Print Page | Close Window

How to learn guitar

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Tech Talk
Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=105375
Printed Date: November 28 2024 at 15:49
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: How to learn guitar
Posted By: DDPascalDD
Subject: How to learn guitar
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 02:39
To all guitar players or people who know about it:
What is the best way to learn to play guitar?

I want to focus the most on electric guitar and making solos. I've got some musical knowledge because I play piano for about 8 years so that must help me I guess.

Any help will be appreciated!

-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"



Replies:
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 06:20
My instruments on hand currently and in order of preference to picking or firing up are a classical acoustic, synthesizer, and electric guitar.

The best way to learn to play electric guitar is not to learn to play electric guitar.  You should probably isolate yourself from others and just experiment.  Go with the flow and improvise.


-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: pitfall
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 07:24
We seem to have a glut of "Guitar Soloists" at the moment.
Far better in my opinion, is to aspire to become a better all round musician.
It's not about how fast you can talk, but rather about what you have to say.


Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 07:29
^But I want to be all-round. To expand my abilities, I first want to improve my guitar solos

-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 09:13
I have some thoughts on that. Give me an hour.


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 09:42
Personally you can't beat face to face lessons with a tutor. YouTube videos are quite useful up to a point but you can't ask questions!


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 10:59
^ I will get to that later in this post.

============================== @ OP: ==============================

I think it depends on how far you want to take the definition of "all-around". There could probably be different kinds, different degrees of being "all-around". Does this include being eclectic? Does this include having the knack for being a great experimenter?

For right now, I am going to make an assumption for us and say that being all-around just vaguely means being skillful.

Warning: I'm not an all-round player, nor do I know anything about how to become one, so I can't be a very proficient player.

I would have to imagine that the key is dedication. You should develop the ethic for working hard. Quitting is not an option. However, in my personal experience, that's the kind of discipline that has been keeping me from becoming a proficient player for years, because I wasn't having fun. You are either cut out for it or not.

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

My instruments on hand currently and in order of preference to picking or firing up are a classical acoustic, synthesizer, and electric guitar.
The best way to learn to play electric guitar is not to learn to play electric guitar.  You should probably isolate yourself from others and just experiment.  Go with the flow and improvise.
I would have to say that's a very good advice. But I don't think you can have fun unless you get the right sound.

I. What's the style that you'd like to become proficient at and  have fun with? Jazz? Rock? Blues? Find the guitar and the amp that are right for you and your style of interest. Figure out how to get the sound you want because that's key in playing/hearing music. Ask the sales associates. Take notes on how the controls work. Then buy/rent the gear. If you do not get the right sound, do not wonder why you think you sound like crap.

II. Have fun with the gear. Internalize every bit of it. Get a feel for where and what notes are on the fretboard, what note range each of the EADGBE strings has. Note the difference between how the same note (C4, F5, Eb4, etc.) sounds on two-three different strings (654, 543, 432, or 321). Play around with the standard/open/alternate tunings (though I read that way your strings will get wear-and-tear quicker).

III. I would imagine that being resourceful is also important since it's a quality that should help you meet your  demands. chopper is right: some sort of coaching will help you speed up the learning process, be that via YouTube, fretjam.com, or any other source.

    1) Improvisation, like any other process, takes you from point A to point B. There's an alpha and an omega. You dictate what happens during that time. Form is the backbone to the flow from alpha to omega in any composition and improvisation. (I recommend you start with the all-time classic ABABCAB and later on play around with its variations.) Harmonies/chords are the backbone to the music itself at any time during your whole solo break, section, or the entire track as your improvisation. (I recommend you start with some popular progressions, like the ones that involve I, IV, V or i, iv, v.) Dynamics, rhythmic timing, and melody will define your attitude, your personal touch to improvising.

    2) Music theory is important (you should know this by now), and I'm not afraid to be wrong if it isn't because it is. After you've learned a good deal of chords, you should learn the different kinds of scales/modes, primarily major/Ionian, minor/Aeolian, and the other five classical/jazz modes. Others, like Gregorian modes, the Byzantine scale, or the ones used in jazz (e.g., whole-tone, altered, symmetrical diminished, etc.) are a great bonus, but just a bonus. You will have to figure out how to use those scales and modes in certain harmonic contexts. I would have to say that a tutor will be a great help for you to figure out how to use scales. What scale or mode to use when you made a chord substitution is another story. Learn the role of each scale degree and how you can weave out melodies. There are a few interesting YouTube videos featuring Larry Carlton giving some insight into how to be able to improvise (including weaving out motifs and finding the roots, the fifths, etc. of a chord on the fretboard.) Of course, arpeggios will be on the way. 

    3) Specialized  training - training to play guitar : Learn the different chord shapes (CAGED system) and chord qualities (maj, min, sus2, sus4, etc.). You put the two together and you will be able to play a great number of open/floating chords/harmonic possibilities, ... 'cause that's how it works on a guitar in (standard) tuning.

I highly recommend that you cover (2) and (3) in the same time interval because it's the only way they can work - together.

    4) Practice phrasing. Noodling is easy, but improvising true melodies that say something is a skill to be mastered. Learn call-and-response and how to link phrases together. Personally, I got stuck at guitar phrasing on spot. I can do it vocally, but I can't do it on the instrument.

    5) Look for different exercises for scale fingering, speed-licking, weaving arpeggios, etc. Practice, practice, practice. Learn other people's compositions and solos because you can use their phrases like words in your sentences and alter them at will.

    6) Learn about different musical styles and their history, how they evolved, who were the key figures and what they did for those styles, etc. Not sure if the world is looking for the next Michael Karoli, but I reckoned that's what you are aiming for.

You are looking at what may seem at first like a daunting, tall order. But discipline is key. 

I've probably missed something, but as Ry Cooder said, you never stop learning.

==============================================================

I'm going to post a link to this reply in http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91028&KW=improv&PN=1" rel="nofollow - my improv thread where you might  learn something.


Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 13:31
Thank you so much for taking your time!
What I mostly want to do is melodic rock. Sorry for the cliche but Mr. Gilmour is my absolute favourite and influence. Though I don't want to be exactly the same, I'm not going to reach the same skill and being a copy isn't fun, but he's a big example for me. 
Therefore, I think point 4) is most important for me, but I'll definitely go through them all.

I got one question though: is it more useful to know a lot about chords or about scales? 


-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"


Posted By: pitfall
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 13:49
They are as intimately linked as bangers and mash. Best to have both at the same time.


Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 13:51
Well.... that is answered in Dayvenkirq's post (point #2), including my first reaction to your last question: get a tutor to help you out. You don't need to go to a tutor for ever, but it's how I learned playing guitar and bass properly (after 10 years of piano lessons). Go to a tutor once a week for say 3-4 months, and then schedule shorter sequences of 3-5 lessons every once in a while. With your basis that should work out fine.

-------------
http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 14:14
Originally posted by DDPascalDD DDPascalDD wrote:

Sorry for the cliche but Mr. Gilmour is my absolute favourite and influence.
And I thought Pete Townshend was a cliche choice.

Originally posted by DDPascalDD DDPascalDD wrote:

What I mostly want to do is melodic rock. Sorry for the cliche but Mr. Gilmour is my absolute favourite and influence. Though I don't want to be exactly the same, I'm not going to reach the same skill and being a copy isn't fun, but he's a big example for me.
Pick the qualities you love the most about his style: how sparse or dense his parts are, how he handles his dynamic range, etc. Dave has a background in blues music, started off as an OK psych guitarist skill-wise, but in a matter of several years blossomed into a bit more proficient, more melodic player. He was taking advantage of slides, bends, and blues and whole-tone scales and developed his own sense of rhythm.

Originally posted by DDPascalDD DDPascalDD wrote:

Therefore, I think point 4) is most important for me, but I'll definitely go through them all.
From a purely technical perspective: 
In that case I highly recommend you to find a really good tutor, but one that suits your needs, your learning curve, whether your learning style is visual or kinesthetic. Learn some bits and pieces written by other people or come up with some boring or interesting bits of your own.

From a purely intimate, more human perspective: That's a tough one for me, I'm not gonna lie. I can recall only one truly good melody I came up, and I wrote that one. All the great melodies I've heard are all slow/mid-tempo, simple and elegant. They depend heavily on the sound of the instrument and the player's technique/methods of playing a note or going from one note to the next. They do not rely on speed. But that's just my perspective, and it's coming from someone who was a Floyd fan. It's almost like magic. With that being said, pulling a magic trick on spot shouldn't be impossible if you listen to your instrument and figure out what chords/notes/harmonics/techniques sound best on it.

Originally posted by DDPascalDD DDPascalDD wrote:

I got one question though: is it more useful to know a lot about chords or about scales?
The way I see it: they are like two hemispheres of one brain - inseparable.

 - Let's say you focus solely on chords. How are you going to make melodies now? Using boring arpeggios?
 - Let's say you focus solely on scales. How are you going to develop a sense of harmony? Do you have a band that's going to back you up with a beat and a root/slash note or a groove? Can you make sure your notes won't sound out of place?

A good solo is like a piece of jewelry: the chords are the chain, but the notes are the gems. 

Also, if you can see a scale in its boxed, ascending, or descending form, you can see its corresponding chord in a corresponding shape. If you can see a chord, you can figure out a scale. Scale -> chord. Chord -> scale. Kapish? (One or two people on this forum would probably argue this point, but I'm willing to hear them out.)

If you must insist on me making my choice between the two, then I say: you have to figure it out on your own. If you like to harmonize a lot (which doesn't sound like you, because you want to focus on soloing), learn more about the chords. If you want some sweet, fancy intonations, learn more about the scales. That's why I like using the whole-tone and altered scales on top of V when resolving. But only you can figure out a way to express your true musical self.




Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 14:20
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

I have some thoughts on that. Give me an hour.
Basically this for me, but it might be a little later than that.

-------------
https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Ozark Soundscape
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 14:26
1. Turn in your guitar and buy a turntable
2. Turn in your turntable and buy a guitar



But seriously, if you have the money find a good teacher in your area.


Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 15:24
@Dayvenqirk: What I like most about Gilmour is that his solo's can stand on their own, solely melody is enough to enjoy and analyse. Most clearly on Shine On (first solo). 
Though sometimes I think something I'm never sure of: for such (not too fast and) melodic solos, it's more the musical feeling than the technique/experience of playing.

In general: I'm not sure I'm able to go to a tutor. I just don't want to quit piano lessons and those two at the same time won't work.


-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 16:20
Yes a good teacher can be important and all the other suggestions are fine.   But the single best way to improve on an instrument ~ especially a rock- or jazz-oriented one like guitar, bass or drums ~ is to play with others of a similar level.  

Join or form a band.




-------------
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 16:23
Nothing will replace human interaction when it comes to learning, huh? ... I wish I knew that in advance.


Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 16:26
^That's a very good one actually. Now that you say it I see oppurtinities to play a lot with others! 

-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 16:32
^ There you go. You are 15. Take advantage of the fact that you've got a lot of time ahead of you, but don't procrastinate. Get in touch with any of the local guitar or keyboard/piano players, someone who is friendly and willing to share, preferably someone who is into the same kind of music that you want to take on when learning to improvise.


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 22:34
Alright. Some tips.

1. Write parts you have trouble playing and play them with a click track or metronome. If you have trouble with them, play them slow. 

2. Come up with parts based on novel ideas that are idiomatic to the guitar. For instance, melodies using only harmonics. Not that that hasn't been done, but things like that help you think outside the box.

3. Stretch your improvising skills by putting some kind of limit on yourself. I did this subconsciously by starting on non-chord-tones and using as many I could just because I liked the sound. Think about limits you can place on yourself and come up with ideas in those limits.

4. Learn to play and sing at the same time. Being able to contextualize melodies with what you're playing on guitar can help your melodic ear.

5. Buy a loop station or find some way to do the following: Write a chord progression. Record and loop it. Play over it ad nauseam. Find licks you like over it. 

6. Remember that music is sound. As much as noodling and practicing unplugged by yourself helps. It helps to practice with an amp and also with other people. One thing about improvisation is that, in a band setting, it's very much about feeding off of people's ideas. If the drummer plays a triplet fill, you can play a triplet lick, or interact with it some other way. You can harmonize with the bassline. You can create crazy noises to match the energy of what the other band members are doing. 

7. Transcription. Transcribe solos, riffs, melodies, chord progressions from anything of any genre, even if it's not on guitar or guitar isn't even present in the recording. Film scores, jazz, classical, pop songs, whatever catches your ear. 

The main thing that made improvement very natural for me was that playing guitar was almost synonymous with writing songs from the outset. Before I learned any songs, I learned a few chords and arranged a chord progression out of them. I transcribed several different things (and developed good ears thereby) because I wanted to write songs with that mood or emotional resonance. I learned a good bit of theory along the way, so I knew many scale/mode names and the theory behind them, but I didn't practice scales as much as people might think because I listened to a good deal of music that was modal or in strange scales and wrote stuff based on the sound of those songs myself such that I eventually got a feel for how they laid on guitar and how to use the anyway. I wrote parts that were technically hard for me to play and improved my technique that way. I got into avant-garde music and wrote plenty of that and came back to tonal music with increased versatility. I listened to a lot of music (still do) and imitated things I heard.

But the experience I did have with one particular teacher was invaluable. My final tip: If you go looking for a teacher, look for a good jazz teacher. They'll usually have more tricks up their sleeve in terms of improvisation and soloing than a rock or classical one. (Just don't imitate their tendency to turn the tone knob all the way down Tongue).


-------------
https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Ozark Soundscape
Date Posted: January 02 2016 at 22:40
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

You are 15.
Holy sh*t someone younger than me.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 03 2016 at 00:16
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

4. Learn to play and sing at the same time. Being able to contextualize melodies with what you're playing on guitar can help your melodic ear.
I thought about ear-training, but then I just forgot about it. They say ear-training can help you a great deal to identify intervals (maj 2nd, min 3rd, maj 6th, dim 5th, etc.) so that you can have some memory bank of reference to the root of the chord currently being played as you are playing a melody (at least that's the way I understood it). I suppose it's that natural limitation on my discipline that has kept me away from any chance of becoming a better player.
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

7. Transcription. Transcribe solos, riffs, melodies, chord progressions from anything of any genre, even if it's not on guitar or guitar isn't even present in the recording. Film scores, jazz, classical, pop songs, whatever catches your ear.
I used to write scale/mode degrees (instead of fret numbers) on tablature. Not that it helped me much. Ermm But go with whatever works for you, Pascal.


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 03 2016 at 00:46
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

7. Transcription. Transcribe solos, riffs, melodies, chord progressions from anything of any genre, even if it's not on guitar or guitar isn't even present in the recording. Film scores, jazz, classical, pop songs, whatever catches your ear.
I used to write scale/mode degrees (instead of fret numbers) on tablature. Not that it helped me much. Ermm But go with whatever works for you.
Er. The typical usage of "transcription" by musicians/music educators really just means learning things by ear, regardless of whether or not you write them down. You're transcribing the music onto your instrument, if you will. I don't write anything down either. 

-------------
https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 03 2016 at 01:57
^ I write scale degrees in a melody down so that when I go back, read, and play them I will remember what a b3 or a 5th or a b13th sounds like in that melody.


Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: January 04 2016 at 10:39
Thanks a lot guys, this will truly help me!
One question along the way:
I want to play the following chord on guitar: a C minor with an added second (d) and an E flat in the bass. I could leave the E flat because it will also be played by other instruments, but preferrably with. Also downtuning is gonna be pretty hard concerning other chords I have to play. How could I play this chord (in the most easy way)?

-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 04 2016 at 10:46
6th fret on A string, 5th fret on D string, 5th fret on G string, 3rd fret on B string

or, for more of a stretch,

11th fret on low E string, 10th fret on D string, 7th fret on G string, 8th fret on B string


-------------
https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 04 2016 at 18:12
Originally posted by DDPascalDD DDPascalDD wrote:

Thanks a lot guys, this will truly help me!
One question along the way:
I want to play the following chord on guitar: a C minor with an added second (d) and an E flat in the bass. I could leave the E flat because it will also be played by other instruments, but preferrably with. Also downtuning is gonna be pretty hard concerning other chords I have to play. How could I play this chord (in the most easy way)?

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

6th fret on A string, 5th fret on D string, 5th fret on G string, 3rd fret on B string
This one has the b3rd missing. Sounds more like a sus2 than a minor chord.

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

11th fret on low E string, 10th fret on D string, 7th fret on G string, 8th fret on B string
Also missing the b3rd, and is harder to play due to a greater finger stretch.

Assuming you want to play in the standard tuning, there is no easy way to fret Cmadd9/Eb. 

Originally posted by DDPascalDD DDPascalDD wrote:

Also downtuning is gonna be pretty hard concerning other chords I have to play. How could I play this chord (in the most easy way)?
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I'm guessing what you meant is this: you don't want to change the tuning of the 6th string (low E) since the other chords you want to play will depend on that string.

I would say that you are at a disadvantage here since you want to play the chord on a guitar in a standard tuning.

Now, if other instruments will play the Eb, you leave the Eb in the bass and focus on the Root, b3, and 9th of the Cm:

or or  or with Eb
E|-----------------------10-------------------10------------
B|-3---------------------8---------------------8------------
G|-0------7-------------8---------------------8-------------
D|-1------5------------10--------------------10------------
A|-3------6-------------------------------------------------
E|---------8----------------------------------11------------ 

The last variation of the chord (11-x-10-8-8-10) you can play (assuming you are a righty) by holding the right index finger on the 11th fret, muting the 5th string, and playing the chord with the right thumb. Clumsy - yes, but if you want that Eb in the bass, ... the choice is yours.



Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 04 2016 at 18:28
Eb is the flat 3rd. I put it as the bass note, thus there is no need to put it anywhere else (unless it sounds better the other way). 

-------------
https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: January 04 2016 at 18:33
^ Ah, yes, you are right. Got a lot on my mind. Then we can go with [x-6-5-5-3-x].


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: March 20 2016 at 05:59
Basically, this will take a minimum of 10 years, and ideally it should take the rest of your life. Oh yes, and it'll cost a lot of money.

Still interested ? ;-)

I get 1001 people saying "I wish I could play the sax." Strangely, all of them have never actually bought a sax. I then offer to take them to a music shop, if they bring about a grand I can get them started on a good basic sax: they then just have to practice for the rest of their lives. No takers so far. ;-)


-------------



Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 20 2016 at 20:15
The unspoken fact is that playing an instrument is physically painful and, eventually, can even be a burden.   A musician ~ even an amateur ~ is often expected to play, perform, entertain, demonstrate, educate, all at the drop of a hat and with no time to warm-up or compensation to be had.   It can go from being a rewarding and pleasurable journey to a monkey on one's back that constantly expects attention.

This concludes my bitter disillusioned rant.



-------------
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 21 2016 at 00:06
Originally posted by DDPascalDD DDPascalDD wrote:

Thank you so much for taking your time!
What I mostly want to do is melodic rock. Sorry for the cliche but Mr. Gilmour is my absolute favourite and influence. Though I don't want to be exactly the same, I'm not going to reach the same skill and being a copy isn't fun, but he's a big example for me. 
Therefore, I think point 4) is most important for me, but I'll definitely go through them all.

I got one question though: is it more useful to know a lot about chords or about scales? 

Both.  Gilmour is basically a blues guitarist, so learn Major and Minor chords, and the Blues scale, and you will be on your way.  

Most important thing is not to get frustrated, but since you are already a keyboardist, you should do OK.


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: March 21 2016 at 04:47
CStack is right, there. 

Regarding learning guitar. 

I play sax, guitar, bass, flute and keyboards. Been playing 40 years. 

My best advice about learning a musical instrument is this: get an MP3 player. Immerse yourself in music of all tastes. Listen to the music, play along with it in your head and then on an instrument. After a LONG time, you will develop all the skills needed to improvise and will have an enormous back catalogue of ideas in your subconscious to call on. That's what takes a long time in becoming a musician. 

There are several stages. In the first stage, you are constrained by the physical limitations of learning to play the instrument. After you get over that, you are then constrained by an adherence to the music - ie., you've immersed yourself in tab and can't think without it, you have no ideas of your own. Throw the tab or sheet music away. Third stage. You begin to learn to improvise and this means a lot of time and mistakes. Fourth stage, you just play. An idea automatically pops up and comes out of the instrument. It takes quite some time to get there. 

Equipment.

Most novice musicians fall into the trap of trying to compensate for lack of skill by buying equipment. They simple must have guitar X, with capacitor Y's in it, they must use these strings, this amp and this tuner. Guitarists are especially prone to this. Truth be told, 95% of guitarists can't play beyond tab or strumming a few simple chords. Not many improvise. You can sit in a music shop all day and hear one or two people doing something new or novel. Pretty poor figures. Avoid music forums as much as you can, for example, the Moog one is just nasty and most guitar forums are full of unpleasant people telling you you must do this or that and that they're subtly better than you. NO amount of equipment is a substitute for skill.

Practice

Ginger Baker practices drums for 30 minutes a day. His argument is that musicians fall into the trap of overpractising one riff or beat. Scales are like times tables. Know them ? Stop practicing them, or you will fall into the trap of "scales go up and then down" - I've known people who just practice scales for 50 years.... C D E F G A B C / C B A G F E D C . They never learn anything at all. Do NOT rely on sheet music and realise that it's not the scale, the scale is just the framework. Really, it's the idea which drives the music, the scale and chord progression naturally follow. 

All musical theory is useful in the same way that higher mathematics is useful. You don't have time on stage, when improvising, to refer to music theory. An idea comes in your head, you play it. That's all that's required. Have a nodding relationship with theory but no amount of theory will make you a musician. Ditto sheet music. Sheet music is a representation of music, not music itself. It's like saying knowing the words in a book give you the ability to write a novel. Sheet music is seen as the be all and end all to a lot of musicians: they lean on it and tab like a crutch. Take the sheet music away, they can't play Baa Baa Black Sheep. Some musician. 

There are 1001 other things I could come up with but..... the most important one is NEVER play to be famous or rich or make money. Play for the music. If you don't play for the music, you will produce worthless crap. 

Finally, be yourself.

You could lock yourself in a room for 15 years and learn every single note Jimi Hendrix ever played. You could then go out and play them, oscilloscope perfect. And guess what ? You would produce nothing of any worth whatsoever. That makes you a guitar copyist and a fantasist, not a guitarist. 



-------------



Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: March 22 2016 at 15:17
^Thanks so much. I really need to pick up on learning guitar, not a lot of time lately but I really want to play better. 

One thing that is extremely annoying is my timing, it's crap. Over all the years that I've played piano and other instruments, I've played 85% totally solo (practicing at home mostly or on stage solo), 10% with other people (lots of different formations) and 5% "studio" (in my bedroom, but recording for songs that I make). Therefore I developed a timing which doesn't fit with a metronome. Let me make my point clear, if you hear a pianist playing Chopin, the tempo moves up and down whole the time, that's how it should kind of. Now, I don't want to record with a frustrating metronome in my ears (makes it to robotic and not "free" enough) but timing every instrument perfectly is almost undoable for me.
How can I fix this? Are there any tricks perhaps?


BTW, it's not any problem when playing "live" in a group, just recording over other self-recorded tracks.


-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"


Posted By: pitfall
Date Posted: March 22 2016 at 17:36
I don't believe in "tricks" when it comes to becoming a better musician.
It's really just about hard work and focus.
Recording to a regular pulse isn't 'boring', it's a skill that needs to be learnt, in the same way that playing outside of a fixed rhythm  has to be learnt in order to do it well.


Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: March 22 2016 at 18:52
^^ I don't know if that's the case, but I used to have that kind of problem with recordings and I thought I couldn't play right but it was the recording software that was slow and added some delay. I changed the software and it was fine.

It's funny, I've been playing the guitar for 13 years (and constantly learning) but I'm spending a lot of time with keyboards lately. Like with any instrument, it requires a lot of practice and patience to become good and despite some very useful advice here, I believe there's more than one way to learn it. For me it's mainly learning songs from other artists (mostly by ear and not note by note) and going to concerts... and then assimilate the knowledge and improvise, improvise, improvise Tongue Practicing scales "up and down" is useful in the beginning, to find your way in the fretboard but after a while I think it's pointless. Nowadays, when I learn a new scale I study the progression and improvise.


Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: March 23 2016 at 08:44
I think the software is right, it's more like many notes are a tad too late or early. It's very annoying if you can't get it right enough to liking. Of course I have to practice and improvise a lot; but what is a good way of practicing to improve my timing?

-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"


Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: March 23 2016 at 08:49
Let's put a link so you can hear it. This is about the best I can get it, start at 2:47 :  http://https://soundcloud.com/pascal-dool/03-how-many-eau-clog/s-4kJca" rel="nofollow - https://soundcloud.com/pascal-dool/03-how-many-eau-clog/s-4kJca

-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"


Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: March 23 2016 at 09:11
Try to play more softly and don't think much about what you're playing. 


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: April 01 2016 at 02:31
Throw the metronome out of the window. 

Beginners make the mistake of learning to rely on the metronome, rather than listening to the music. You can't do both. The only time a metronome might come in useful is if you're playing without reference to any other instrument and need to keep time. Metronomes are made to be sold by companies to beginner musicians who think they need metronomes, as the company has told them they do. 

Keeping time with a band is an acquired skill. It comes with practice. Half listen to the drummer. Half listen to everything else. Feel the music and relax. 

Don't worry about being slightly off beat, file under "syncopation". Not everything - if you're a guitarist - has to be on beat. This is music, not precision engineering. 

The sticky out thing on your leg is a foot. Learn to tap it. That is an acceptable substitute. 


-------------



Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 01 2016 at 04:33
I'm probably the worse person to give advice on playing the guitar because after owning guitars for 50 years and extensive one-on-one lessons with a very good guitar tutor I still cannot play the damn thing. For some reason the fingers on my left hand lack the necessary dexterity (and "memory"), and following a motorcycle accident as a teen my right hand is not as flexible as it should be so strumming is also difficult. (I know, this is a poor excuse - just look at Django Reinhardt Wink)

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

The unspoken fact is that playing an instrument is physically painful...
...truest statement ever made about learning an instrument.

Learning to playing the guitar really hurts, especially as your finger-tips haven't become hardened and calloused. In the beginning you'll find that the pain comes long before any fatigue so the important thing is not to be brave and fight through the pain as that can lead to blisters and cuts, even though the rest of your body wants to keep playing. Either of those two injuries can stop you playing for days while they heal and that puts you back to square-one when you start again. Therefore don't practice for long stretches but break them up into shorter periods with rest intervals to recover, four half-hour practices a day are better than a continuous two-hour one. 

Also, as a beginner you'll be pressing down on the strings far more than you need too and that increases the pain and limits how long you can practice for. I found that not only were my fingertips suffering as a result of this, I developed aches in all the joints in my hand, especially in the thumb. My tutor helped a lot here, advising me to ditch the Fender Squier I was playing because the D-profile of the neck was too deep for me, he also advised on the type of strings to buy, how to set up the guitar with the right action (height of the strings above the fretboard) and recommended replacing the strings frequently and cleaning every time them before playing. Simply changing guitar was a remarkable improvement, the thinner neck meant I wasn't gripping as tightly and my fingers weren't over-reaching, I was still pressing too hard on the strings but he said that would only improve with time and practice. 

Alas it never did and regardless of how much I practised my playing remained wooden and unpleasant to listen too. Some people are not cut out to be guitarists and sadly I'm one of them.

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 

This concludes my bitter disillusioned rant.

And mine too. Wink


-------------
What?


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 01 2016 at 04:45
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

The sticky out thing on your leg is a foot. Learn to tap it. That is an acceptable substitute. 
I asked a guitarist friend what was the best advice he was ever given and his reply was "keep tapping your foot"


-------------
What?


Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: April 01 2016 at 05:33
Reminding you that this advice is extremely helpful!

I'm trying to practice most as I can, it seems better to just practice a lot than keep asking how to practice exactly. Although I've been playing for a while especially my hand on the fretboard hurts quite quickly, just a few bends and the skin wants to leave my finger...
Tapping with my feet is indeed probably way better, I tended to not use it at first; I find it distracting but probably I'll need to just get used to it. This might be actually the reason of my timing-problem!

Oh and by the way, I never used a metronome anyway (I wasn't clear I think).
Do you think it's best to first record every other instrument and then guitar?


-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 01 2016 at 05:48
Originally posted by DDPascalDD DDPascalDD wrote:

Do you think it's best to first record every other instrument and then guitar?
There are no hard and fast rules here. Though usually rhythm tracks are recorded before any melody tracks, then lead and solos are recorded last. If your piece has rhythm guitar then record that early as it is a guide for everything else and acts as "a place-keeper" for verse, chorus and bridge sections.

As odd as it sounds the rhythm guitar is sometimes more useful as "the time-keeper" than the drum or bass so recording a rhythm guitar guide track before recording the drum track can be an advantage .. or having the rhythm guitarist play along while recording the drums (or bass) just to keep the drummer (or bassist) on course. If you are not using a real drummer then obviously that's unnecessary.


/edit:
Originally posted by DDPascalDD DDPascalDD wrote:

Tapping with my feet is indeed probably way better, I tended to not use it at first; I find it distracting but probably I'll need to just get used to it. This might be actually the reason of my timing-problem!
That's probably because as a piano player your feet are used on the pedals so are not used to keeping time. Guitarists feet don't do a great deal (except stomp on fx pedals) so can be used to mark time more effectively - more so than drummers even as they use their feet to play kick drum and high-hat so don't maintain a steady on-the-beat tapping.


-------------
What?


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: April 01 2016 at 09:47
Good point about the keyboard players' feet, never thought of that.

If you get used to tapping on the beat with your feet, you feel the music much more than with a ticky-tick metronome. And it's all about feeling the music. 

It used to be that I could keep time with my right leg, but if I used my left, my timing was off. ;-)

As a PS yes, your fingers will initially hurt. This is normal. So go owwwww and feel that warm glow associated with doing that bit right. ;-) Good job you're bending strings. Lots of guitarists, sorry, "guitarists".... don't. They think they can get away without doing so. Uh uh. 

The point about learning an instrument is that there is a price to pay, whether in time, money or pain, to get to a certain point. You're paying in pain and some frustration at the moment. This, again, is normal. You'll find lots of musicians, sorry, "musicians" who expect there's some kind of magic short cut. This is like picking up a Japanese dictionary and thinking there's a magic way to learn to speak fluent Japanese in two weeks. Some magic formula which unlocks everything. Yeah, well. Right. ;-)

Dean is 100% right in that there are no hard and fast rules about how to record a song and in what order. It's whatever works, and that comes with experience, and occasionally, at 3 in the morning when you have the idea for a guitar riff, drum break, nose flute solo, whatever. It's all personal. I come up with a riff which drives a song or a chord progression which leads to ideas, or hear a drum pattern which starts something off, and it all goes from there. Don't worry about it, it sorts itself out. ;-) You'll notice there are composers' threads on this board - "how to do it" - and I don't subscribe to the idea that there is a set way to compose or record or play music, as that generally produces .... formulaic pieces. It's all about inspiration and intuition. That comes with practice and experience. 

Oh yes, really, there are no teachers for this kind of thing. There are people who can show you ideas and techniques, but the only person who will really teach you anything - by repetition, practice, trial and error.... is you. Most people think learning an instrument is a set task, you do A, you do B, you've learnt to play. It's not like that. It's an evolutionary process where you can go as deep or as shallow as you want to. But you WILL get there, with the correct attitude. And a lot of bloody minded determination. 

And good luck. ;-)




-------------



Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: April 02 2016 at 11:34
I recommend keeping time by tapping your tongue to the roof of your mouth. Callouses are the most thing! It should only take a couple weeks for callouse to emerge. Don't use moisturizing soap! Don't play straight after getting out of the shower.

-------------
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: April 03 2016 at 10:13
Originally posted by DDPascalDD DDPascalDD wrote:

To all guitar players or people who know about it:
What is the best way to learn to play guitar?

I want to focus the most on electric guitar and making solos. I've got some musical knowledge because I play piano for about 8 years so that must help me I guess.

Any help will be appreciated!

If you want to specifically learn how to solo on guitar, I would start with learning the pentatonic (or blues) scale.  It's a simple pattern (with a couple variations) that you can easily move anywhere on the neck to play in different keys.  And as the saying goes, playing blues guitar takes a minute to learn and a lifetime to master.  There are tons of examples on the net (just search for "pentatonic scale guitar") including youtube videos that will show you exactly how it works.  

Next, I'd suggest a program like Band-in-a-Box which is a wonderful learning tool.  You can easily setup your "backup band" to play a I-IV-V progression in seconds then use the pentatonic scale to solo over it until you eventually fall over from exhaustion LOL  

The biggest thing that opened up the world of guitar soloing for me back in 1980 was when I bought a book and learned the pentatonic scale.  And just because it's known as a "blues" scale doesn't mean it's limited to the blues.  When you hear Gary Green or Steve Howe ripping those fantastic rocking solo's back in the 70's, the basis of those are the pentatonic scales.  Best of all, nowadays with the resources of the internet, you don't need a book and will find youtube ready and willing to be your guitar teacher any time of the day or night. 

Best of luck and rock on Wink


-------------
https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987


Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: April 03 2016 at 10:57
^Yeah I know the minor pentatonic and blues scale, and it us indeed easy to learn and makes it simple to sound very cool. But now mastering it...     

I'll try Band-in-a-Box, only one question. If you solo over different chords, do you keep using a scale over the tonic?

-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"


Posted By: pitfall
Date Posted: April 03 2016 at 15:06
Like the "blues scale", the minor and major pentatonics have been run into the ground by overuse.
Everyone tends to use them, but the better the player, the less they use such cliches.
Go into any guitar shop on a Saturday and 90% of what you hear will be minor pentatonics.


Posted By: DDPascalDD
Date Posted: April 03 2016 at 15:35
^I know and yes, it sounds fairly cliche. I try to use it as a "bridge" only, but it's hard to never use it.

-------------
https://pascalvandendool.bandcamp.com/album/a-moment-of-thought" rel="nofollow - New album! "A Moment of Thought"


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: April 03 2016 at 16:19
Originally posted by DDPascalDD DDPascalDD wrote:

^Yeah I know the minor pentatonic and blues scale, and it us indeed easy to learn and makes it simple to sound very cool. But now mastering it...     

I'll try Band-in-a-Box, only one question. If you solo over different chords, do you keep using a scale over the tonic?

It really depends on what feeling you're after.  If you want to remain rooted in one scale, you should try to choose a scale that encompasses the roots of the chords that will be changing underneath it.  For example, soloing in C major will sound pleasing over the C major diatonic chords (C, dm, em, F, G7, Am, Bdim, C - in other words the chords that are made up of strictly the notes of the C major scale) because the notes in C major all correspond to the roots-3rds-5ths-7ths of those chords.  In other words, every note you play in C major will somehow directly relate to the diatonic chords underneath.  Soloing in Am (or the more abbreviated A minor pentatonic scale) over those same chords will give you that rock/blues feel that is so pleasing.  Basically for the same reason, the notes in A minor pentatonic (or Am) all relate to the C major diatonic chords moving underneath but in a different twist.  You can also get really advanced in choosing a scale by incorporating modes, but that's a more advanced theory discussion.  Actually, playing the A minor pentatonic scale over C chords is playing the Aeolian mode so playing the blues is actually more theory literate than anyone imagined.  Zappa was known to play extended solos in the Lydian mode, often whether it was related to the chords underneath or not LOL

So what to do if you're trying to solo over a chord progression that features chords outside the diatonic scale underneath?  That's the million dollar question!  There are many approaches.  When that non diatonic chord comes up, you can jump out of your scale and emphasize the root or any note of that chord...returning to your scale when the chord moves to the next.  You can ignore the change and find something in your scale that feels dissonant in an interesting way.  Or you can go full on advanced theory mania as guys like Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Yngwie etc do and say, "this chord is actually the 2nd of the Phrygian mode with a flat 7th so I'll play a D dorian over this chord and resolve to an A mixolydian here blah blah blah."  That stuff just makes my head spin so I don't go there.

Simply put, just experiment!  Play, Play, Play!  That's why Band-in-a-Box is so great...you can quickly setup a chord progression that will repeat until Armageddon if you like, change it up...does the C major scale still work for you if you play it over C, F, and Gm?  If not, why?  Try the C pentatonic scale over a diatonic chord progression in F#.  Do you like it?  If not just slide your scale around until you find something that speaks to you.  

Above all, remember Frank Zappa's advice, "The ultimate rule ought to be: if it sounds GOOD to you it's bitchin'.  If it sounds BAD to you, it's sh*tty" Wink

Have fun!
Dennis


-------------
https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd. - http://www.webwiz.co.uk