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The American Political System: Can It Be Fixed?

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Topic: The American Political System: Can It Be Fixed?
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: The American Political System: Can It Be Fixed?
Date Posted: August 27 2016 at 12:54
In a past secondary discussion with both Lazland and Dean, I mistakenly dismissed their claims that the problems of the American political system could be fixed by replacing the current system. They are without a doubt two of PA's most intelligent members and deserve to heard out and considered, along with many astute others.

My post is a simple question that requires complex answers: Do you feel that the American political system is broken, ans if so, how would you fix? 



Replies:
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: August 27 2016 at 13:05
There's a good YouTube series that deals with this problem, here are a couple videos on it




There aren't any clear cut solutions but having votes represent the people better is a starting point


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https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 27 2016 at 14:57
No

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Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: August 27 2016 at 15:37
If a 3rd party candidate can't succeed in a year when the other options are Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump then I'd have to say "no".  The government run education system and media have too much of a vested interest in continuing to make sure the citizenry are just a bunch of obedient lever pullers.... whether they be pulling that lever for the authoritarians on the red team or the ones on the blue team.

This would explain how we got here:



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Time always wins.


Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: August 27 2016 at 17:19
What would the definition of 'fixed' be in your mind? Trump and Bernie have both argued (from different vantage points) that the American political system is already 'fixed' and that's what's wrong with it.

If you mean can our representative government be reformed so that our elected officials serve the will and interests of the majority (or at least their respective constituents), then I would say no. Unfortunately the wealthy, powerful and self-serving (not necessarily the same people, to be fair) will always find ways to exert a disproportionate level of influence over any political system, and will always benefit disproportionately. Every political and social system in history has been this way and there's nothing magical about ours that makes it any different. A bit more tolerable maybe, but that's about all.


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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."

Albert Camus


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 08:20
Yeah.. can't agree with the basic premise.  It isn't our political system that is broken..

it is the country. 

Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington.  For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many .  Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 18:19
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington.  For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many .  Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.

How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:00
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington.  For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many .  Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.

How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.

For starters, the winner takes all format of the Electoral College is problematic.  It means a party can game the system by winning a few big states, taking them much closer to 270 than the other.  Yes, apportioning college votes proportionally may make the chance of a hung verdict greater, but that is a risk worth taking because it shows the people don't like either candidate enough (something that is probably true of this election) and would convey to both parties that they need to work harder to find appropriate candidates.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:11
In fact, adding to the above point, here's an African-American voter (around 8:00) saying she MAY have thought of a Republican candidate if he/she had been a moderate rather than Trump.  A Muslim, Farah Imam, also feels conflicted between Trump and Clinton (astounding, given all the things he's said about Muslims!).  Should a president simply be picked out of candidates whom too many people dislike?  



On another note, I wonder why people never talk about PBS coverage very much because at least to an outsider like me, it sounds balanced and sincere (I mean, taking the effort to listen to people's views and draw conclusions from that rather than hoisting propaganda on people).  Or maybe I am just a naive outsider! LOL


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:15
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington.  For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many .  Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.

How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.


ask the GOP if they control the system. The voters can.. and did this year... show who really is control. That is the one bright spot.. other than well.. guarantied Clinton 4 years in the White House hahaha... of the rise of Trump and the alt-Right.  That is not the 'system' ... that is the voter expressing their latent power no matter how many millions the establishment has or who they want.

Still upset over Bernie?  Fact is more Democrats voted for Clinton than Bernie and had more delegates even before establishment super-delegates came into play. It was democracy in action. It was not rigged... nor stolen. The voters decide...

sure it is easy to sit back and blame the system for the failure of the voters to demand that the people they elect actually ..well... haha.. you know. DO SOMETHING other than throw tantrums when they can't get their way ..get rich while in office .... perhaps doing things like .. ummm.. you know... provide funding for fighting Zika before taking the summer off.

sorry man..  blaming the system for what voters have the power to fix by voting out those that do not do their job is rubbish and far too easy..and speaks to the general ignorance and apathy of the American electorate...

thus the mess we have.  The problem isn't the system..that is the childish answer... it is the voters or more to the point.  A subset of the population that votes based on misinformation.. ignorance of issues.. and general partisan identification. Thus empowering what is truly broken. Not our political system, but one of the two major parties that does nothing but exist to deny the other parties attempts to fix real problems in this country. Misguided or not.. at least one side is actually trying to fix the real problems we have... not pyring into ones personal lives in order to perserve 'christian' values or to makes ones goddamn bathroom experience less threatening hahaha


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:20
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington.  For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many .  Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.

How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.

For starters, the winner takes all format of the Electoral College is problematic.  It means a party can game the system by winning a few big states, taking them much closer to 270 than the other.  Yes, apportioning college votes proportionally may make the chance of a hung verdict greater, but that is a risk worth taking because it shows the people don't like either candidate enough (something that is probably true of this election) and would convey to both parties that they need to work harder to find appropriate candidates.


those founding fathers were some smart dudes.. why was the Electoral College implemented?

Have things really changed since then... see the 40% of the this country that are likely to vote for someone with severe disqualifiying mental disorder... ZERO experience and not even qualfifed to be elected city dog catcher.  Oh... and a captain of business... that couldn't even make money running a casino...

It is the final defense against a ignorant and uniformed electorate. One would like to think we have progressed past needing the E.C... to me.. it sure doesn't look like we have.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:22
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington.  For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many .  Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.

How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.
ask the GOP if they control the system. The voters can.. and did this year... show who really is control. That is the one bright spot.. other than well.. guarantied Clinton 4 years in the White House hahaha... of the rise of Trump and the alt-Right.  That is not the 'system' ... that is the voter expressing their latent power no matter how many millions the establishment has or who they want.

Hear, hear!  Was about to say the same.  As in life, you earn what you truly have, you own it.   These people work for us and we damn well better hire, fire, and discipline all of 'em for any reason whatsoever because that's our part of the deal.



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:30
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:


those founding fathers were some smart dudes.. why was the Electoral College implemented?

Have things really changed since then... see the 40% of the this country that are likely to vote for someone with severe disqualifiying mental disorder... ZERO experience and not even qualfifed to be elected city dog catcher.  Oh... and a captain of business... that couldn't even make money running a casino...

It is the final defense against a ignorant and uniformed electorate. One would like to think we have progressed past needing the E.C... to me.. it sure doesn't look like we have.

So, in effect, in spite of Trump's low ratings on what do you call it approval/likability, you fear he would win in a no holds barred race.  Seriously, Micky, it pains me to see that in the world's oldest democracy, the politicians don't trust the voters.  We did that here from day 1.  You can say, "Well, look where that got you" but our system not being so elitist was an antidote against completely neglecting the poor and the downtrodden.  Everyone should have a voice.  If you really are a democracy, you have to listen to everyone, including the most racist and bigoted of them.  Suppressing the will of the people for too long will only have repercussions in the end.  Or maybe it won't because I suspect the US is ultimately a CIA state.


Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:32
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington.  For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many .  Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.

How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.


ask the GOP if they control the system. The voters can.. and did this year... show who really is control. That is the one bright spot.. other than well.. guarantied Clinton 4 years in the White House hahaha... of the rise of Trump and the alt-Right.  That is not the 'system' ... that is the voter expressing their latent power no matter how many millions the establishment has or who they want.

Still upset over Bernie?  Fact is more Democrats voted for Clinton than Bernie and had more delegates even before establishment super-delegates came into play. It was democracy in action. It was not rigged... nor stolen. The voters decide...

sure it is easy to sit back and blame the system for the failure of the voters to demand that the people they elect actually ..well... haha.. you know. DO SOMETHING other than throw tantrums when they can't get their way ..get rich while in office .... perhaps doing things like .. ummm.. you know... provide funding for fighting Zika before taking the summer off.

sorry man..  blaming the system for what voters have the power to fix by voting out those that do not do their job is rubbish and far too easy..and speaks to the general ignorance and apathy of the American electorate...

thus the mess we have.  The problem isn't the system..that is the childish answer... it is the voters or more to the point.  A subset of the population that votes based on misinformation.. ignorance of issues.. and general partisan identification. Thus empowering what is truly broken. Not our political system, but one of the two major parties that does nothing but exist to deny the other parties attempts to fix real problems in this country. Misguided or not.. at least one side is actually trying to fix the real problems we have... not pyring into ones personal lives in order to perserve 'christian' values or to makes ones goddamn bathroom experience less threatening hahaha

Do you seriously think the general public actually wields political power?


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:35
@ David

that is the way you would hope it would be... but in today's hyper-partisan political world where you hear people say..

my God the Republican Party has gone apesh*t.. Trump is a disaster waiting to happen...but you know... I just can't vote for a Democrat.

you see that which is what is broken.. it isn't the system.. it is the voter.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:38
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

@ David

that is the way you would hope it would be... but in today's hyper-partisan political world where you hear people say..

my God the Republican Party has gone apesh*t.. Trump is a disaster waiting to happen...but you know... I just can't vote for a Democrat.

you see that which is what is broken.. it isn't the system.. it is the voter.

Of course it's the voter, that was my point.  It always has been and will be the voter, it's just that the truth is unpleasant.

On the other hand if people like a Nixon or a Reagan or even a Trump, that is their independent choice.  So be it.   You get what you ask for.   Oh yes indeed.




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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:39
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:


those founding fathers were some smart dudes.. why was the Electoral College implemented?

Have things really changed since then... see the 40% of the this country that are likely to vote for someone with severe disqualifiying mental disorder... ZERO experience and not even qualfifed to be elected city dog catcher.  Oh... and a captain of business... that couldn't even make money running a casino...

It is the final defense against a ignorant and uniformed electorate. One would like to think we have progressed past needing the E.C... to me.. it sure doesn't look like we have.

So, in effect, in spite of Trump's low ratings on what do you call it approval/likability, you fear he would win in a no holds barred race.  Seriously, Micky, it pains me to see that in the world's oldest democracy, the politicians don't trust the voters.  We did that here from day 1.  You can say, "Well, look where that got you" but our system not being so elitist was an antidote against completely neglecting the poor and the downtrodden.  Everyone should have a voice.  If you really are a democracy, you have to listen to everyone, including the most racist and bigoted of them.  Suppressing the will of the people for too long will only have repercussions in the end.  Or maybe it won't because I suspect the US is ultimately a CIA state.


of course I would fear he could win.. not an electoral college win.  The deck is stacked in the Democrats favor... thanks to the Republican Party not caring one bit for anything other than appealing to Nativists, bigots, racists, Fundies, and the politically ignorant/uniformed.

however take out the E.C... all bets are off.... it is a safeguard against the ignorance of the voter. The Founding Fathers saw it then..and 200 odd years later.. it is still around.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:44
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

@ David

that is the way you would hope it would be... but in today's hyper-partisan political world where you hear people say..

my God the Republican Party has gone apesh*t.. Trump is a disaster waiting to happen...but you know... I just can't vote for a Democrat.

you see that which is what is broken.. it isn't the system.. it is the voter.

Of course it's the voter, that was my point.  It always has been and will be the voter, it's just that the truth is unpleasant.

On the other hand if people like a Nixon or a Reagan or even a Trump, that is their independent choice.  So be it.   You get what you ask for.   Oh yes indeed.




Thumbs Up it is an unpleasant truth.. as it the necessity in foresight perhaps  till this particular election 200+ years later hahaha.. of the Electoral College. It was put there to protect this country just for cases like 2016 for voters, their candidates... and major parties like we have in 2016.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:45
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington.  For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many .  Zero ideas on how to responcibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.

How can you blame the people? Surely you realize they are not really in control of the system.


ask the GOP if they control the system. The voters can.. and did this year... show who really is control. That is the one bright spot.. other than well.. guarantied Clinton 4 years in the White House hahaha... of the rise of Trump and the alt-Right.  That is not the 'system' ... that is the voter expressing their latent power no matter how many millions the establishment has or who they want.

Still upset over Bernie?  Fact is more Democrats voted for Clinton than Bernie and had more delegates even before establishment super-delegates came into play. It was democracy in action. It was not rigged... nor stolen. The voters decide...

sure it is easy to sit back and blame the system for the failure of the voters to demand that the people they elect actually ..well... haha.. you know. DO SOMETHING other than throw tantrums when they can't get their way ..get rich while in office .... perhaps doing things like .. ummm.. you know... provide funding for fighting Zika before taking the summer off.

sorry man..  blaming the system for what voters have the power to fix by voting out those that do not do their job is rubbish and far too easy..and speaks to the general ignorance and apathy of the American electorate...

thus the mess we have.  The problem isn't the system..that is the childish answer... it is the voters or more to the point.  A subset of the population that votes based on misinformation.. ignorance of issues.. and general partisan identification. Thus empowering what is truly broken. Not our political system, but one of the two major parties that does nothing but exist to deny the other parties attempts to fix real problems in this country. Misguided or not.. at least one side is actually trying to fix the real problems we have... not pyring into ones personal lives in order to perserve 'christian' values or to makes ones goddamn bathroom experience less threatening hahaha

Do you seriously think the general public actually wields political power?


they've proven it... if you don't see it.  You are blind IMO.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:52
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

For starters, the winner takes all format of the Electoral College is problematic.  It means a party can game the system by winning a few big states, taking them much closer to 270 than the other.  Yes, apportioning college votes proportionally may make the chance of a hung verdict greater, but that is a risk worth taking because it shows the people don't like either candidate enough (something that is probably true of this election) and would convey to both parties that they need to work harder to find appropriate candidates.
Actually the EC is problematic but for the exact opposite reason 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k" rel="nofollow - http://youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k


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https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 20:54
Personally, as a socialist I don't think the system we have now needs "fixing" because it is working the way it should. To blame the population for being "too ignorant" to somehow fix it by "voting in their own favor" or whatever is pure classism. The only way to see any fundamental change is if we were to change the underlying capitalist system that our political system upholds.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:01
the American political system is a beautiful thing.. and the E.C fits right into that.

It will force the Republican Party.. which in case I have been obtuse in my thoughts.. is the real problem and danger facing this country... it will force it to moderate and lose the hate and division.. or become a permanent minority out of power party.

f**k with.. or eliminate the E.C... there would be no reason to do so.. they could hope to win a plurality vote.

It will force the Replican Party to change... or die.  Either will make for a better country...

the E.C was never a problem until one of the two major parties making itself an afterthought at the national level by alienating fully 40% of the country. Thus gettting close to.. and will soon reach.. where one party has a near lock on 270 before a single vote is cast. Don't blame the system.. again.. blame the voter.. blame the party that the voters support.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:03
Are you responding to anyone or just talking

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https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:04
just talking  Feel free to disagree...


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:05
LOL 

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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:07
Well I disagree that the EC is beautiful and that it hurts the Republician party. The EC favors smaller states which are ones that typically vote Republician, if we had proportional voting, it's likely the Republicians would have even slimmer chances

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https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:09
Yes, it's broken. 
Yes, it can be fixed. 

Needless to say this would be a very very difficult, realistically probably impossible, task but of course it can be done. It would just require our will to do so, after discussion and debate and etc like I said, in reality this is most certainly never happening. 

Me personally? A proportional voting, 3+ party system, something done about extreme/political gerrymandering and far more open primaries. Either allowing independents in, letting them change to a party day of, something along those lines. Primaries should all be video recorded, and fully staffed. This sounds almost dumb...but it's true. The stories like 80% of Iowa precincts (or whatever it was) not being fully staffed, the 100,000+ in Brooklyn denied because they were backlogged on registration all these places not having enough ballots, pure shameful lunacy. The 60 voting stations for a 4 million person county, causing 5 hour lines? Yeah no more of that. 

This is for the voting process of course. For politics itself, the $ influence involved has to be removed. 
How on earth this could happen, no idea. Hopefully some of the above ideas, which while difficult could be done, would go a long way. 

Trying to keep things somewhat realistic. While I am for abolishing the electoral college, I see this as perhaps the most improbably feat, and ya know things have worked well for a long time with it, so it's less necessary to me to see it removed. That said I am on paper, for it. 


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:11
^ Interesting ideas -



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:13
Nope... I don't see that....  look at the control of the House.  In actuality the weighted vote of smaller red states count more than heavily populated Blue States.

Look no further than my dear Virginia..  a blue state now...  so how would proportional voting (say on congressional districts  like Ne and Me do)go..LOL 




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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:19
Thank you David! 
It was nice to condense random thoughts I've had all over in one postLOL
And I think such actions should be direct if needed. Like, once here someone said they agreed on how the process should be fully staffed and all that, thus "That's why we need to make sure we win" to properly fund the government and etc

I say do it via bill...can't wait for years, or have it randomly cut off with a party change, and frankly I think both parties are equally as likely to uh....take exclusionary efforts, and ya know, part of the funding problem can't be helped. The voting process for what is supposed to be the great democracy, should be fully funded, staffed, and equipped and should be done so without being tied to local budgets and etc


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:21
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Yes, it's broken. 
Yes, it can be fixed. 

Needless to say this would be a very very difficult, realistically probably impossible, task but of course it can be done. It would just require our will to do so, after discussion and debate and etc like I said, in reality this is most certainly never happening. 

Me personally? A proportional voting, 3+ party system, something done about extreme/political gerrymandering and far more open primaries. Either allowing independents in, letting them change to a party day of, something along those lines. Primaries should all be video recorded, and fully staffed. This sounds almost dumb...but it's true. The stories like 80% of Iowa precincts (or whatever it was) not being fully staffed, the 100,000+ in Brooklyn denied because they were backlogged on registration all these places not having enough ballots, pure shameful lunacy. The 60 voting stations for a 4 million person county, causing 5 hour lines? Yeah no more of that. 

This is for the voting process of course. For politics itself, the $ influence involved has to be removed. 
How on earth this could happen, no idea. Hopefully some of the above ideas, which while difficult could be done, would go a long way. 

Trying to keep things somewhat realistic. While I am for abolishing the electoral college, I see this as perhaps the most improbably feat, and ya know things have worked well for a long time with it, so it's less necessary to me to see it removed. That said I am on paper, for it. 


agreed interesting ideas... about as much chance of happening as I would have becoming President with all the videos out there of me in drag and trying to score guys phone numbers during my Jack Daniels years...

the system is fine.... it is the rage filled self-destruction of one of our two parties that brings into focus potential 'problems' in the system. The lack of tacking important issues... bipartisanship needed to do so... the EC issues with predetermined results.  I don't blame the system.. it has worked for 200 years... I blame again the voters for allowing it and in the case of half of our fellow Americans.. encouraging it..


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:24
Someday you'll have to be caught in drag picking up men to become President.



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 21:31
LOL and would people still think our political system is broken... pfff...


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 22:02
Hmmm...I still don't find putting the blame all on voters very convincing, more so in a two party system where you don't even give voters much choice. But what I see is your system does not protect voters from politicians; I guess unfettered free speech makes that difficult. Trump would have been disqualified several times by the Indian Election Commission. Speeches inciting communal unrest or making promises to specific religions are not allowed. I guess if some such code was attempted to be enforced in the US, the Supreme Court would strike it down. No seriously I think politicians are devils and people do need to be protected for them. Their words (Trump's favourite word) can and have caused much damage by misleading people or working up mob rage.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 29 2016 at 04:06
At the risk of repeating myself (Wink), I have to say that fixing the system is both the responsibility of the parties now in place and the voters. Again, I'll state that practices like gerrymandering are encouraged or at least over looked by both parties, as they both find it a handy tool when they are in control of Congress. And voters seem to come out of the woodwork for a unique candidate like Barrack Obama for Pres. and, now, Donald Trump running in the recent Republican primary. Where were these record number of voters before they had a hero to vote for?


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 29 2016 at 12:36
Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

What would the definition of 'fixed' be in your mind? Trump and Bernie have both argued (from different vantage points) that the American political system is already 'fixed' and that's what's wrong with it.

Every political and social system in history has been this way and there's nothing magical about ours that makes it any different. A bit more tolerable maybe, but that's about all.
I had to think a bit on how to respond to this Bob, without sounding cliche. If we take the "this is the best it's going to be" route, there is both truth and fiction in that view, as we can always make something better. Our system is not perfect but we can still improve it. What we have over totalitarian systems is a certain degree of transparency in our government, and the more, the better. Is the US government totally transparent? No, and it never will be, but it still beats the hell out of a government like Cuba's.

Now, that still sounds cliched. Rats! PinchLOL


Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: August 29 2016 at 15:19
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Yeah.. can't agree with the basic premise.  It isn't our political system that is broken..

it is the country. 

Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington.  For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many .  Zero ideas on how to responsibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.

Gotta disagree on several counts Mick.  The last two presidential (and congressional) election cycles were the most expensive in terms of media and promotional spending, so it's hard to argue people are uninformed.  Misinformed maybe, but not uninformed.  And I don't think voters are apathetic either.  We've had a pretty consistent level of voter participation for the past forty years, 50-60%, but the partisanship has grown steadily over that same time period.  You have to go back to the last half of the 19th century to see higher levels of participation, and back then pretty much only Protestant, land-owning white men had the right to vote (more on that in a moment).  And we're certainly not ignorant, at least from a macro-view.  America today has the most well-educated populace in her history, with high-school graduation rates at a near all-time high and enrollment in higher education steadily increasing for the past century.  Partisan politics have gotten uglier over the past few years but this is certainly nothing new for us, one could argue that things were a whole lot uglier 150 years ago when we spent four years killing each other over our sharply-divided political views.

What has steadily and irreversibly changed over the past century is the diversity of the electorate, and of the population in general.  Today people of all faiths, economic classes, religions, genders and social viewpoints have the power of the ballot box, although even here there are constant attempts to dilute that diversity through gerrymandering, voter ID initiatives, intimidation and other forms of disenfranchisement.  It is not a coincidence that the my current state requires state-issued IDs and in this area the only two places to get one are DMV offices that are in white neighborhoods and off the path of public transportation.  This was not the case several years ago when state IDs were not required to vote.

The two-party, winner take all approach, funded and influenced by special interests that we have for elections is the system, and if not broken then it at least has become highly ineffective.  National parties choose the candidates, which means I can have anyone I want as President or Senator, as long as it is one of the pre-approved selections of those parties.  Super delegates didn't decide the Democratic nominee but their existence means the national party controls the nomination process except in the case of a high landslide, which will become more unlikely as our population becomes more diverse.  And we've proven time and again that there is no realistic chance of a third-party candidate, and the primary systems of many states prevent third-parties from even making it onto a ballot, so the ability to affect change through voting is a restrictive proposition at best.  And given the growing diversity of our voting population it seems likely that we will continue to see elections like this one where we play out a sick game of 'would you rather' at the polls because our outdated system is not designed to accommodate much beyond either/or choices.



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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."

Albert Camus


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 29 2016 at 15:21
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

No


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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 30 2016 at 04:35
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

No
You're too eloquent for such a brief response T. Could you please expand on your reply. Thanks.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 30 2016 at 04:46
Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:



What has steadily and irreversibly changed over the past century is the diversity of the electorate, and of the population in general.  Today people of all faiths, economic classes, religions, genders and social viewpoints have the power of the ballot box, although even here there are constant attempts to dilute that diversity through gerrymandering, voter ID initiatives, intimidation and other forms of disenfranchisement.  It is not a coincidence that the my current state requires state-issued IDs and in this area the only two places to get one are DMV offices that are in white neighborhoods and off the path of public transportation.  This was not the case several years ago when state IDs were not required to vote.

The two-party, winner take all approach, funded and influenced by special interests that we have for elections is the system, and if not broken then it at least has become highly ineffective.  National parties choose the candidates, which means I can have anyone I want as President or Senator, as long as it is one of the pre-approved selections of those parties.  Super delegates didn't decide the Democratic nominee but their existence means the national party controls the nomination process except in the case of a high landslide, which will become more unlikely as our population becomes more diverse.  And we've proven time and again that there is no realistic chance of a third-party candidate, and the primary systems of many states prevent third-parties from even making it onto a ballot, so the ability to affect change through voting is a restrictive proposition at best.  And given the growing diversity of our voting population it seems likely that we will continue to see elections like this one where we play out a sick game of 'would you rather' at the polls because our outdated system is not designed to accommodate much beyond either/or choices.

This is an excellent overview of the main problems of US political system in a nutshell, as far as I'm concerned. But what is the remedy to this Bob? Hopefully, identifying the areas of disease will lead to a cure.


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 30 2016 at 08:46
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

No
You're too eloquent for such a brief response T. Could you please expand on your reply. Thanks.
Sorry. But yes, I see it impossible. Too many strange things have to happen from a political point of view and then there even have to be societal mindset changes that I think in 2079 the system will be exactly the same. To "fix" this system you need money out of politics (won't happen, even if it's somewhat reduced, the American elections will remain a "who has more money for ads and staff" contest); you need in my opinion more than 2 parties (won't happen, unless Democrats and Republicans for some reason get a liking to political harakiri); you need a more informed electorate (yes, with such "tremendous" education at the mid-high school level); I even think you make minor things like a national voting day holiday (won't happen, Republicans won't let it happen); no gerrymandering; etc etc etc etc. 

Short of an actual social revolution (which won't ever happen here as American youth seems to not give a sh*t about anything but cars women and the NFL) the system will remain as it is forever. 

So, considering my pessimism, my original "NO" sufficed. Tongue


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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 30 2016 at 10:18
^Gotcha! Thanks!

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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.


Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: August 30 2016 at 11:10
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Short of an actual social revolution (which won't ever happen here as American youth seems to not give a sh*t about anything but cars women and the NFL) the system will remain as it is forever.

I disagree with that, things like the Occupy movement and the BLM movement are proof that this generation has become less complacent imo


Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: August 30 2016 at 11:39
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:



What has steadily and irreversibly changed over the past century is the diversity of the electorate, and of the population in general.  Today people of all faiths, economic classes, religions, genders and social viewpoints have the power of the ballot box, although even here there are constant attempts to dilute that diversity through gerrymandering, voter ID initiatives, intimidation and other forms of disenfranchisement.  It is not a coincidence that the my current state requires state-issued IDs and in this area the only two places to get one are DMV offices that are in white neighborhoods and off the path of public transportation.  This was not the case several years ago when state IDs were not required to vote.

The two-party, winner take all approach, funded and influenced by special interests that we have for elections is the system, and if not broken then it at least has become highly ineffective.  National parties choose the candidates, which means I can have anyone I want as President or Senator, as long as it is one of the pre-approved selections of those parties.  Super delegates didn't decide the Democratic nominee but their existence means the national party controls the nomination process except in the case of a high landslide, which will become more unlikely as our population becomes more diverse.  And we've proven time and again that there is no realistic chance of a third-party candidate, and the primary systems of many states prevent third-parties from even making it onto a ballot, so the ability to affect change through voting is a restrictive proposition at best.  And given the growing diversity of our voting population it seems likely that we will continue to see elections like this one where we play out a sick game of 'would you rather' at the polls because our outdated system is not designed to accommodate much beyond either/or choices.

This is an excellent overview of the main problems of US political system in a nutshell, as far as I'm concerned. But what is the remedy to this Bob? Hopefully, identifying the areas of disease will lead to a cure.

Let's hope that is the case.

IMHO a major overhaul or revolution of either extreme is unlikely to be successful, simply because the resulting upheaval would never be tolerated by the political elite or the government itself, and would be feared by many citizens.  I'm referring to a dramatic change in our 'system' such as replacing the electoral college with a popular vote; or replacing Congress with a parliamentary system; or major campaign finance reform which would almost certainly require action by the Supreme Court and Congress; or changing the very balance of powers our current three-tiered government rests on; or a Constitutional amendment of any kind; or the emergence of a third or fourth party; or more dramatically an uprising, coup, succession or other civil action.  These things aren't likely to happen and even if they did wouldn't likely solve the root causes of our political problems and would create several new ones.

The problem as I see it is that we have two parties that are becoming more polar while the electorate they're supposed to represent becomes more diverse.  So it may be that there was a time when the majority of voters identified with the ideals and values of one or the other party, but as minorities and women and teens and non-Protestant and non-elite citizens gained the right and the ability to vote, it was inevitable that more and more voters would emerge whose values and interests fell outside the boundaries of one or the other party's platforms.  And that's what has happened.

The solution is obvious, making it happen is the challenge.  The solution is that each party needs to broaden its platform and become more inclusive, but the reality is the opposite is happening.  People like Trump appeal to populist emotions but in reality people on the left & right extremes of his flock will never work together in government or socially, and probably don't even work together on his campaign.  The Republicans give lip service to trying to make themselves more relevant to minorities and young people and non-Christians and immigrants and the working class, but the efforts are disingenuous and tend to be more about trying to get non-standard Republicans to talk, act and think like the old-guard party base.  Hence the jokes about self-loathing Log Cabin Republicans and Hispanic Republicans chanting at rallys "We don't need our kind around here!"

The Democrats aren't much better, as is evidenced by the back-room tactics of the national party leaders to illegally (or at least unethically) manipulate candidate support within their own party prior to the primary, or frankly by even having super delegates in the first place.  Much of the 'embracing' of diversity within the party smells of pandering, especially at the national and candidate level.

Compared to the alternatives I think the safest, most realistic and most likely to succeed solution is to evolve the two established parties to the point where they start to reflect and represent the broad majority of citizens again.  And this doesn't require government, it doesn't require a bunch of money or constitutional amendments.  However, since we can't popularly elect the national leadership of the major parties, it does mean those leaders must to make a legitimate, sincere and concentrated effort to dilute their respective extreme positions along the political spectrum, and members of both parties need to be aggressive in rejecting any extreme positions within their own parties.  Can this be done?  Not sure, but this will be the 10th presidential election I've voted in and I've never seen either party so weak, unpopular or disheveled.  I do have faith that there are enough adults among both parties leaders that we will see some self-imposed reform once the debacle that is Campaign 2016 finally ends.



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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."

Albert Camus


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 30 2016 at 12:14
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Short of an actual social revolution (which won't ever happen here as American youth seems to not give a sh*t about anything but cars women and the NFL) the system will remain as it is forever.

I disagree with that, things like the Occupy movement and the BLM movement are proof that this generation has become less complacent imo
It's true that there are elements who have started showing they care a little, but:

1. Sometimes their whole focus is one major issue (as in racism and police brutality in BLM). Though you can effect changes in particular areas, there's no actual overriding ideology or plan to change the way the political system works. 

2. The Occupy movement hasn't coalesced into a proper political alternative or at least movement. Narrow-mindedness and lack of any actual political idea other than the 1% denunciation don't help. 


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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 30 2016 at 13:26
Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

The two-party, winner take all approach, funded and influenced by special interests...

The solution is obvious, making it happen is the challenge.  The solution is that each party needs to broaden its platform and become more inclusive, but the reality is the opposite is happening.  People like Trump appeal to populist emotions but in reality people on the left & right extremes of his flock will never work together in government or socially, and probably don't even work together on his campaign.  The Republicans give lip service to trying to make themselves more relevant to minorities and young people and non-Christians and immigrants and the working class, but the efforts are disingenuous and tend to be more about trying to get non-standard Republicans to talk, act and think like the old-guard party base. 

I do have faith that there are enough adults among both parties leaders that we will see some self-imposed reform once the debacle that is Campaign 2016 finally ends.

Another informative post and there's little here that I can argue against. Even as a Democrat, I too am disgusted with the backroom deals of the Democratic party, but I would like to add that this whole Electoral College deal is a joke, as are delegates and super delegates. When did our  actual votes ever really count?

But your optimism definitely gives me a lift that I haven't felt in quite a while, so a big thanks for that. 


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 15:38
Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Yeah.. can't agree with the basic premise.  It isn't our political system that is broken..

it is the country. 

Don't blame the politicians.. blame the un-informed, apathetic, ignorant, hyper-partisan voter for the mess in Washington.  For electing and continuing to return to office those that have zero interest in doing anything other than obstruction or pushing agendas that serve the few rather than the many .  Zero ideas on how to responsibly govern.. to work together to say yes.. to move forward.. and who are only there (and put there implicitly by idiot voters who then rage about how our government is broken and nothing gets done) to say no.. and obstruct.

Gotta disagree on several counts Mick.  The last two presidential (and congressional) election cycles were the most expensive in terms of media and promotional spending, so it's hard to argue people are uninformed.  Misinformed maybe, but not uninformed.  And I don't think voters are apathetic either.  We've had a pretty consistent level of voter participation for the past forty years, 50-60%, but the partisanship has grown steadily over that same time period.  You have to go back to the last half of the 19th century to see higher levels of participation, and back then pretty much only Protestant, land-owning white men had the right to vote (more on that in a moment).  And we're certainly not ignorant, at least from a macro-view.  America today has the most well-educated populace in her history, with high-school graduation rates at a near all-time high and enrollment in higher education steadily increasing for the past century.  Partisan politics have gotten uglier over the past few years but this is certainly nothing new for us, one could argue that things were a whole lot uglier 150 years ago when we spent four years killing each other over our sharply-divided political views.

What has steadily and irreversibly changed over the past century is the diversity of the electorate, and of the population in general.  Today people of all faiths, economic classes, religions, genders and social viewpoints have the power of the ballot box, although even here there are constant attempts to dilute that diversity through gerrymandering, voter ID initiatives, intimidation and other forms of disenfranchisement.  It is not a coincidence that the my current state requires state-issued IDs and in this area the only two places to get one are DMV offices that are in white neighborhoods and off the path of public transportation.  This was not the case several years ago when state IDs were not required to vote.

The two-party, winner take all approach, funded and influenced by special interests that we have for elections is the system, and if not broken then it at least has become highly ineffective.  National parties choose the candidates, which means I can have anyone I want as President or Senator, as long as it is one of the pre-approved selections of those parties.  Super delegates didn't decide the Democratic nominee but their existence means the national party controls the nomination process except in the case of a high landslide, which will become more unlikely as our population becomes more diverse.  And we've proven time and again that there is no realistic chance of a third-party candidate, and the primary systems of many states prevent third-parties from even making it onto a ballot, so the ability to affect change through voting is a restrictive proposition at best.  And given the growing diversity of our voting population it seems likely that we will continue to see elections like this one where we play out a sick game of 'would you rather' at the polls because our outdated system is not designed to accommodate much beyond either/or choices.



Heart

I think we are talking on two sides of the same coin here Bob.

Forget the amount spent on previous elections. How much of it related to issues... I'd wager...10%.. and I think I am being generous. The other 90% is related to tearing apart or destroying the opposing candidate. That is something the GOP brought out in 1988 and something the Democrats took some time to learn.. and after finally releazing that the Gen Pop could really care less about the minutia of policy details but care more about which candidate they 'like' best or hate worst... they finally learned what the GOP taught them.

most American voters can't be troubled to learn about the issues... they are engaged.. yes they vote.. but are they really paying attention to issues Bob? Of course not.. if so... Trump would have had his boxers run up the flagpole for the obvious stupidity of his claims. From Obama's birth.. to all the conspiracy theories.. to sim;ply blaming Obama for Khan's son's death... years before he was even a national figure.  The American public.. or a large right wing percentage of it does not care about facts. They hear want they want to hear.

So yes.. I stand by uniformed and ignorant.  40% of this nation takes its news from organizations that have ZERO interest in presenting anything but what the audience tunes in to what to hear. Thus the 2012 poll debacle. Ignorance pure and simple.

Where we are on the same coin is the root cause of a signifcant percenage of the electorate willingly making themselves unimformed and ignorant.

partisan politics. 

great article here...  I must admit.. I found this after my posting diarrea the other night. And proud to say... it says nothing more than what I was saying.

which bring us back to the original topic.. and my posts. The system is not broken... it is the voters that are the problem. The system worked for 200 plus years... what we are seeing now... we have never seen in this country... even when our House members were beating each other with canes. LOL

we simply have never seen this level of partisanship in this country.. never.. not even when we were killing each other ...

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-political-process-isnt-rigged-it-has-much-bigger-problems/" rel="nofollow - http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-political-process-isnt-rigged-it-has-much-bigger-problems/



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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 01 2016 at 12:38
Not too surprising you'd say that Micky. 
No the system is not fine, not even closeLOL
And I do believe I said there is no realistic chance of anything happening but that's why the internet is a great place, the discussion of ideas. Until one of our parties (both are equally like to do it) finally just starts censoring the internetLOL


Like I said the $ influence is really the problem behind many things BUT no way the system will just purge itself of that, so just pondering other tinkerings and stuff to help. 


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 05:35
ErmmHeart

I didn't say the system was fine... I said the system works. THe influence of money has always been a part of government... always will.

K Street didn't pop up overnight.

Something has broken however.. I was merely pointing out what I, and others, see as the real culprit.

It is us... the voters. Blind partisan voting, igorant uninformed voting. Keeping a dead political party on life support and setting it on the track to being a permenant minority party. Our political system is not designed to handle that.  Thus gridlock and obstruction.  We are why the system is broken.

to quote the final line from that article.

Left untouched, our politics will reach a breaking point — maybe we’re already there. And ultimately, voters get the government they deserve.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip



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