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Why such animus towards Christian prog?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ForestFriend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2018 at 13:01
I think it depends on how the lyrics are written. There's a difference between writing about the philosophical beliefs of a religion and writing about a religion. Singing about how you need to turn to Jesus to be saved is going to alienate people who don't believe in him, plus it's simply not an interesting understanding of what the religion teaches in the first place. I'm not saying that all Christian bands are like this, although looking through some Neal Morse lyrics, he's definitely got some like that. Something like Topographic Oceans, on the other hand, contains very few references to mythological figures. It's inspired by Hinduism, but you don't get reminded that Vishnu is your savior or anything like that. I think they try to make it a bit more universal; the lyrics are about people and their actions, rather than deities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2018 at 13:16
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hell yeah man..... that is what we have been missing... TRUMP PROG!!!!!  Spouting christian values and the the inherent hypocracy that goes with the actions of  those those spout them ...

I think the issue is that tagging oneself as "Christian Prog" (or any other religious affiliation for that matter) is an inherently constraining proposition, and one you can't deviate from to find fresh creativity. Kansas is a prime example of a band that had a Christian ethos (particularly the works of Kerry Livgren), but one that didn't necessarily spout dogma. As a listener, you could take from the lyrics what you wished and not feel it necessary to wash the Jesus Juice off your speakers.

Another example outside the prog vein would be Cat Stevens. One could tell through his several albums in the 70s that he was on a spiritual journey, and much of his lyrics had a profundity and an ever-searching quality that coincided with a confused generation's own journey in the muddled times after the Vietnam War. But only once did Stevens really indicate his Islamic intentions ("The Boy With A Moon And Star On His Head" -- itself a masterful composition) -- there were more pronounced hints at Buddhism (the album titles Catch Bull at Four and Buddha and the Chocolate Box, for instance). Once he proclaimed himself Muslim, he hit a brick wall. He has returned after a few decades, but like nearly every artist of his age, no one is really interested in anything but the albums Tea for the Tillerman, Teaser and the Firecat, Catch Bull at Four, etc. I'm quite sure fans at his concerts are not yelling, "Hey Cat, play us a Muslim song!" 


Edited by The Dark Elf - November 04 2018 at 13:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2018 at 16:13
Animosity towards "Christian prog" is nil novo sub sole. Just part of the daily portion of spiritual warfare. This has one positive side: there are people in the prog community who listen to "Christian prog" anyway. PA is paying these artists a service: Christian prog artists gain more respect from the secular audience than from people in the Christian scene, who pick their likings from the parallel universe of "Christian music", in which names like Casting Crowns or Michael W. Smith are top of the bill: never original, seldom annoying, often mediocre, always ad usum Delphini, as I wrote some years before. I have had the feeling that prog is shunned by most Christians more than once. 

There is quite a difference in lyrics as well. Neal Morse can be very preachy (nevertheless I like his lyrics), Iona are not.

Next question: how would this forum react to Islamic prog, if such a thing came ever into existence?



Edited by someone_else - November 04 2018 at 16:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Squonk19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2018 at 17:14
Actually, prog music is about the only genre that 'Christian' music has any chance of getting me thinking about a non-secular approach to life. By its nature, the prog I love is complex, atmospheric, thoughtful and 'spiritual' in a more general way.

The only two I have any time for is Iona - who were able (in most tracks anyway) to be subtle and ambiguous with their lyrics and wrap them with Dave's superb arrangements, Troy's celtic pipes and Joanne's ethereal tones - and Neal Morse, who is now much more upfront (and yes, a bit preachy at times), but who has quite a handle of personal suffering and all those experiences that we all have at times, regardless of your viewpoint. However, I do prefer it when he shrouds it more in the execution - such as with Spock Beard's Snow, or The Great Nothing, rather than One and Testimony etc. 'Wind at My Back' still gets the hairs rising on the back of my neck, despite me being a cynical old codger these days!

A lot of great prog music has a 'spiritual' layer to it, and not just the likes of Anderson/Yes or Gong/Hillage doing their usual uplifting stuff. So while a lot of non-prog 'Christian' music is frankly dreadful, let's not get too sniffy about the few examples of it in prog rock that can work regardless of your holistic view of the Universe. If a piece of music moves you - it's hitting a spot somewhere beyond the somatic response level.

Right.... Time for a bit of NIB to give Old Nick a bit of air-time!   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2018 at 18:49
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

"Why such animus towards Christian prog?"


Because people are scared......

I would contend that for people who have seriously contemplated religion, found it utterly lacking both spiritually and intellectually, and abandoned it altogether as man-made mythological nonsense preying upon fear and ignorance, the exact opposite is true.

But hey, if you require imaginary support to live a good and honest life, then by all means surround yourself with totems and relics and crucifixes. As far as Christian prog, most of the themes are trite and forced, but if the instrumental sections are good, one can ignore the hokum. Like with the album The Master and Musician by Phil Keaggy, for instance. No lyrics, no preaching, great instrumentals, I listen. 

Listen, I'm not going to get into a battle about religion and what I believe or don't, but comments like "But hey, if you require imaginary support to live a good and honest life, then by all means surround yourself with totems and relics and crucifixes."......Is flat out wrong to insinuate that's what I need to live a good life. Just because you don't understand or have the inner power to either believe, understand or try, does not mean that those of us that do, need imaginary support....It's only imaginary to you.

As far as the music, label it what you want and the label is what creates the issue. Clearly people have a problem with "Christian prog" but really not "Hindu prog", whatever. Just because an artist might mention Jesus in his song, all of a sudden creates a volcano storm of negativity or "mythological nonsense"..but mention Buddah or another non-Christian deity, God or supreme being and we have no issues.

People are scared.....Me, I can listen to all of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2018 at 19:23
Because generally it's pretty awful musically and lyrically.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thwok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2019 at 10:17
First thing is, I'm a devout Christian. That might be a deal breaker for some people; I'm okay with that. Second thing is, prog and metal in their many forms, are my favorite types of music. Just speaking personally, I don't avoid prog. PA is my FAVORITE website. I love music that's creative and combines elements in different ways, no matter what genre. I'm also a Casting Crowns fan, although most "CCM" bores me, so I will defend them. They're the most successful Christian band around. It's because they, along with a couple of regular collaborators, are the best songwriters in their genre.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2019 at 10:38
I don't particularly like to label music by religion. For example, they don't label Jon Anderson as "Syncretic Prog" but he's essentially pushing that. I've posted on two early Christian bands that I like along with numerous secular bands, and people here were generally cool about it. If you like Christian prog, then voice your opinion. But, others here can and should certainly be encouraged to voice theirs. Just try to be respectful methinks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2019 at 13:39
Originally posted by Cylli Kat Cylli Kat wrote:

I've noticed that there are some here that detest any whiff of Christianity in prog music.
Saying things like "I don't want their religion shoved down my throat!", etc.

<snip>

I guess I don't understand the animus and backlash over Neal Morse, Iona/Dave Bainbridge, Ajalon, S91, Supernal Endgame or any other "Christian" prog. Confused

<snip>


Is there really that much animus?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2dogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2019 at 08:04
The idea of prog rock with Christian lyrics doesn't appeal to my imagination but I have been listening to Tangerine Dream's Dante albums Inferno, Purgatorio and Paradiso and bought a cheap prose version of The Divine Comedy with Dore's illustrations for my Kindle to better appreciate the concepts. I'm not yet all the way through the Inferno part but it's truly nightmarish and horrifying Shocked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2019 at 08:45
I'm not a Christian (read 'pussy agnostic') but I can recommend a couple of overtly christian themed albums that would appeal to any music fan: The Whirlwind by Transatlantic and The Ten Commandments by Salamander. But that's nothing, wait till you hear Non Binary Vegan Prog....Shocked


Edited by ExittheLemming - July 08 2019 at 08:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2019 at 09:28
In the New Testament, specifically Acts and the epistles, it’s made clear that to be a good Christian is to be persecuted in one way or another. So I think it’s natural to perceive the prog-fan community’s lack of excitement over Christian prog as hatred (or some synonym for “hatred”).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argo2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2019 at 10:02
For me one of the things with Christian music in general is it's not a style of music. It's rock, pop, metal, whatever with Christian lyrics.  Gospel is a little different because the are certain characteristics & harmonies that are unique to the genera. When referring to a musical style, you should be able to listen to the music without lyrics & identify what type of music it is, ( jazz, rock, county...)

 As far as Christian rock/ prog goes I don't really have a problem with it unless I feel like I'm being clubbed over the head with the message. 


Edited by Argo2112 - July 08 2019 at 10:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2019 at 12:09
I'm an agnostic atheist/ soft atheist/ negative atheist, or call me just an atheist or agnostic, or whatever term. I was raised going to church and married a Born gain Christian. I still rather think of myself as a cultural Anglican Christian.

I love lots of religious music inspired by different faiths. There's a lot of "classical" (to use the term broadly) music of the Christian ilk that I love (Tallis has always been a particular favourite of mine). I love choral music, chants, Christian inspired jazz and plenty of Christian folk and psychedelic music. That said, I wouldn't say that I'm a fan of Christian Prog, especially that which draws on a form of American fundamentalism and a vein of "Christian contemporary music". It's not just the subject matter, it's the music I've heard which reminds me of people like Michael W. Smith. Since Transatlantic was mentioned and Dream Theater and Neal Morse, I dislike it musically. I really disliked the kind of worship music that is played in many contemporary evangelical churches, but love the old hymns such as "Jerusalem"(words by William Blake). There is lot of really lovely spiritual music out there, and I tend to dislike much which comes across as really preachy to me, particularly in an American bible thumping way which I quite often associate with all sorts of bad things.

To me this sounds much more deeply spiritual and profound than the likes of Neal Morse.



And I love music such as this:



I do find religions quite ridiculous, but there is something of the traditions that still appeal to me. By the way, I did a little "60s and up Christian themed albums" topic about nine year ago (edited my posts as the old way I would embed videos caused flash objects to try to install): http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72354 Some lovely music in that topic (some broken links and vids).

Edited by Logan - July 08 2019 at 12:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2019 at 14:26
Here's the issue! In fantasy literature Christians were leaders (CS Lewis, Tolkien, Rowling). In rock, these days Christian bands are followers. You like Dream Theater? Listen to so and so. You like Metallica? Try such and such. That's the problem. There are a few early exceptions. Every band should try to define their own sound. The less overly dramatic, the better. The more philosophically interesting, the better. The less cookie cutter, the better. The more dynamic, innovative, and ORIGINAL, the better ... I digress.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2019 at 14:30
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Because generally it's pretty awful musically and lyrically.
 
Sadly you are right here, most of this stuff is simply embarrassing..
 
The only band I really love in this direction is IONA, simply Music sung to God instead about him..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2019 at 15:14
Personally i don't care either way. I love Christian music. I love Satanic music. I love Hindu music. Zoroastrian etc as long as i like the music itself. Lyrics have always been secondary but even so i still love to hear the philosophies of others even if they are based on orthodox dogmatic principles.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2019 at 15:23
As Nogbad said above....I haven't heard any that I like enough to get into.


ps: and I find it hard to believe that Micky is a fan of Gospel music......but I'm sure he'll see my post and claim that he is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chaser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2019 at 15:37
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

I don't particularly like to label music by religion. For example, they don't label Jon Anderson as "Syncretic Prog" but he's essentially pushing that


I agree with the thrust of this argument.

I've got no issue with music being influenced by almost anything, but I do object to the idea of labelling music according to a particular religious belief.

We all know that Jon Anderson's spiritual beliefs (Hindu, Buddhist, or eastern, I'm never completely sure what Jon's religious belief is exactly) influence his music.

I've got no issue with that, but if Jon started labelling his music as "Hindu Rock" or something then I would have an issue.

Music, or any art, should speak for itself, and shouldn't need to be labelled by the artist based on their religious beliefs.

So, I have no objection to someone creating music that's influenced by their Christianity (even though I'm an atheist), but I do object to the term "Christian Prog".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2019 at 16:18
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

^ great reply

^^ great topic OP but you sort of answered your own question there.

The examples you give are most decidely nonchristian in nature.. which do not celebrate (or ram down ones throat if you will) the greatness of God or Jesus or whatever.. but celebrate the joys of indivdual self reflection, discovery and sprituality and more importantly.. express it MUSICALLY where the lyrics are just a hanger on to the procedings.

where people get turned off is when the music is secondary to the lyrcial message which is in my experience the fault of 'christian prog'. 

To me, religion and spiritual is an individual thing for you and I to work with, and not something to expound on the public as the way to be ... I'm actually tired of "enlightened half lights", with messages that say absolutely nothing ... and will quote a book, that is known to be the worst translation of the original material ever done ... a complete corruption of the original material ... and we believe in it!

It's not animus ... it's that a lot of those folks are believing in a fantasy and idealistic something or other (that they can not even describe!), because they are not artists of the heart with the gumption to stand up and not be afraid!

There is, however, a large group of folks that are very serious about their spiritual material ... I would not consider Frank Perry's work a message about your spirituality and mine ... but it does give you the option ... can you sit through it and work with it after? I, personally, do not think that Neal Morse knows that difference. he comes off just like another guy on a pulpit ... he can see things and we can't. Thus we have to follow and buy their music!

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