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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65266
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Posted: March 20 2016 at 20:15 |
The unspoken fact is that playing an instrument is physically painful and, eventually, can even be a burden. A musician ~ even an amateur ~ is often expected to play, perform, entertain, demonstrate, educate, all at the drop of a hat and with no time to warm-up or compensation to be had. It can go from being a rewarding and pleasurable journey to a monkey on one's back that constantly expects attention.
This concludes my bitter disillusioned rant.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: March 20 2016 at 05:59 |
Basically, this will take a minimum of 10 years, and ideally it should take the rest of your life. Oh yes, and it'll cost a lot of money.
Still interested ? ;-)
I get 1001 people saying "I wish I could play the sax." Strangely, all of them have never actually bought a sax. I then offer to take them to a music shop, if they bring about a grand I can get them started on a good basic sax: they then just have to practice for the rest of their lives. No takers so far. ;-)
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: January 04 2016 at 18:33 |
^ Ah, yes, you are right. Got a lot on my mind. Then we can go with [x-6-5-5-3-x].
Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 05 2016 at 11:02
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
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Posted: January 04 2016 at 18:28 |
Eb is the flat 3rd. I put it as the bass note, thus there is no need to put it anywhere else (unless it sounds better the other way).
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: January 04 2016 at 18:12 |
DDPascalDD wrote:
Thanks a lot guys, this will truly help me! One question along the way: I want to play the following chord on guitar: a C minor with an added second (d) and an E flat in the bass. I could leave the E flat because it will also be played by other instruments, but preferrably with. Also downtuning is gonna be pretty hard concerning other chords I have to play. How could I play this chord (in the most easy way)? |
Polymorphia wrote:
6th fret on A string, 5th fret on D string, 5th fret on G string, 3rd fret on B string
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This one has the b3rd missing. Sounds more like a sus2 than a minor chord.
Polymorphia wrote:
11th fret on low E string, 10th fret on D string, 7th fret on G string, 8th fret on B string
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Also missing the b3rd, and is harder to play due to a greater finger stretch.
Assuming you want to play in the standard tuning, there is no easy way to fret Cmadd9/Eb.
DDPascalDD wrote:
Also downtuning is gonna be pretty hard concerning other chords I have to play. How could I play this chord (in the most easy way)? | I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I'm guessing what you meant is this: you don't want to change the tuning of the 6th string (low E) since the other chords you want to play will depend on that string.
I would say that you are at a disadvantage here since you want to play the chord on a guitar in a standard tuning.
Now, if other instruments will play the Eb, you leave the Eb in the bass and focus on the Root, b3, and 9th of the Cm:
or or or with Eb E|-----------------------10-------------------10------------ B|-3---------------------8---------------------8------------ G|-0------7-------------8---------------------8------------- D|-1------5------------10--------------------10------------ A|-3------6------------------------------------------------- E|---------8----------------------------------11------------
The last variation of the chord (11-x-10-8-8-10) you can play (assuming you are a righty) by holding the right index finger on the 11th fret, muting the 5th string, and playing the chord with the right thumb. Clumsy - yes, but if you want that Eb in the bass, ... the choice is yours.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 04 2016 at 18:34
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Polymorphia
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Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
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Points: 8856
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Posted: January 04 2016 at 10:46 |
6th fret on A string, 5th fret on D string, 5th fret on G string, 3rd fret on B string
or, for more of a stretch,
11th fret on low E string, 10th fret on D string, 7th fret on G string, 8th fret on B string
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DDPascalDD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 06 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 856
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Posted: January 04 2016 at 10:39 |
Thanks a lot guys, this will truly help me! One question along the way: I want to play the following chord on guitar: a C minor with an added second (d) and an E flat in the bass. I could leave the E flat because it will also be played by other instruments, but preferrably with. Also downtuning is gonna be pretty hard concerning other chords I have to play. How could I play this chord (in the most easy way)?
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: January 03 2016 at 01:57 |
^ I write scale degrees in a melody down so that when I go back, read, and play them I will remember what a b3 or a 5th or a b13th sounds like in that melody.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 03 2016 at 02:02
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Polymorphia
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Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
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Posted: January 03 2016 at 00:46 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Polymorphia wrote:
7. Transcription. Transcribe solos, riffs, melodies, chord progressions from anything of any genre, even if it's not on guitar or guitar isn't even present in the recording. Film scores, jazz, classical, pop songs, whatever catches your ear. | I used to write scale/mode degrees (instead of fret numbers) on tablature. Not that it helped me much. But go with whatever works for you. |
Er. The typical usage of "transcription" by musicians/music educators really just means learning things by ear, regardless of whether or not you write them down. You're transcribing the music onto your instrument, if you will. I don't write anything down either.
Edited by Polymorphia - January 03 2016 at 00:47
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: January 03 2016 at 00:16 |
Polymorphia wrote:
4. Learn to play and sing at the same time. Being able to contextualize melodies with what you're playing on guitar can help your melodic ear. |
I thought about ear-training, but then I just forgot about it. They say ear-training can help you a great deal to identify intervals (maj 2nd, min 3rd, maj 6th, dim 5th, etc.) so that you can have some memory bank of reference to the root of the chord currently being played as you are playing a melody (at least that's the way I understood it). I suppose it's that natural limitation on my discipline that has kept me away from any chance of becoming a better player.
Polymorphia wrote:
7. Transcription. Transcribe solos, riffs, melodies, chord progressions from anything of any genre, even if it's not on guitar or guitar isn't even present in the recording. Film scores, jazz, classical, pop songs, whatever catches your ear. | I used to write scale/mode degrees (instead of fret numbers) on tablature. Not that it helped me much. But go with whatever works for you, Pascal.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 03 2016 at 03:03
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Ozark Soundscape
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2014
Location: not here
Status: Offline
Points: 2360
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Posted: January 02 2016 at 22:40 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
You are 15. |
Holy sh*t someone younger than me.
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
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Points: 8856
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Posted: January 02 2016 at 22:34 |
Alright. Some tips.
1. Write parts you have trouble playing and play them with a click track or metronome. If you have trouble with them, play them slow.
2. Come up with parts based on novel ideas that are idiomatic to the guitar. For instance, melodies using only harmonics. Not that that hasn't been done, but things like that help you think outside the box.
3. Stretch your improvising skills by putting some kind of limit on yourself. I did this subconsciously by starting on non-chord-tones and using as many I could just because I liked the sound. Think about limits you can place on yourself and come up with ideas in those limits.
4. Learn to play and sing at the same time. Being able to contextualize melodies with what you're playing on guitar can help your melodic ear.
5. Buy a loop station or find some way to do the following: Write a chord progression. Record and loop it. Play over it ad nauseam. Find licks you like over it.
6. Remember that music is sound. As much as noodling and practicing unplugged by yourself helps. It helps to practice with an amp and also with other people. One thing about improvisation is that, in a band setting, it's very much about feeding off of people's ideas. If the drummer plays a triplet fill, you can play a triplet lick, or interact with it some other way. You can harmonize with the bassline. You can create crazy noises to match the energy of what the other band members are doing.
7. Transcription. Transcribe solos, riffs, melodies, chord progressions from anything of any genre, even if it's not on guitar or guitar isn't even present in the recording. Film scores, jazz, classical, pop songs, whatever catches your ear.
The main thing that made improvement very natural for me was that playing guitar was almost synonymous with writing songs from the outset. Before I learned any songs, I learned a few chords and arranged a chord progression out of them. I transcribed several different things (and developed good ears thereby) because I wanted to write songs with that mood or emotional resonance. I learned a good bit of theory along the way, so I knew many scale/mode names and the theory behind them, but I didn't practice scales as much as people might think because I listened to a good deal of music that was modal or in strange scales and wrote stuff based on the sound of those songs myself such that I eventually got a feel for how they laid on guitar and how to use the anyway. I wrote parts that were technically hard for me to play and improved my technique that way. I got into avant-garde music and wrote plenty of that and came back to tonal music with increased versatility. I listened to a lot of music (still do) and imitated things I heard.
But the experience I did have with one particular teacher was invaluable. My final tip: If you go looking for a teacher, look for a good jazz teacher. They'll usually have more tricks up their sleeve in terms of improvisation and soloing than a rock or classical one. (Just don't imitate their tendency to turn the tone knob all the way down ).
Edited by Polymorphia - January 02 2016 at 22:35
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: January 02 2016 at 16:32 |
^ There you go. You are 15. Take advantage of the fact that you've got a lot of time ahead of you, but don't procrastinate. Get in touch with any of the local guitar or keyboard/piano players, someone who is friendly and willing to share, preferably someone who is into the same kind of music that you want to take on when learning to improvise.
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DDPascalDD
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Joined: August 06 2015
Location: The Netherlands
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Points: 856
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Posted: January 02 2016 at 16:26 |
^That's a very good one actually. Now that you say it I see oppurtinities to play a lot with others!
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
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Posted: January 02 2016 at 16:23 |
Nothing will replace human interaction when it comes to learning, huh? ... I wish I knew that in advance.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65266
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Posted: January 02 2016 at 16:20 |
Yes a good teacher can be important and all the other suggestions are fine. But the single best way to improve on an instrument ~ especially a rock- or jazz-oriented one like guitar, bass or drums ~ is to play with others of a similar level.
Join or form a band.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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DDPascalDD
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Joined: August 06 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 856
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Posted: January 02 2016 at 15:24 |
@Dayvenqirk: What I like most about Gilmour is that his solo's can stand on their own, solely melody is enough to enjoy and analyse. Most clearly on Shine On (first solo). Though sometimes I think something I'm never sure of: for such (not too fast and) melodic solos, it's more the musical feeling than the technique/experience of playing.
In general: I'm not sure I'm able to go to a tutor. I just don't want to quit piano lessons and those two at the same time won't work.
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Ozark Soundscape
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Joined: October 20 2014
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Points: 2360
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Posted: January 02 2016 at 14:26 |
1. Turn in your guitar and buy a turntable 2. Turn in your turntable and buy a guitar
But seriously, if you have the money find a good teacher in your area.
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Polymorphia
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Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
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Points: 8856
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Posted: January 02 2016 at 14:20 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
I have some thoughts on that. Give me an hour. |
Basically this for me, but it might be a little later than that.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: January 02 2016 at 14:14 |
DDPascalDD wrote:
Sorry for the cliche but Mr. Gilmour is my absolute favourite and influence. | And I thought Pete Townshend was a cliche choice.
DDPascalDD wrote:
What I mostly want to do is melodic rock. Sorry for the cliche but Mr. Gilmour is my absolute favourite and influence. Though I don't want to be exactly the same, I'm not going to reach the same skill and being a copy isn't fun, but he's a big example for me. | Pick the qualities you love the most about his style: how sparse or dense his parts are, how he handles his dynamic range, etc. Dave has a background in blues music, started off as an OK psych guitarist skill-wise, but in a matter of several years blossomed into a bit more proficient, more melodic player. He was taking advantage of slides, bends, and blues and whole-tone scales and developed his own sense of rhythm.
DDPascalDD wrote:
Therefore, I think point 4) is most important for me, but I'll definitely go through them all. | From a purely technical perspective: In that case I highly recommend you to find a really good tutor, but one that suits your needs, your learning curve, whether your learning style is visual or kinesthetic. Learn some bits and pieces written by other people or come up with some boring or interesting bits of your own.
From a purely intimate, more human perspective: That's a tough one for me, I'm not gonna lie. I can recall only one truly good melody I came up, and I wrote that one. All the great melodies I've heard are all slow/mid-tempo, simple and elegant. They depend heavily on the sound of the instrument and the player's technique/methods of playing a note or going from one note to the next. They do not rely on speed. But that's just my perspective, and it's coming from someone who was a Floyd fan. It's almost like magic. With that being said, pulling a magic trick on spot shouldn't be impossible if you listen to your instrument and figure out what chords/notes/harmonics/techniques sound best on it.
DDPascalDD wrote:
I got one question though: is it more useful to know a lot about chords or about scales? | The way I see it: they are like two hemispheres of one brain - inseparable.
- Let's say you focus solely on chords. How are you going to make melodies now? Using boring arpeggios? - Let's say you focus solely on scales. How are you going to develop a sense of harmony? Do you have a band that's going to back you up with a beat and a root/slash note or a groove? Can you make sure your notes won't sound out of place?
A good solo is like a piece of jewelry: the chords are the chain, but the notes are the gems.
Also, if you can see a scale in its boxed, ascending, or descending form, you can see its corresponding chord in a corresponding shape. If you can see a chord, you can figure out a scale. Scale -> chord. Chord -> scale. Kapish? (One or two people on this forum would probably argue this point, but I'm willing to hear them out.)
If you must insist on me making my choice between the two, then I say: you have to figure it out on your own. If you like to harmonize a lot (which doesn't sound like you, because you want to focus on soloing), learn more about the chords. If you want some sweet, fancy intonations, learn more about the scales. That's why I like using the whole-tone and altered scales on top of V when resolving. But only you can figure out a way to express your true musical self.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 02 2016 at 14:30
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