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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2015 at 23:45
Sorry, David, but I think you are kind of arguing around the topic, as if to say what is wrong if the kids protest per se.  No, indeed, nothing wrong if they engage the professor in such a confrontational manner but they would get more sympathy if the cause they were fighting for was actually admirable.  Halloween costumes, seriously?  Really how far removed is this from school kids protesting somebody wore a costume just to make fun of him and not getting into the spirit of things?  Don't like their costumes...well, wear one that you think won't go down well with them.  I have seen a video shot in a London commuter train where a British lady, most likely drunk, actually abused a Pakistani sitting next to her for his race, claiming he was stealing their jobs and all that.  He simply started chanting Pakistan Zindabad to give her the rise.  What the lady said was wrong but how a person responds to such barbs also reveals a lot about themselves.  

Edited by rogerthat - November 10 2015 at 23:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:14
More sympathy.  Hmm.

Yes, dignity and class can be good things.   But not always.   Much is being missed and misperceived  around these problems, and no one person has lived all of it to fully grasp both sides.   We all love to judge.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:15
What also baffles me is that while these people will get upset to the point of almost emotional collapse over a white guy wearing a sombrero at a private party, or a book in the studen library that contains a refernce to rape or a a racist term, you'll never see them actually protesting against the brutal treatment of women and ethnic minorities in other countries that the US allies itself too.

I suspect many couldn't find Saudi on a map, but will know the every thought and Tweet of Caitlyn Jenner. Perhaps they don't want to make an issue of Saudis beheading women in the street and locking up rape victims, incase their fellow cult members think they're being racist and excommunicate them!
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:18
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

More sympathy.  Hmm.

Yes, dignity and class can be good things.   But not always.   Much is being missed and misperceived  around these problems, and no one person has lived all of it to fully grasp both sides.   We all love to judge.


Not always, yes, but throwing a hissy fit over what somebody wore at a Halloween party does not paint a pretty picture at all.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:23
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

What also baffles me is that while these people will get upset to the point of almost emotional collapse over a white guy wearing a sombrero at a private party, or a book in the studen library that contains a refernce to rape or a a racist term, you'll never see them actually protesting against the brutal treatment of women and ethnic minorities in other countries that the US allies itself too.

I suspect many couldn't find Saudi on a map, but will know the every thought and Tweet of Caitlyn Jenner. Perhaps they don't want to make an issue of Saudis beheading women in the street and locking up rape victims, incase their fellow cult members think they're being racist and excommunicate them!

Pl see my other comment about many of these students possibly being quite privileged in their own right, in spite of what their race or ethnic background may suggest.  I may be over judging this but I wouldn't be surprised if this is what was actually happening.  'Soccer' moms and dads give these children the best in everything and when they have to negotiate things in campus, they have problems because they are not trained to do that.  To be in a position where they don't automatically get what they want.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:25
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

What also baffles me is that while these people will get upset to the point of almost emotional collapse over a white guy wearing a sombrero at a private party, or a book in the studen library that contains a refernce to rape or a a racist term, you'll never see them actually protesting against the brutal treatment of women and ethnic minorities in other countries that the US allies itself too.

I suspect many couldn't find Saudi on a map, but will know the every thought and Tweet of Caitlyn Jenner. Perhaps they don't want to make an issue of Saudis beheading women in the street and locking up rape victims, incase their fellow cult members think they're being racist and excommunicate them!

That's a stretch.  If you think these same students and their comrades in other universities are unconcerned about beheadings and injustice to rape victims, you may be more out-of-touch than you assume.  Just today I overheard a mixed-race guy of about twenty lambasting the Israeli position on the Palestinians; I mean this guy was angry and serious, and convinced the Israeli's feel a, in his words, "Religious entitlement".   He may be right, or he may be historically inept.   But there is currently no lack of political will, global and local, among college age people.





Edited by Atavachron - November 11 2015 at 01:07
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:27
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Emails are one of the mediums of modern debate and protest.   Flickering light on a screen is no less powerful than any other mode of communication.   Television has proved that over and over again.
All it is is communication. Which can include verbal abuse, but that was not present here. I was contrasting with the atrocities that prompted the more extreme measures of the Civil Rights movement. 

The way these students are reacting to simple ideas is counterproductive. It can act as a form of punishment for anybody who expresses ideas that are different from their own. And if those with different ideas do not express those ideas, they cannot be persuaded otherwise, unless they come across a persuasive argument themselves, nor can their valid ones be heard if they have them. It suffocates any kind of discourse on the subject. 

The faculty member went specifically to hear the students' opinions and to explain his own. What he got was not at all any sort of discourse, but punishment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:28
^LOL I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.





Edited by Atavachron - November 11 2015 at 00:29
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:35
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^LOL I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.




Indeed, in older times, perhaps the professor wouldn't have had the proverbial Damocles sword of media outrage hanging over his head because it's Yale and simply refused to suffer these students politely.  He was trying too hard to be nice to them when he could have simply said it's Halloween and you guys sort it out between yourselves and don't bother me about it again.  Nor should he be.  Unless anybody got ragged or bullied during the Halloween party, unless anybody actually got denied entry into the party on account of their race, the professor shouldn't be involved at all.  

His wife's mistake may have been to open the discourse in the first place when she could have simply toed the line laid out by the Yale establishment and stayed right out of the mess.  And then may be get called a bureaucrat for that but she could have saved her backside that way.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:37
I've not a single time called anybody spoiled or naive, so you can stop the public masturbation. 

Edited by Polymorphia - November 11 2015 at 00:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:38
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^LOL I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.
I've not a single time called anybody spoiled or naive, so you can stop the public masturbation. 

Don't knock masturbation; it's sex with someone I love.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:39
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^LOL I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.
Indeed, in older times, perhaps the professor wouldn't have had the proverbial Damocles sword of media outrage hanging over his head because it's Yale and simply refused to suffer these students politely.  He was trying too hard to be nice to them when he could have simply said it's Halloween and you guys sort it out between yourselves and don't bother me about it again.  Nor should he be.  Unless anybody got ragged or bullied during the Halloween party, unless anybody actually got denied entry into the party on account of their race, the professor shouldn't be involved at all.  

His wife's mistake may have been to open the discourse in the first place when she could have simply toed the line laid out by the Yale establishment and stayed right out of the mess.  And then may be get called a bureaucrat for that but she could have saved her backside that way.

Well yeah, in a way, that's exactly right.  And even though that seems a trivial and simplistic observation, it's fairly on the money.  Reality is what it is, and if we ignore it will bite us hard on the ass


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:42
I get that.  But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic.  Um, exactly how is internet not a part of the same reality?  So...the reality is that perhaps a parent on these students is a prog rock fan and reading this topic and feeling his/her blood boil at the things said about precious.  Well, fair dinkum, huh.  If something goes viral, any tom, dick and harry can express an opinion on it.  And now, there's now college admin to complain to to stop them from doing so.  Which is why the professor's advice was perhaps more sage than you give it credit for.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:46
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^LOL I'm starting to wonder who the spoiled, naive ones really are.
I've not a single time called anybody spoiled or naive, so you can stop the public masturbation. 

Don't knock masturbation; it's sex with someone I love.

Ah, when one becomes one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:46
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I get that.  But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic.   

Ermm  How is that contradictory?

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 00:51
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I get that.  But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic.   

Ermm  How is that contradictory?


Of course it is.  If you have no objection to the students using whatever mode of protest they see fit to vent their anger, what's wrong with a bunch of people commenting on the news story about it?  For reasons best known to yourself, you give the impression of going to great lengths to shield the students from criticism, urging everyone not to judge them even though one of the students actually called the prof disgusting, a highly judgmental thing to say.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 01:00
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I get that.  But what I find funny is you go to these great lengths to defend the outrage of students in the same breath that you keep blasting people who have expressed their views (adversely) on this topic.   

Ermm  How is that contradictory?
Of course it is.  If you have no objection to the students using whatever mode of protest they see fit to vent their anger, what's wrong with a bunch of people commenting on the news story about it?  For reasons best known to yourself, you give the impression of going to great lengths to shield the students from criticism, urging everyone not to judge them even though one of the students actually called the prof disgusting, a highly judgmental thing to say.

That's a circular argument if I've ever heard one.  If you want to play that game, ask yourself why you so strongly object to my stance.  We could do that all night, y'know?






Edited by Atavachron - November 11 2015 at 01:01
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 01:07
You started with the circular arguments, resorting to 'reality bites' when I pointed out that in earlier times, even this courtesy may not have been afforded to students.  Sorry, David, I respect your contributions to this website and various forum discussions but you are completely off the rocker today.  I am just going to say it out flat and I am sure I am not the only one who felt so in this discussion.  Maybe you can pause, take a deep breath and read back what you wrote at a later stage.  Or maybe not, the choice is yours because, hey, I am not a modern, intolerant, militant, easily offended liberal.  But I am done with this topic because my day is just getting to the half way mark and I have things to do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 01:09
Okay -

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2015 at 03:04
Scott Alexander, a blogger who's been a sharp critic of the more toxic aspects of modern left-wing culture in large part because he's a former right-libertarian before turning left and as a result used to be on the receiving end of constant harassment from left-wing activists, has already mounted a counter-argument against that article and others like it. He finds articles like Conor Friedersdorf's suspicious, because they often take issue with the (in Alexander's view) least objectionable aspects of modern social justice activism, and are often coming from established high-ranking academics who are not that much at threat from activists.

The relevant quote:

Quote
The only thing that elite SJ-criticism is really willing to take on is trigger warnings, which happen to be one of the pieces of social justice I really like and have defended at length.

I lost the link, but someone compared the coverage of two recent social justice scandals. First, users on Tumblr bullied a fan-artist to the point where she attempted suicide, because she drew a cartoon character too thin and so was “erasing fat people” – and these users continue to defend their actions and say that anyone who objects doesn’t understand that you can’t fight structural oppression without breaking some eggs. Second, some students at Yale got angry at an administrator who said she wasn’t going to enforce cultural sensitivity on Halloween costumes, and yelled and threw stuff at her and her family.

I feel for anybody who gets yelled at and has stuff thrown at them, but the first of these two stories seems by far the most important; lots of teenagers commit suicide every year because of bullying, the idea that somebody deserves to die because they picture a cartoon character differently is abominable, and anyone who’s been on the relevant parts of the Internet knows this kind of thing is common as dirt. If I were a news editor, I’d consider the first study a much bigger deal.

Instead, the second has gone viral in the national media, and the first remains stuck among the same few second-tier sites and SJ-critical nobody bloggers whom these kinds of things are always stuck among.


The comments field is long as hell, but it actually has Conor Friedersdorf dropping in to argue with Scott Alexander.
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