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Topic ClosedThe American Political System: Can It Be Fixed?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:54
Personally, as a socialist I don't think the system we have now needs "fixing" because it is working the way it should. To blame the population for being "too ignorant" to somehow fix it by "voting in their own favor" or whatever is pure classism. The only way to see any fundamental change is if we were to change the underlying capitalist system that our political system upholds.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:01
the American political system is a beautiful thing.. and the E.C fits right into that.

It will force the Republican Party.. which in case I have been obtuse in my thoughts.. is the real problem and danger facing this country... it will force it to moderate and lose the hate and division.. or become a permanent minority out of power party.

f**k with.. or eliminate the E.C... there would be no reason to do so.. they could hope to win a plurality vote.

It will force the Replican Party to change... or die.  Either will make for a better country...

the E.C was never a problem until one of the two major parties making itself an afterthought at the national level by alienating fully 40% of the country. Thus gettting close to.. and will soon reach.. where one party has a near lock on 270 before a single vote is cast. Don't blame the system.. again.. blame the voter.. blame the party that the voters support.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:03
Are you responding to anyone or just talking
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:04
just talking  Feel free to disagree...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:05
LOL 
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:07
Well I disagree that the EC is beautiful and that it hurts the Republician party. The EC favors smaller states which are ones that typically vote Republician, if we had proportional voting, it's likely the Republicians would have even slimmer chances
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:09
Yes, it's broken. 
Yes, it can be fixed. 

Needless to say this would be a very very difficult, realistically probably impossible, task but of course it can be done. It would just require our will to do so, after discussion and debate and etc like I said, in reality this is most certainly never happening. 

Me personally? A proportional voting, 3+ party system, something done about extreme/political gerrymandering and far more open primaries. Either allowing independents in, letting them change to a party day of, something along those lines. Primaries should all be video recorded, and fully staffed. This sounds almost dumb...but it's true. The stories like 80% of Iowa precincts (or whatever it was) not being fully staffed, the 100,000+ in Brooklyn denied because they were backlogged on registration all these places not having enough ballots, pure shameful lunacy. The 60 voting stations for a 4 million person county, causing 5 hour lines? Yeah no more of that. 

This is for the voting process of course. For politics itself, the $ influence involved has to be removed. 
How on earth this could happen, no idea. Hopefully some of the above ideas, which while difficult could be done, would go a long way. 

Trying to keep things somewhat realistic. While I am for abolishing the electoral college, I see this as perhaps the most improbably feat, and ya know things have worked well for a long time with it, so it's less necessary to me to see it removed. That said I am on paper, for it. 


Edited by JJLehto - August 28 2016 at 21:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:11
^ Interesting ideas -

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:13
Nope... I don't see that....  look at the control of the House.  In actuality the weighted vote of smaller red states count more than heavily populated Blue States.

Look no further than my dear Virginia..  a blue state now...  so how would proportional voting (say on congressional districts  like Ne and Me do)go..LOL 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:19
Thank you David! 
It was nice to condense random thoughts I've had all over in one postLOL
And I think such actions should be direct if needed. Like, once here someone said they agreed on how the process should be fully staffed and all that, thus "That's why we need to make sure we win" to properly fund the government and etc

I say do it via bill...can't wait for years, or have it randomly cut off with a party change, and frankly I think both parties are equally as likely to uh....take exclusionary efforts, and ya know, part of the funding problem can't be helped. The voting process for what is supposed to be the great democracy, should be fully funded, staffed, and equipped and should be done so without being tied to local budgets and etc


Edited by JJLehto - August 28 2016 at 21:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:21
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Yes, it's broken. 
Yes, it can be fixed. 

Needless to say this would be a very very difficult, realistically probably impossible, task but of course it can be done. It would just require our will to do so, after discussion and debate and etc like I said, in reality this is most certainly never happening. 

Me personally? A proportional voting, 3+ party system, something done about extreme/political gerrymandering and far more open primaries. Either allowing independents in, letting them change to a party day of, something along those lines. Primaries should all be video recorded, and fully staffed. This sounds almost dumb...but it's true. The stories like 80% of Iowa precincts (or whatever it was) not being fully staffed, the 100,000+ in Brooklyn denied because they were backlogged on registration all these places not having enough ballots, pure shameful lunacy. The 60 voting stations for a 4 million person county, causing 5 hour lines? Yeah no more of that. 

This is for the voting process of course. For politics itself, the $ influence involved has to be removed. 
How on earth this could happen, no idea. Hopefully some of the above ideas, which while difficult could be done, would go a long way. 

Trying to keep things somewhat realistic. While I am for abolishing the electoral college, I see this as perhaps the most improbably feat, and ya know things have worked well for a long time with it, so it's less necessary to me to see it removed. That said I am on paper, for it. 


agreed interesting ideas... about as much chance of happening as I would have becoming President with all the videos out there of me in drag and trying to score guys phone numbers during my Jack Daniels years...

the system is fine.... it is the rage filled self-destruction of one of our two parties that brings into focus potential 'problems' in the system. The lack of tacking important issues... bipartisanship needed to do so... the EC issues with predetermined results.  I don't blame the system.. it has worked for 200 years... I blame again the voters for allowing it and in the case of half of our fellow Americans.. encouraging it..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:24
Someday you'll have to be caught in drag picking up men to become President.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:31
LOL and would people still think our political system is broken... pfff...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 22:02
Hmmm...I still don't find putting the blame all on voters very convincing, more so in a two party system where you don't even give voters much choice. But what I see is your system does not protect voters from politicians; I guess unfettered free speech makes that difficult. Trump would have been disqualified several times by the Indian Election Commission. Speeches inciting communal unrest or making promises to specific religions are not allowed. I guess if some such code was attempted to be enforced in the US, the Supreme Court would strike it down. No seriously I think politicians are devils and people do need to be protected for them. Their words (Trump's favourite word) can and have caused much damage by misleading people or working up mob rage.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2016 at 04:06
At the risk of repeating myself (Wink), I have to say that fixing the system is both the responsibility of the parties now in place and the voters. Again, I'll state that practices like gerrymandering are encouraged or at least over looked by both parties, as they both find it a handy tool when they are in control of Congress. And voters seem to come out of the woodwork for a unique candidate like Barrack Obama for Pres. and, now, Donald Trump running in the recent Republican primary. Where were these record number of voters before they had a hero to vote for?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2016 at 12:36
Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

What would the definition of 'fixed' be in your mind? Trump and Bernie have both argued (from different vantage points) that the American political system is already 'fixed' and that's what's wrong with it.

Every political and social system in history has been this way and there's nothing magical about ours that makes it any different. A bit more tolerable maybe, but that's about all.
I had to think a bit on how to respond to this Bob, without sounding cliche. If we take the "this is the best it's going to be" route, there is both truth and fiction in that view, as we can always make something better. Our system is not perfect but we can still improve it. What we have over totalitarian systems is a certain degree of transparency in our government, and the more, the better. Is the US government totally transparent? No, and it never will be, but it still beats the hell out of a government like Cuba's.

Now, that still sounds cliched. Rats! PinchLOL


Edited by SteveG - August 29 2016 at 12:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2016 at 15:19
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Yeah.. can't agree with the basic premise.  It isn't our political system that is broken..

it is the country. 

Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington.  For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many .  Zero ideas on how to responsibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.

Gotta disagree on several counts Mick.  The last two presidential (and congressional) election cycles were the most expensive in terms of media and promotional spending, so it's hard to argue people are uninformed.  Misinformed maybe, but not uninformed.  And I don't think voters are apathetic either.  We've had a pretty consistent level of voter participation for the past forty years, 50-60%, but the partisanship has grown steadily over that same time period.  You have to go back to the last half of the 19th century to see higher levels of participation, and back then pretty much only Protestant, land-owning white men had the right to vote (more on that in a moment).  And we're certainly not ignorant, at least from a macro-view.  America today has the most well-educated populace in her history, with high-school graduation rates at a near all-time high and enrollment in higher education steadily increasing for the past century.  Partisan politics have gotten uglier over the past few years but this is certainly nothing new for us, one could argue that things were a whole lot uglier 150 years ago when we spent four years killing each other over our sharply-divided political views.

What has steadily and irreversibly changed over the past century is the diversity of the electorate, and of the population in general.  Today people of all faiths, economic classes, religions, genders and social viewpoints have the power of the ballot box, although even here there are constant attempts to dilute that diversity through gerrymandering, voter ID initiatives, intimidation and other forms of disenfranchisement.  It is not a coincidence that the my current state requires state-issued IDs and in this area the only two places to get one are DMV offices that are in white neighborhoods and off the path of public transportation.  This was not the case several years ago when state IDs were not required to vote.

The two-party, winner take all approach, funded and influenced by special interests that we have for elections is the system, and if not broken then it at least has become highly ineffective.  National parties choose the candidates, which means I can have anyone I want as President or Senator, as long as it is one of the pre-approved selections of those parties.  Super delegates didn't decide the Democratic nominee but their existence means the national party controls the nomination process except in the case of a high landslide, which will become more unlikely as our population becomes more diverse.  And we've proven time and again that there is no realistic chance of a third-party candidate, and the primary systems of many states prevent third-parties from even making it onto a ballot, so the ability to affect change through voting is a restrictive proposition at best.  And given the growing diversity of our voting population it seems likely that we will continue to see elections like this one where we play out a sick game of 'would you rather' at the polls because our outdated system is not designed to accommodate much beyond either/or choices.

"Peace is the only battle worth waging."

Albert Camus
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2016 at 15:21
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

No
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2016 at 04:35
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

No
You're too eloquent for such a brief response T. Could you please expand on your reply. Thanks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2016 at 04:46
Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:



What has steadily and irreversibly changed over the past century is the diversity of the electorate, and of the population in general.  Today people of all faiths, economic classes, religions, genders and social viewpoints have the power of the ballot box, although even here there are constant attempts to dilute that diversity through gerrymandering, voter ID initiatives, intimidation and other forms of disenfranchisement.  It is not a coincidence that the my current state requires state-issued IDs and in this area the only two places to get one are DMV offices that are in white neighborhoods and off the path of public transportation.  This was not the case several years ago when state IDs were not required to vote.

The two-party, winner take all approach, funded and influenced by special interests that we have for elections is the system, and if not broken then it at least has become highly ineffective.  National parties choose the candidates, which means I can have anyone I want as President or Senator, as long as it is one of the pre-approved selections of those parties.  Super delegates didn't decide the Democratic nominee but their existence means the national party controls the nomination process except in the case of a high landslide, which will become more unlikely as our population becomes more diverse.  And we've proven time and again that there is no realistic chance of a third-party candidate, and the primary systems of many states prevent third-parties from even making it onto a ballot, so the ability to affect change through voting is a restrictive proposition at best.  And given the growing diversity of our voting population it seems likely that we will continue to see elections like this one where we play out a sick game of 'would you rather' at the polls because our outdated system is not designed to accommodate much beyond either/or choices.

This is an excellent overview of the main problems of US political system in a nutshell, as far as I'm concerned. But what is the remedy to this Bob? Hopefully, identifying the areas of disease will lead to a cure.
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