Brexit: A change of heart??

So, we're beating America 9 - 7?  Excellent!

With the U.S. political landscape turned to a muddy quagmire, I've had little time to concentrate on Brexit news; however, I thought you Brits would appreciate a bit of humor (albeit, Andy Serkis can be downright ominous sometimes)....

[QUOTE=micky]weeks.. months...

Chaser wrote: [QUOTE=micky]weeks.. months... Trump is a temporary problem we have...his successor will clean up his messes    yours is an existential problem. There really is no way out is there short of admitting this was one huge mistake and revoking Art. 50 and suffering the political and social consequences but avoiding the economic ones which is what is going to hurt and hurt badly.    As a Brit I'm not going to claim to be an expert on American politics, but I see Trump as the symptom and not as the cause of the disease.  Yes, you may get rid of Trump (although I don't expect him to go quietly), but unless America deals with the root causes of the discontent that gave rise to Trump in the first place then Trump will only be replaced by someone or something much worse.   The fact is that this is a problem across the western world at the moment.  It certainly is part of the reason for the Brexit vote in the UK, and Europe cannot be too smug either, as populism is rife across Europe at the moment.   Globalisation is good for the metropolitan elites and the super rich, but it does very little for post industrial communities, who see their factories disappear to low cost countries abroad and their jobs get replaced by cheap foreign labour.  While money poured into London, the left behind communities in the north of England and the midlands saw their communities left to rot.  They voted for change and change was Brexit.  If you've got nothing anyway then you've got nothing to lose.   I see the same story across the rust belt of America.  Post industrial communities abandoned and left to rot.  They wanted their voices to be heard and they made sure that they were.   I am glad that we voted for Brexit.  It showed all of the deep seated problems in our country in all their ugliness in a way that can no longer be ignored.   We cannot go on as we are.  We cannot continue to live off the vast wealth generated by the City of London whilst other parts of our country go to rack and ruin, exacerbated by ten years of austerity that has driven communities to the edge of existence.   As for the idea that we can simply revoke Article 50 and pretend that all of this never happened, not even the most ardent remainers actually believe that fantasy.  The genie is now firmly out of the bottle and neither prophecies of impending doomsday nor the desperate pleading of the liberal elites is going to put it back in the bottle any time soon.

An exceptional post. I have made many similar arguments on varying political threads here on PA, but this is by far the most articulate I have ever seen.

Unfortunately, Micky clings to the fantastical belief that getting rid of Trumpalot with a Democrat will automatically cure the disease, in much the same way as Remainers believe a second referendum in our country will bring us all together again.

These are dangerous fantasies which ignore totally the reasons behind the way traditional working class communities voted.

record collector wrote: I'm really not a big fan of EU and I'm sorry to say i'm living in a country which is a member of the EU. It's a matter of fact... I don't think EU exist year 2035 or 2040.

Edited by Lewian - February 04 2019 at 10:11

Chaser wrote: Globalisation is good for the metropolitan elites and the super rich, but it does very little for post industrial communities, who see their factories disappear to low cost countries abroad and their jobs get replaced by cheap foreign labour.  While money poured into London, the left behind communities in the north of England and the midlands saw their communities left to rot.  They voted for change and change was Brexit.

I want to respond specifically about Midlands. As I mentioned earlier, the company I work for is the holding company of Jaguar Land Rover. They have factories in Midlands from what I know. Their business in Europe is going to be badly affected in the event of a hard Brexit. I love the look of a Jaguar but good luck convincing European customers that it's still worth the money after a high customs duty cost is added to the sticker price vis a vis Audi or BMW.

You say the Midlands are rotting and as an outsider I have to believe you. However, is the cause globalisation or is it the neo liberal policies followed by the Tories and New Labour? There was perhaps no way other than a mad disruption like Brexit for the working class to send its message. But the question is are British politicians, except those who seek to manipulate such sentiments to gain a votebank, really listening? Further, in the short run, reversing globalisation may likely prove detrimental to Midlands. I am sure jobs at a luxury car marker factory pay more than agricultural jobs and the like.

Edited by rogerthat - February 05 2019 at 01:30

Chaser wrote:  ... The fact is that this is a problem across the western world at the moment.  It certainly is part of the reason for the Brexit vote in the UK, and Europe cannot be too smug either, as populism is rife across Europe at the moment. ...

Lewian wrote: ... As much as I'm pro EU, I think the introduction of the Euro was a big, big mistake; look how the inability to control a country's own currency pitted the Greeks against the Germans and the Germans against the Greeks and how populists all over Europe (now Italy) use the dependency that is created by a joint currency with still coexisting local economic, financial and fiscal policies for their anti-EU propaganda.  ...

rogerthat wrote: A single currency without a fiscal union, let alone a single political state, was always going to be a disaster.  I hold no brief for America as someone who is neither American nor European, but given how much Europeans pat themselves on their backs for their superior intelligence vis a vis 'dumb' Americans, I have to ask how the f**k do you guys (to be clear a figurative you) still defend the Eurozone the way it exists now?And if you agree it is flawed, why do you still not want to do something about it?  And if it is going to be impossible to do something about it in spite of all the best intentions, maybe it's best to just go back to the old currencies however much that would be embarrassing not to mention extremely expensive and cumbersome in the short run? In the end, the Euro was just an ill thought out attempt driven mainly by Germany and France to create a new currency to counter the US hegemony.  And to that end, it has largely worked but at what cost to the 'southern' half of the Eurozone.

Absolutely spot on, and I agree with everything you say here.

I support the idea of Europe, but not THIS Europe. This project driven by political idealism rather than pragmatism.

The Euro has been a disaster for Europe. Greece should go back to the Drachma. Italy should go back to the Lira. Spain and Portugal should also abandon the Euro. Maybe Germany, Belgium, and Luxembourg should keep the Euro if they want, plus one or two other countries, but the rest should abandon it.

Of course the Euro was introduced not only to create a currency to rival the dollar, but also to force european countries into closer union by means of a common currency.

Thus countries that were ill suited for such a currency union were persuaded to abandon their own currency and adopt the Euro for entirely political reasons that were often in opposition to that country's own interests.

We need a Europe of proud independent nations working together in friendship and collaboration, not this attempt to subsume national identity into some pan European identity at all costs.

The EU is yesterday's solution to yesterday's problems.

As for us in the UK... When the ship is sinking it's best to head for the life raft, and the EU ship is now holed below the water line.