rock," was kind of settled on as the descriptive, as it was happening.
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Psychedelic rock was huge, far bigger than prog ever was even in prog's popular heyday.   It still is, for crying out loud.   The Doors, Hendrix and Pink Floyd (yes Floyd was a psych band) are still far more popular than ELP or Yes or Tull.   Zappa, the Nice, GG&F, most certainly did evolve from Psych, if not in style than in spirit
The Doors were proto prog also. Aside from Pink Floyd who I consider prog no psych band was as big as ELP, Yes, Genesis, JT etc. Prog in it's hey day was most certainly bigger than psych. Look up album sales. The term psych became more well known than the term prog but that's starting to change. 

Prog had a brief and glorious moment and did top the Charts, but the staying power of classic 60s Psych outdoes 70s prog.   Ask someone on the street if they've heard of the Doors, Hendrix, Janis Joplin, or the Dead and almost all will say "Of course" or "Yeah my Dad used to like those guys".   Then ask about ELP, Gentle Giant, or even Genesis and they probably won't even know 80s Genesis let alone the prog era version.



Agree to disagree. In the 80's Genesis had three multi platinum selling albums(and one a little later bringing their total up to four). Invisible Touch sold six million. So no, you are incorrect sir. If you just go by San Francisco then I would possibly agree. Then again age might be a factor too but I bet just as many people know Genesis and Pink Floyd(if not more so)and RUSH than Janis Joplin and the other psych bands. GD aren't really known as just a psych band anyway. Same thing with PF. What other psych album besides the first Doors album sold 6 million copies? Then you also have to contend with Kansas and Rush who also have multiple platinum prog albums. What psych band sold out multiple times for three nights in a row at MSG and the spectrum in Philly? It wasn't Pink Floyd it was that little band who wouldn't take no for an answer. ;) So between Floyd, Rush, Kansas, JT and Yes(and even Genesis) prog pretty much wipes the floor with psych as far as album sales goes and people knowing about those bands. That's just the way it is. Album sales don't lie.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 30 2019 at 21:41
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Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the term progressive rock.

I first heard this term when FM stations in the states started playing whole album sides instead of singles, bands that made albums that catered to this format were called "Progressive Rock Bands". This applied to The Beatles, the Moody Blues, Deep Purple, Pink Floyd, Allman Brothers, The Who, Procol Harum, The Doors, "Electric Ladyland" album etc

The term "Progressive Rock" later sort of morphed under the guidance of a younger generation and began to apply only to certain British Bands such as Yes, ELP, King Crimson etc. The rest is history.

Agreed, Atavachron probably remembers that there were names bandied about like "Classical Rock," "Raga Rock," "Art Rock," etc before "Progressive Rock," was kind of settled on as the descriptive, as it was happening.

None of that takes away from the fact you had progressive music and music with progressive elements around the same time as psych. Only labels came later. I don't usually quote outside sources but will this time. Here's a quote from wikipedia: "Pet Sounds and Sgt. Pepper's, with their lyrical unity, extended structure, complexity, eclecticism, experimentalism, and influences derived from classical music forms, are largely viewed as beginnings in the progressive rock genre." Another example is the first MOI album which I often hear referred to as an early "prog" album. Frank would probably be insulted if you tried to lump him in with psychedelia. :P Ok, in reality he probably wouldn't lose any sleep over it but at the very least he would disagree with you. ;)


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 30 2019 at 22:57
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Santana. Progressive for its integration and synthesis of Latin rhythms, blues and jazz-fusion with a rock foundation. There was nothing remotely comparable to Santana in the late 60s/early 70s. There really still isn't.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the term progressive rock.

I first heard this term when FM stations in the states started playing whole album sides instead of singles, bands that made albums that catered to this format were called "Progressive Rock Bands". This applied to The Beatles, the Moody Blues, Deep Purple, Santana, Pink Floyd, Allman Brothers, The Who, Mandrill, Procol Harum, The Doors, "Electric Ladyland" album etc
A lot of these bands were also called psychedelic, at the time they were not mutually exclusive terms, that comes later.

The term "Progressive Rock" later sort of morphed under the guidance of a younger generation and began to apply only to certain British bands such as Yes, ELP, King Crimson etc. The rest is history.
Excuse me for re-posting, but I fixed my original post to point out that during the time I mentioned, the terms psychedelic and progressive were not mutually exclusive terms, they may be now, but not back then.

Edited by Easy Money - July 30 2019 at 21:42
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the term progressive rock.

I first heard this term when FM stations in the states started playing whole album sides instead of singles, bands that made albums that catered to this format were called "Progressive Rock Bands". This applied to The Beatles, the Moody Blues, Deep Purple, Santana, Pink Floyd, Allman Brothers, The Who, Mandrill, Procol Harum, The Doors, "Electric Ladyland" album etc
A lot of these bands were also called psychedelic, at the time they were not mutually exclusive terms, that comes later.

The term "Progressive Rock" later sort of morphed under the guidance of a younger generation and began to apply only to certain British bands such as Yes, ELP, King Crimson etc. The rest is history.
Excuse me for re-posting, but I fixed my original post to point out that when you go back in time (late 60s to early 70s), the terms psychedelic and progressive were not mutually exclusive terms, they may be now, but not back then.

If anything that proves my point. A lot of psych was progressive. To me the Doors, Pink Floyd and a bunch of other bands were progressive. The Doors had long songs with organ solos. Same thing with the Nice. Progressive elements were in psych just like you had bands like Gong and Hawkwind and others who had psych elements. 
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Psychedelic rock was huge, far bigger than prog ever was even in prog's popular heyday.   It still is, for crying out loud.   The Doors, Hendrix and Pink Floyd (yes Floyd was a psych band) are still far more popular than ELP or Yes or Tull.   Zappa, the Nice, GG&F, most certainly did evolve from Psych, if not in style than in spirit
The Doors were proto prog also. Aside from Pink Floyd who I consider prog no psych band was as big as ELP, Yes, Genesis, JT etc. Prog in it's hey day was most certainly bigger than psych. Look up album sales. The term psych became more well known than the term prog but that's starting to change. 

Prog had a brief and glorious moment and did top the Charts, but the staying power of classic 60s Psych outdoes 70s prog.   Ask someone on the street if they've heard of the Doors, Hendrix, Janis Joplin, or the Dead and almost all will say "Of course" or "Yeah my Dad used to like those guys".   Then ask about ELP, Gentle Giant, or even Genesis and they probably won't even know 80s Genesis let alone the prog era version
Agree to disagree. In the 80's Genesis had three multi platinum selling albums(and one a little later bringing their total up to four). Invisible Touch sold six million. So no, you are incorrect sir. If you just go by San Francisco then I would possibly agree. Then again age might be a factor too but I bet just as many people know Genesis and Pink Floyd(if not more so)than Janis Joplin and the other psych bands. GD aren't really known as just a psych band anyway. Same thing with PF. What other psych album besides the first Doors album sold 6 million copies? Then you also have to contend with Kansas and Rush who also have multiple platinum prog albums. So between Floyd, Rush, Kansas, JT and Yes(and even Genesis) prog pretty much wipes the floor with psych as far as album sales goes and people knowing about those bands. That's just the way it is. Album sales don't lie.

Okay when Oliver Stone makes a movie about Rush or Kansas, we'll talk.   Until then let's give the artists that made a true cultural and musical difference the credit they're due.  

Take a poll on the street.   I will if you will.   I reeeaaaalllly doubt Genesis or ELP or Kansas will beat out the classic 60s psych bands.   Besides, when has a discussion about style & influence ever been about sales?   If you ask someone what Cream were, assuming they know popular music, they may say a "rock band", "blues rock", "heavy blues", whatever.   But in fact, at that time, Cream were as much a psych rock band as anything else.   Psychedelic rock is largely what allowed the freedom rock musicians had in that era, leading to progressive rock despite the fact that the two styles were quite different.   It didn't come from Blues or Jazz or Folk or classical or standard rock 'n roll.   The level of musical liberties taken in that period certainly wasn't coming from 'Like a Rolling Stone', 'Help', or 'Surfin Safari'.   




Edited by Atavachron - July 30 2019 at 21:52
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Glenn Branca meets all the qualifications for post-rock. Since it's sort of proto-post-rock shouldn't proto-prog be extended to other subgenres instead of just 60s stuff that launched the first wave?

This could be extended to proto-prog electronic with artists such as Walter Carlos, Raymond Scott etc

Proto-prog folk: Godz

I'm sure i could come up with more

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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Psychedelic rock was huge, far bigger than prog ever was even in prog's popular heyday.   It still is, for crying out loud.   The Doors, Hendrix and Pink Floyd (yes Floyd was a psych band) are still far more popular than ELP or Yes or Tull.   Zappa, the Nice, GG&F, most certainly did evolve from Psych, if not in style than in spirit
The Doors were proto prog also. Aside from Pink Floyd who I consider prog no psych band was as big as ELP, Yes, Genesis, JT etc. Prog in it's hey day was most certainly bigger than psych. Look up album sales. The term psych became more well known than the term prog but that's starting to change. 

Prog had a brief and glorious moment and did top the Charts, but the staying power of classic 60s Psych outdoes 70s prog.   Ask someone on the street if they've heard of the Doors, Hendrix, Janis Joplin, or the Dead and almost all will say "Of course" or "Yeah my Dad used to like those guys".   Then ask about ELP, Gentle Giant, or even Genesis and they probably won't even know 80s Genesis let alone the prog era version
Agree to disagree. In the 80's Genesis had three multi platinum selling albums(and one a little later bringing their total up to four). Invisible Touch sold six million. So no, you are incorrect sir. If you just go by San Francisco then I would possibly agree. Then again age might be a factor too but I bet just as many people know Genesis and Pink Floyd(if not more so)than Janis Joplin and the other psych bands. GD aren't really known as just a psych band anyway. Same thing with PF. What other psych album besides the first Doors album sold 6 million copies? Then you also have to contend with Kansas and Rush who also have multiple platinum prog albums. So between Floyd, Rush, Kansas, JT and Yes(and even Genesis) prog pretty much wipes the floor with psych as far as album sales goes and people knowing about those bands. That's just the way it is. Album sales don't lie.

Okay when Oliver Stone makes a movie about Rush or Kansas, we'll talk.   Until then let's give the artists that made a true cultural and musical difference the credit they're due.  

Take a poll on the street.   I will if you will.   I reeeaaaalllly doubt Genesis or ELP or Kansas will beat out the classic 60s psych bands.   Besides, when has a discussion about style & influence ever been about sales?   If you ask someone what Cream were, assuming they know popular music, they may say a "rock band", "blues rock", "heavy blues", whatever.   But in fact, at that time, Cream were as much a psych rock band as anything else.   Psychedelic rock is largely what allowed the freedom rock musicians had in that era, leading to progressive rock despite the fact that the two styles were quite different.   It didn't come from Blues or Jazz or Folk or classical or standard rock 'n roll.   The level of musical liberties taken in that period certainly wasn't coming from 'Like a Rolling Stone', 'Help', or 'Surfin Safari'.   



The Doors is just one example. Bohemian Rhapsody was a prog song and a movie. Yes and Rush have had movies also(concert films but it doesn't matter). Other than spinal tap(who weren't a real band) no metal bands have a had movie so that isn't a good argument. 

I don't have to take a poll on the street. The number of people stopping me telling me they are also a fan is enough for me when I wore my Rush t shirt. No psych band has a bigger fanbase of real fans than Rush. No one. 

The inspiration of psych was mostly drugs and maybe some folk music. For progressive, prog, art rock etc it was mostly jazz and classical and maybe some folk. Sure, some of them did some drugs but their musical aspirations were higher than just making music to trip out to.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 30 2019 at 22:00
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an interesting notion that perhasp soem find interesting to riff on.. .. one I really wanted to get into back in the day...but I had my fingers in so many pies I just didn't have the time to get into.

Prog-folk...  and the lack of American folk contained within that.  Perhaps the Dead could have fit in there.. but a band that really could have fit that even better..  anyone?  The Band.

if an english group did this.. or an album like The Big Pink.. more advanced musically than many of the English folkies that reside in Folk Prog...they'd be in the site in a heartbeat.. but an American band and we know well the subconscious bias that exists for American bands and prog.
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Ah yes...Prog Folk and what is kind of referred to these days collectively as "Americana," perhaps. Oddly, first husband produced an LP in 1977, that we called "Prog Folk,"(I have proof! and not Tom Kelly, who is decidedly progressive), even in its time.  But it did not have the same US roots as The Band did.  Or Folk Prog, if you will.  Love The Band and Robbie Robertson, in particular, who kept an office at The Village Recorder when I did, and often held the door for me, coming into work.  Right you are, as usual, Micky.  And what about Neil Young's "Broken Arrow?"  Kind of in that vein as well.
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amen sista....  about to head off to try to grab some shut eye... but I'd be curious if this proceeds.  I have always had a good relationship with the Prog Folkies.. especially Bob..  and Ken and Hugues but had only touched on this with Bob but not Ken or Hugues.  Curious to hear their thoughts if they pop in.  Granted these days.. the days of real movement with the site are pretty much over.  Really hasn't been a wide site movement since .. well.. I think I pulled the RPI job off.. but would be nice perhaps to see if the Folkies are open to perhaps expanding the parameters of what is generally considered prog-folk.. ie... English folk...
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:


The inspiration of psych was mostly drugs and maybe some folk music. For progressive, prog, art rock etc it was mostly jazz and classical and maybe some folk. Sure, some of them did some drugs but their musical aspirations were higher than just making music to trip out to.
Psych was termed as such because of psychedelic drugs.  But the actual origins of the movement (and the music) were (yes, Timothy Leary's experiments with mind-expanding drugs)...but truly an intellectual and peace movement, which is lost to many who weren't there.  I didn't do a lot of drugs (I know, you're laughing, but it's true), there was a parallel movement of "naturalism," that happened at the same time that led to the organic foods/ecological movements...and being at the tail end of psychedelia, was what I latched onto, but still enjoyed the sound and the evocative emotions of it and then, what ensued later, borne of the creativity of the musicians of the time and those that followed.
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Always enjoy our discourse, Micky!
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I vote for XTC !
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Originally posted by SoundsofSeasons SoundsofSeasons wrote:

I vote for XTC !

They should at least be in here for prog related. One of their members is now in Big Big Train. 

Maybe Tears for Fears also. That might be a stretch but I know a lot of prog fans like them.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by SoundsofSeasons SoundsofSeasons wrote:

I vote for XTC !

They should at least be in here for prog related. One of their members is now in Big Big Train. 

Maybe Tears for Fears also. That might be a stretch but I know a lot of prog fans like them.
 

That would open the door to Simple Minds , China Crisis , Propaganda, OMD ( they used a Mellotron once!) and a whole raft of other eighties bands that were basically just really good bands but had little to do with prog . Simple Minds were fans of Genesis so perhaps that's enough to get them in? Wink

XTC went out on a limb with their music to a much greater extent I believe although I haven't heard everything they did. Again I am very surprised they are not included when Talk Talk ( a much less interesting eighties band imo) are included?
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Psychedelic rock was huge, far bigger than prog ever was even in prog's popular heyday.   It still is, for crying out loud.   The Doors, Hendrix and Pink Floyd (yes Floyd was a psych band) are still far more popular than ELP or Yes or Tull.   Zappa, the Nice, GG&F, most certainly did evolve from Psych, if not in style than in spirit
The Doors were proto prog also. Aside from Pink Floyd who I consider prog no psych band was as big as ELP, Yes, Genesis, JT etc. Prog in it's hey day was most certainly bigger than psych. Look up album sales. The term psych became more well known than the term prog but that's starting to change. 

Prog had a brief and glorious moment and did top the Charts, but the staying power of classic 60s Psych outdoes 70s prog.   Ask someone on the street if they've heard of the Doors, Hendrix, Janis Joplin, or the Dead and almost all will say "Of course" or "Yeah my Dad used to like those guys".   Then ask about ELP, Gentle Giant, or even Genesis and they probably won't even know 80s Genesis let alone the prog era version
Agree to disagree. In the 80's Genesis had three multi platinum selling albums(and one a little later bringing their total up to four). Invisible Touch sold six million. So no, you are incorrect sir. If you just go by San Francisco then I would possibly agree. Then again age might be a factor too but I bet just as many people know Genesis and Pink Floyd(if not more so)than Janis Joplin and the other psych bands. GD aren't really known as just a psych band anyway. Same thing with PF. What other psych album besides the first Doors album sold 6 million copies? Then you also have to contend with Kansas and Rush who also have multiple platinum prog albums. So between Floyd, Rush, Kansas, JT and Yes(and even Genesis) prog pretty much wipes the floor with psych as far as album sales goes and people knowing about those bands. That's just the way it is. Album sales don't lie.

Okay when Oliver Stone makes a movie about Rush or Kansas, we'll talk.   Until then let's give the artists that made a true cultural and musical difference the credit they're due.  

Take a poll on the street.   I will if you will.   I reeeaaaalllly doubt Genesis or ELP or Kansas will beat out the classic 60s psych bands.   Besides, when has a discussion about style & influence ever been about sales?   If you ask someone what Cream were, assuming they know popular music, they may say a "rock band", "blues rock", "heavy blues", whatever.   But in fact, at that time, Cream were as much a psych rock band as anything else.   Psychedelic rock is largely what allowed the freedom rock musicians had in that era, leading to progressive rock despite the fact that the two styles were quite different.   It didn't come from Blues or Jazz or Folk or classical or standard rock 'n roll.   The level of musical liberties taken in that period certainly wasn't coming from 'Like a Rolling Stone', 'Help', or 'Surfin Safari'.   


I don't have to take a poll on the street. The number of people stopping me telling me they are also a fan is enough for me when I wore my Rush t shirt. No psych band has a bigger fanbase of real fans than Rush. No one. 

correction. this may be true where you live, but in Germany Rush never were a big deal


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Points: 9233 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2019 at 01:44
I feel like everyone is just now throwing out bands they can argue/expand the definition of "progressive rock" with, simply for a reason to have more content on the site to debate over, lol.

I disagree vehemently on Grateful Dead being on PA or considered progressive in any fashion. That is the definition of a blind squirrel finding a nut (in band form) to me. Almost like everyone wants to blend Psych, Proto, etc. together and start blending the "grey" areas versus being so black and white (both have their faults IMHO).

I.E. "Having your PA cake and eating it too".

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

It's that old discussion..again. What is and isn't 'real prog rock'.
And it will go one for another 7.5 years or 75 depending on the life of the forum.
;)

Exactly. We'll still be here in 7.5 years though, I have a theory LOL.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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